Gaza and Israel suffer deadliest day

[CBR250]

Some posts removed due to limits on quoted material.

 

I mean to say the the IDF Airplanes missiles lack the engineering ability to isolate a single house in a congested area. Also engineers can't go anywhere near the area many times, as it will be too risky for the "boots on the ground" forces. The houses are not destroyed due to crimes, but due to the fact they are used to store missiles and used as missile factories.

Going back to 2001-2005 actions by the Israeli government, before it even withdrew from Gaza, is irrelevant to what we are discussing, I agree some of these actions were indeed wrong, but that's completely different than the ways and reasons discussed here.

 

Are you seriously comparing the IDF current defensive actions after Israel being constantly attacked by rockets, after everything I wrote and posted, to the Holocaust and what the Nazi did to 6 million jews?

 

 

You did not need to explain that you meant missiles. Of course I accept that the engineering options are then far more limited. Well, yes there are indeed some parallels that even you must acknowledge. Thank the stars that we will probably never see an exact parallel of those times again, but today the treatment meted out to Palestinians shows similarities to the inhumanity of that dark period of Europe's history. Both situations involve(d):

- the murder of innocent civilians - including women and children - who have done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and share a religion / ethnicity despised by those in power.

- the gratuitous destruction of the property of innocent people by military thugs.

- the theft of valuables (in this case, farms, water and other traditional livelihoods).

- the use of a highly organised propaganda machine to attempt to portray the victims as lesser human beings, and to deceive the rest of the world about what is happening.

- a government organised campaign to encourage or force them to leave - or be punished.

- imprisonment without trial.

 

And of course German Jews did not fire rockets, but in the eyes of the German people in the 1930s Jews were destroying the safety and well-being of the people of Germany.

 

I am pleased that you do acknowledge the policy of punitive demolishing of houses in 2001-5 was not really acceptable. It does show your efforts to be even handed. However, it it has been reported in the Washington Post that this policy has in fact been re-introduced last week. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

 

The final point of disagreement I have over your last post is that the current IDF actions are defensive. It is not only me who is questioning how "defensive" it is to launch an armada of the most advanced weaponry in the world against backyard explosives with no accurate launching capacity and a few AK47s - the UN and non-aligned nations have also been condemning the IDFs current actions.

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by CBR250

[kblaze]

 

Well, at least if you wrote "165 innocent children have been killed in the past 17 days", you could have sounded just a bit less biased and one-sided.

I'd like to ask you just 2 questions, please just take a moment answer these:

Do you know the IDF warns (to evacuate) all civilians in a specific area before they enter it, by throwing hundreds of thousands of warning leaflets from planes, calling the area residents' home and mobile phones, sending SMSs and using very powerful audio announcement systems?

Do you know Hamas instructs all those people to stay at home, even if they have to sacrifice their lives?

 

 

Given how many times I hear that Hamas forces people to be "shields", can we agree that Gazans are hostages in a sense? 

 

Now imagine a guy terrorizes a neighborhood driving like a madman, hits and kills a couple kids, causes lots of damage. He grabs 3 kids and turns to face the police. Do the police open fire and take them all out? Maybe.. I really don't know.

 

But this is what my mind keeps thinking of when I envision being a human shield. How far off am I?

[Asiantravel]

Yesterday, Navi Pillay, the UN rights chief told an emergency session of the council on Wednesday that Israel's military actions in Gaza could amount to war crimes.

 

Shortly thereafter, the 47-member council voted (and adopted) a draft resolution titled "Ensuring respect for international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" to conduct an investigation whether Israel is indeed engaging in war crimes. Note: this was a vote just to conduct an investigation, nothing more nothing less, no military intervention, no aid, nothing: just an attempt to get some information aside from the constant propaganda barrage.

 

29 states voted in favour of the investigation and 17 abstained, including many EU states. 1 voted against. Guess which one.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626

Edited July 24, 2014 by Asiantravel

[dr_lucas]

 

 

Well, at least if you wrote "165 innocent children have been killed in the past 17 days", you could have sounded just a bit less biased and one-sided.

I'd like to ask you just 2 questions, please just take a moment answer these:

Do you know the IDF warns (to evacuate) all civilians in a specific area before they enter it, by throwing hundreds of thousands of warning leaflets from planes, calling the area residents' home and mobile phones, sending SMSs and using very powerful audio announcement systems?

Do you know Hamas instructs all those people to stay at home, even if they have to sacrifice their lives?

 

 

Given how many times I hear that Hamas forces people to be "shields", can we agree that Gazans are hostages in a sense? 

 

Now imagine a guy terrorizes a neighborhood driving like a madman, hits and kills a couple kids, causes lots of damage. He grabs 3 kids and turns to face the police. Do the police open fire and take them all out? Maybe.. I really don't know.

 

But this is what my mind keeps thinking of when I envision being a human shield. How far off am I?

 

 

Yes, you are not so far off, some of them are indeed Hamas hostages in a sense.

If that guy terrorizes the neighborhood with a gun (which is a better analogy), kills a couple of kids, causes lots of damage and grabs 3 kids, then turn to face the police with gun and keep shooting, the police will take the guy out of course. They will do their best not to hurt the kids while shooting him, but they may get injured or killed in the process, it has happened before.

How would you have handled the situation if you were the police in this case?

Edited July 24, 2014 by dr_lucas

[Jay Sata]

some of the pro Israel bluster on here verges on the surreal.

 

Meanwhile in the UK

 

 

 

Today British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond warned the Israeli Prime Minister that the West is becoming 'less and less sympathetic to Israel' as the number of Palestinians killed in the conflict continues to rise.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703938/The-West-less-sympathetic-Israel-Britain-s-warning-Netanyahu-concerns-grows-rise-civilian-deaths-Palestine.html#ixzz38OhpxbXt 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

 

An Israeli shell has hit a UN-run school used to shelter hundreds of Palestinian refugees in Gaza, killing 15 and injuring dozens who were seeking shelter from fierce clashes on the streets outside.

Pools of blood soiled the school courtyard, amid scattered books and belongings and there was a large scorch mark in the courtyard marking the place where one of the tank shells hit. 

Although the Israeli army had reportedly been given the co-ordinates of the school to prevent such an incident, the shells landed on the school where families had gathered in the courtyard expecting to be evacuated shortly in a Red Cross convoy.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703938/The-West-less-sympathetic-Israel-Britain-s-warning-Netanyahu-concerns-grows-rise-civilian-deaths-Palestine.html#ixzz38Oi0PKx1 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Such is the propaganda war being fought by Israel even the truth is suppressed.

 

The names of children killed in Gaza have been banned from being read out on Israeli radio.

They formed part of an advert by human rights organisation B'Tselem.

But the Israeli Broadcasting Authority banned the radio advertisement saying the ad's content was 'politically controversial'. 

In its appeal, B'Tselem demanded to know what was controversial about the item. 'Is it controversial that the children [aren't] alive? That they're children? That those are their names? These are facts that we wish to bring to the public's knowledge.'

It intends to petition Israel's supreme court on Sunday in an effort to get the ban overturned.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703938/The-West-less-sympathetic-Israel-Britain-s-warning-Netanyahu-concerns-grows-rise-civilian-deaths-Palestine.html#ixzz38OiH8f2s 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[rijit]

 

You miss the point completely, but then, you don't want to get the point. Like all pro-Israelis you point blank refuse to see the immense inequity between the two sides, the huge difference in defence or attack capability, and the greatly disproportionate amount of damage/death inflicted in this tit-for-tat long-running conflict.

 

 

I totally agree with you on this point, which makes me wonder why Hamas continue day in day out to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel, knowing that the end result can only have one possible outcome?

 

 

Which perhaps suggests that the political side of hamas has little control or say over the military side, that its structured something like the ira was or wasn't in Ireland during its peak under the same umbrella  but not controlled/managed  by the same rules or bodies   if you get my drift.

[Johpa]

can you at least summarize that wall of text? not all of us have 15 minutes to read a post. 

 

For those textually challenged, the Quran and the commentaries make it quite clear that it is the religious duty of all Muslims to eliminate with predjudice all non-believers.

 

With all due respect to the great Thai academic Stanley Tambiah, he had little clue as to what a world conquoring religion is all about.  That crescent moon symbol used to represent Islam is not really a crescent moon as Islam arose in opposition to the tribes in the Saudi Peninsula that were polytheistic and worshipped lunar deties. The more literal representation of that symbol can be seen on the Saudi flag.

 

Islam's greatest ally in the war against non-believers is the post-modern meme of cultural relativism.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Johpa

[dr_lucas]

 

 

You miss the point completely, but then, you don't want to get the point. Like all pro-Israelis you point blank refuse to see the immense inequity between the two sides, the huge difference in defence or attack capability, and the greatly disproportionate amount of damage/death inflicted in this tit-for-tat long-running conflict.

 

 

I totally agree with you on this point, which makes me wonder why Hamas continue day in day out to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel, knowing that the end result can only have one possible outcome?

 

 

Which perhaps suggests that the political side of hamas has little control or say over the military side, that its structured something like the ira was or wasn't in Ireland during its peak under the same umbrella  but not controlled/managed  by the same rules or bodies   if you get my drift.

 

 

So you suggest that the Hamas political wing actually wants no rockets shot into Israel while Hamas military wing wants to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183165#.U9Em4vmSxWo

Edited July 24, 2014 by dr_lucas

[kblaze]

 

 

 

Well, at least if you wrote "165 innocent children have been killed in the past 17 days", you could have sounded just a bit less biased and one-sided.

I'd like to ask you just 2 questions, please just take a moment answer these:

Do you know the IDF warns (to evacuate) all civilians in a specific area before they enter it, by throwing hundreds of thousands of warning leaflets from planes, calling the area residents' home and mobile phones, sending SMSs and using very powerful audio announcement systems?

Do you know Hamas instructs all those people to stay at home, even if they have to sacrifice their lives?

 

 

Given how many times I hear that Hamas forces people to be "shields", can we agree that Gazans are hostages in a sense? 

 

Now imagine a guy terrorizes a neighborhood driving like a madman, hits and kills a couple kids, causes lots of damage. He grabs 3 kids and turns to face the police. Do the police open fire and take them all out? Maybe.. I really don't know.

 

But this is what my mind keeps thinking of when I envision being a human shield. How far off am I?

 

 

Yes, you are not so far off, some of them are indeed Hamas hostages in a sense.

If that guy terrorizes the neighborhood with a gun (which is a better analogy), kills a couple of kids, causes lots of damage and grabs 3 kids, then turn to face the police with gun and keep shooting, the police will take the guy out of course. They will do their best not to hurt the kids while shooting him, but they may get injured or killed in the process, it has happened before.

How would you have handled the situation if you were the police in this case?

 

 

no idea. been asking myself everyday.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

Well, at least if you wrote "165 innocent children have been killed in the past 17 days", you could have sounded just a bit less biased and one-sided.

I'd like to ask you just 2 questions, please just take a moment answer these:

Do you know the IDF warns (to evacuate) all civilians in a specific area before they enter it, by throwing hundreds of thousands of warning leaflets from planes, calling the area residents' home and mobile phones, sending SMSs and using very powerful audio announcement systems?

Do you know Hamas instructs all those people to stay at home, even if they have to sacrifice their lives?

 

 

Given how many times I hear that Hamas forces people to be "shields", can we agree that Gazans are hostages in a sense? 

 

Now imagine a guy terrorizes a neighborhood driving like a madman, hits and kills a couple kids, causes lots of damage. He grabs 3 kids and turns to face the police. Do the police open fire and take them all out? Maybe.. I really don't know.

 

But this is what my mind keeps thinking of when I envision being a human shield. How far off am I?

 

 

Yes, you are not so far off, some of them are indeed Hamas hostages in a sense.

If that guy terrorizes the neighborhood with a gun (which is a better analogy), kills a couple of kids, causes lots of damage and grabs 3 kids, then turn to face the police with gun and keep shooting, the police will take the guy out of course. They will do their best not to hurt the kids while shooting him, but they may get injured or killed in the process, it has happened before.

How would you have handled the situation if you were the police in this case?

 

 

no idea. been asking myself everyday.

 

 

No idea is obviously not an answer. You'd have to make a decision or you die or the kids die or other people in the neighborhood die until you do. How would you handle it?

[CBR250]

 

can you at least summarize that wall of text? not all of us have 15 minutes to read a post. 

 

For those textually challenged, the Quran and the commentaries make it quite clear that it is the religious duty of all Muslims to eliminate with predjudice all non-believers.

 

With all due respect to the great Thai academic Stanley Tambiah, he had little clue as to what a world conquoring religion is all about.  That crescent moon symbol used to represent Islam is not really a crescent moon as Islam arose in opposition to the tribes in the Saudi Peninsula that were monotheisic and worshipped lunar deties. The more literal representation of that symbol can be seen on the Saudi flag.

 

Islam's greatest ally in the war against non-believers is the post-modern meme of cultural relativism.

 

 

Monotheistic AND worshipped lunar deities??? I hope all of your posts don't rely on similarly skewed misunderstandings of the world. And you clearly didn't write the last sentence - your literacy level isn't up to it. But would you mind explaining what you believe it means? I cannot see how cultural relativism is an ally of any religion. It is just a concept. In fact, it seems to me that the concept is in direct oppposition to the monotheistic religions with their god-given moralities. But I await enlightenment from your pen....
 

[dr_lucas]

 

But I await enlightenment from your pen....

 

 

 

And I await enlightenment from yours on my questions and the real subject discussed.

[JDGRUEN]

Yesterday, Navi Pillay, the UN rights chief told an emergency session of the council on Wednesday that Israel's military actions in Gaza could amount to war crimes.

 

Shortly thereafter, the 47-member council voted (and adopted) a draft resolution titled "Ensuring respect for international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" to conduct an investigation whether Israel is indeed engaging in war crimes. Note: this was a vote just to conduct an investigation, nothing more nothing less, no military intervention, no aid, nothing: just an attempt to get some information aside from the constant propaganda barrage.

 

29 states voted in favour of the investigation and 17 abstained, including many EU states. 1 voted against. Guess which one.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28437626

 

I assume you mean the constant propaganda barrage from the leftist news media of the EU and the U.S. pushed and prodded by radical Islamist interests - who constantly paint an Anti-Israel picture of each and every event in the so called non existent 'homeland' of the never existent country of Palestine - is that right? 

[Johpa]

The writing is on the wall and if Israel is concerned about its viability, it had better read what it says, or in a few generations it may end up alongside Yugoslavia, Bengal and Prussia on the scrap heap of history.

 

So your perhaps suggesting that groups such as the Slovenes, Serbs, Croats, Germans, and Bengalis are allowed to self-determination but that Jews are not?   And shall we talk about exchanges of population in Yugoslavia, South Asia, not to mention German groups in Slavic lands while forbidding such talk in the Levant?  So all these groups are allowed to ride the currents of history yet the Jews shall ever be condemned to eternal exile?  You see, it is thoughts such as your own which lead many to feel that there is always an element of the millenia-old western Christian element of anti-semitism in their condemnation of Israel, with the killers of Christ being condemned to wander for eternity.

[Jingthing]

...
You see, it is thoughts such as your own which lead many to feel that there is always an element of the millenia-old western Christian element of anti-semitism in their condemnation of Israel, with the killers of Christ being condemned to wander for eternity.

 

Really, there is NO doubt about that!

[Johpa]

 

 

can you at least summarize that wall of text? not all of us have 15 minutes to read a post. 

 

For those textually challenged, the Quran and the commentaries make it quite clear that it is the religious duty of all Muslims to eliminate with predjudice all non-believers.

 

With all due respect to the great Thai academic Stanley Tambiah, he had little clue as to what a world conquoring religion is all about.  That crescent moon symbol used to represent Islam is not really a crescent moon as Islam arose in opposition to the tribes in the Saudi Peninsula that were monotheisic and worshipped lunar deties. The more literal representation of that symbol can be seen on the Saudi flag.

 

Islam's greatest ally in the war against non-believers is the post-modern meme of cultural relativism.

 

 

Monotheistic AND worshipped lunar deities??? I hope all of your posts don't rely on similarly skewed misunderstandings of the world. And you clearly didn't write the last sentence - your literacy level isn't up to it. But would you mind explaining what you believe it means? I cannot see how cultural relativism is an ally of any religion. It is just a concept. In fact, it seems to me that the concept is in direct oppposition to the monotheistic religions with their god-given moralities. But I await enlightenment from your pen....
 

 

 

I have edited my writing as I clearly intended to contrast earlier polytheistic beliefs in the Peninsula with the monotheism of Islam. I apologise for my sloppiness.

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts.  The post-modernists tend to see all cultures in a relativistic light.  They imagine Islam to be no different than other monothestic religions as they can always find historical parallels between, say, Islam and Christianity.  They can point to the western educated woman wearing a hajib at a TED lecture and say something like "see, they are just like us, it is all relative".  But this causes them to miss the true relevance of the concept of Jihad to the world of Islam (Dar Al-Islam) and the long term unique existential threat that orthodox Islamic beliefs pose to their own world. And that I see as a tactical advantage to the forces of orthodox Islam.
 

[Ulysses G.]

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

He is confusing pretentious with "literacy". Just look at his posts. Johpa, you are clearly the more intelligent and better educated of the combatants, in this particular war of words. Edited July 24, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[CBR250]

 

 

Some posts removed due to limits on quoted material.

 

I mean to say the the IDF Airplanes missiles lack the engineering ability to isolate a single house in a congested area. Also engineers can't go anywhere near the area many times, as it will be too risky for the "boots on the ground" forces. The houses are not destroyed due to crimes, but due to the fact they are used to store missiles and used as missile factories.

Going back to 2001-2005 actions by the Israeli government, before it even withdrew from Gaza, is irrelevant to what we are discussing, I agree some of these actions were indeed wrong, but that's completely different than the ways and reasons discussed here.

 

Are you seriously comparing the IDF current defensive actions after Israel being constantly attacked by rockets, after everything I wrote and posted, to the Holocaust and what the Nazi did to 6 million jews?

 

 

You did not need to explain that you meant missiles. Of course I accept that the engineering options are then far more limited. Well, yes there are indeed some parallels that even you must acknowledge. Thank the stars that we will probably never see an exact parallel of those times again, but today the treatment meted out to Palestinians shows similarities to the inhumanity of that dark period of Europe's history. Both situations involve(d):

- the murder of innocent civilians - including women and children - who have done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and share a religion / ethnicity despised by those in power.

- the gratuitous destruction of the property of innocent people by military thugs.

- the theft of valuables (in this case, farms, water and other traditional livelihoods).

- the use of a highly organised propaganda machine to attempt to portray the victims as lesser human beings, and to deceive the rest of the world about what is happening.

- a government organised campaign to encourage or force them to leave - or be punished.

- imprisonment without trial.

 

And of course German Jews did not fire rockets, but in the eyes of the German people in the 1930s Jews were destroying the safety and well-being of the people of Germany.

 

I am pleased that you do acknowledge the policy of punitive demolishing of houses in 2001-5 was not really acceptable. It does show your efforts to be even handed. However, it it has been reported in the Washington Post that this policy has in fact been re-introduced last week. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

 

The final point of disagreement I have over your last post is that the current IDF actions are defensive. It is not only me who is questioning how "defensive" it is to launch an armada of the most advanced weaponry in the world against backyard explosives with no accurate launching capacity and a few AK47s - the UN and non-aligned nations have also been condemning the IDFs current actions.

 

 

 

Completely different. We are talking about the current round of violence specifically, I assume.

To define a killing as a murder, like you do, requires intent. Do you suggest the IDF intends to kill and deliberately targets and kill innocent civilians?

Property is destroyed in every war.

Theft? What theft are you talking about? Who steals what from who? What farms & water are being stolen, and how does that even remotely compared to the WW2 Nazi actions?

Which Israeli propaganda that tries to portray Palestinians as lesser human beings have you ever seen? And how is that propaganda even remotely similar to the Nazi racial doctrine?

Which government organized a campaign to encourage Palestinians or force them to leave - or be punished?

Who was imprisoned without trial?

 

The Nazis killed jews just because they were born jews, you should read "mein kampf" and the Goebbels propaganda to understand the huge differences.

 

The IDF actions are defensive, we'd have to agree to disagree on this. I am wondering, if you were Israel and have rockets fired into your city for months, what would you do that you consider a right action in your book?

 

 

OK - prepare for enlightenment.

1. Yes. The IDF knows full well that firing missiles, and heavy artillery from ships and tanks into the most heavily populated place on planet earth will result in the deaths of innocent civilians. Of women and children. Of medical and aid non-combatants. So, yes, they know they will kill these people. I have heard Israeli spokespersons saying it is unavoidable.They are not ignorant of the fact that will kill people who are non combatants.

2. In this war, Israel goes out of its way to destroy property, and has a policy to demolish houses of people who may have done nothing in support of either Hamas or Fatah. See the link on my previous post. In fact, you ACKNOWLEDGED that you were aware of this policy in earlier times. So how come you now pretend it is not an issue?

3. Theft. Land is an enormously valuable resource, more valuable than a few gold trinkets or a painting. And land owned by Palestinians is being stolen. Israel's "New Berlin Wall", for example, that runs for nearly 800 km, is built primarily on Palestinian, not Israeli, land. Theft.

4. As an example, and you can search for more, see Erica Jong’s (Jewish) chapter title in her book Fear of Flying, “Arabs and Other Animals”. Great, huh? You see the Nazi connection now?

5. Let me spell it out for you. Picture the following sequence of events. You are forced away from your family home of 5 generations into a refugee camp. Your house and the land it stood on is then bulldozed and used for building apartment blocks. No compensation is offered. Your new house in a refugee camp is then demolished to punish you for no crime on your part. The ancient olive trees on your land are chopped down by Israeli settlers while IDF soldiers stand by ready to attack anyone who dares to challenge them.

6. You dispute that Palestinians have been imprisoned without trial?????? Are you serious? No, don't answer, let me just assume that you have some form of momentary, mutliple neural failure that occurs in the face of anything uncomfortable about Israel. Seriously, I won't even bother answering this one. Do your own Google. There must be thousands of sources, including the most respected international human rights organisations, listing the on-going imprisonment of Palestinians - including children - without any semblance of a trial. 

7. First, not all Jews are born Jews - unless you are one of THOSE (and you may well be given the nature of some of your views). And no, I don't intend to read Goebbels. I don't need to. I can listen to Netanyahu, or Avigdor Lieberman if I feel like a large dose of BS mixed with hatred.

 

Of course there are major differences in the terrible experiences of Jews during the 1930s and 40s in Germany and the Palestinians today. However, as I noted, there are also similarities. Funny that you are so resistant to that reality. I would have hoped that as member of a people who had undergone the Holocaust you would be extremely sensitive to issues of human rights and respect. The treatment of the Palestinians indicates that the reverse is true for most Israelis.

 

OK - I have enlightened you. Does it change your views? I am pretty sure it won't. You seem to be intransigent when it comes to the issues of Gaza. A lot of Israelis are like that. A pity, because at the end of the day you and I do share something - a desire for Israelis to sleep safely and soundly each night. We differ significantly on what will be needed to make this happen. You want to shoot your way to peace. I think that's a pretty poor option.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

Some posts removed due to limits on quoted material.

 

I mean to say the the IDF Airplanes missiles lack the engineering ability to isolate a single house in a congested area. Also engineers can't go anywhere near the area many times, as it will be too risky for the "boots on the ground" forces. The houses are not destroyed due to crimes, but due to the fact they are used to store missiles and used as missile factories.

Going back to 2001-2005 actions by the Israeli government, before it even withdrew from Gaza, is irrelevant to what we are discussing, I agree some of these actions were indeed wrong, but that's completely different than the ways and reasons discussed here.

 

Are you seriously comparing the IDF current defensive actions after Israel being constantly attacked by rockets, after everything I wrote and posted, to the Holocaust and what the Nazi did to 6 million jews?

 

 

You did not need to explain that you meant missiles. Of course I accept that the engineering options are then far more limited. Well, yes there are indeed some parallels that even you must acknowledge. Thank the stars that we will probably never see an exact parallel of those times again, but today the treatment meted out to Palestinians shows similarities to the inhumanity of that dark period of Europe's history. Both situations involve(d):

- the murder of innocent civilians - including women and children - who have done nothing but be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and share a religion / ethnicity despised by those in power.

- the gratuitous destruction of the property of innocent people by military thugs.

- the theft of valuables (in this case, farms, water and other traditional livelihoods).

- the use of a highly organised propaganda machine to attempt to portray the victims as lesser human beings, and to deceive the rest of the world about what is happening.

- a government organised campaign to encourage or force them to leave - or be punished.

- imprisonment without trial.

 

And of course German Jews did not fire rockets, but in the eyes of the German people in the 1930s Jews were destroying the safety and well-being of the people of Germany.

 

I am pleased that you do acknowledge the policy of punitive demolishing of houses in 2001-5 was not really acceptable. It does show your efforts to be even handed. However, it it has been reported in the Washington Post that this policy has in fact been re-introduced last week. See: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html

 

The final point of disagreement I have over your last post is that the current IDF actions are defensive. It is not only me who is questioning how "defensive" it is to launch an armada of the most advanced weaponry in the world against backyard explosives with no accurate launching capacity and a few AK47s - the UN and non-aligned nations have also been condemning the IDFs current actions.

 

 

 

Completely different. We are talking about the current round of violence specifically, I assume.

To define a killing as a murder, like you do, requires intent. Do you suggest the IDF intends to kill and deliberately targets and kill innocent civilians?

Property is destroyed in every war.

Theft? What theft are you talking about? Who steals what from who? What farms & water are being stolen, and how does that even remotely compared to the WW2 Nazi actions?

Which Israeli propaganda that tries to portray Palestinians as lesser human beings have you ever seen? And how is that propaganda even remotely similar to the Nazi racial doctrine?

Which government organized a campaign to encourage Palestinians or force them to leave - or be punished?

Who was imprisoned without trial?

 

The Nazis killed jews just because they were born jews, you should read "mein kampf" and the Goebbels propaganda to understand the huge differences.

 

The IDF actions are defensive, we'd have to agree to disagree on this. I am wondering, if you were Israel and have rockets fired into your city for months, what would you do that you consider a right action in your book?

 

 

OK - prepare for enlightenment.

1. Yes. The IDF knows full well that firing missiles, and heavy artillery from ships and tanks into the most heavily populated place on planet earth will result in the deaths of innocent civilians. Of women and children. Of medical and aid non-combatants. So, yes, they know they will kill these people. I have heard Israeli spokespersons saying it is unavoidable.They are not ignorant of the fact that will kill people who are non combatants.

2. In this war, Israel goes out of its way to destroy property, and has a policy to demolish houses of people who may have done nothing in support of either Hamas or Fatah. See the link on my previous post. In fact, you ACKNOWLEDGED that you were aware of this policy in earlier times. So how come you now pretend it is not an issue?

3. Theft. Land is an enormously valuable resource, more valuable than a few gold trinkets or a painting. And land owned by Palestinians is being stolen. Israel's "New Berlin Wall", for example, that runs for nearly 800 km, is built primarily on Palestinian, not Israeli, land. Theft.

4. As an example, and you can search for more, see Erica Jong’s (Jewish) chapter title in her book Fear of Flying, “Arabs and Other Animals”. Great, huh? You see the Nazi connection now?

5. Let me spell it out for you. Picture the following sequence of events. You are forced away from your family home of 5 generations into a refugee camp. Your house and the land it stood on is then bulldozed and used for building apartment blocks. No compensation is offered. Your new house in a refugee camp is then demolished to punish you for no crime on your part. The ancient olive trees on your land are chopped down by Israeli settlers while IDF soldiers stand by ready to attack anyone who dares to challenge them.

6. You dispute that Palestinians have been imprisoned without trial?????? Are you serious? No, don't answer, let me just assume that you have some form of momentary, mutliple neural failure that occurs in the face of anything uncomfortable about Israel. Seriously, I won't even bother answering this one. Do your own Google. There must be thousands of sources, including the most respected international human rights organisations, listing the on-going imprisonment of Palestinians - including children - without any semblance of a trial. 

7. First, not all Jews are born Jews - unless you are one of THOSE (and you may well be given the nature of some of your views). And no, I don't intend to read Goebbels. I don't need to. I can listen to Netanyahu, or Avigdor Lieberman if I feel like a large dose of BS mixed with hatred.

 

Of course there are major differences in the terrible experiences of Jews during the 1930s and 40s in Germany and the Palestinians today. However, as I noted, there are also similarities. Funny that you are so resistant to that reality. I would have hoped that as member of a people who had undergone the Holocaust you would be extremely sensitive to issues of human rights and respect. The treatment of the Palestinians indicates that the reverse is true for most Israelis.

 

OK - I have enlightened you. Does it change your views? I am pretty sure it won't. You seem to be intransigent when it comes to the issues of Gaza. A lot of Israelis are like that. A pity, because at the end of the day you and I do share something - a desire for Israelis to sleep safely and soundly each night. We differ significantly on what will be needed to make this happen. You want to shoot your way to peace. I think that's a pretty poor option.

 

 

 

1. You have heard Israeli spokesperson saying it is unavoidable that innocent people may get injured or killed in cross-fire, as happens in any war, and this translates by you to intention to deliberately kill civilians? Do you have a link to the full thing that you heard and the name of the person you heard?

 

2. Again, this is your personal interpretation of the events. Houses are being destroyed, mostly because armed militants are hiding and shooting from those houses and there are rockets or rocket factories hidden in them. I acknowledged it was an issue before 2005 withdrawal, not that it's an issue nowadays.

 

3. The security border/barrier, or as you call it "the wall" is not built on any Palestinian lands in Gaza and we are discussing the current Gaza conflict at the moment, as I stated before.

 

4. No, I see no connection to this 1973 book from this lady (which I am quite sure most Israelis have never even heard of) which got nothing to do with Israel or its government. Is that all you got? Are you joking? And you relate an idiotic chapter from an idiotic controversial (jewish) writer that most Israelis don't even know and certainly don't  care about, to the Israeli propaganda? I will ask again: Which Israeli propaganda that tries to portray Palestinians as lesser human beings have you ever seen? And how is that propaganda even remotely similar to the Nazi racial doctrine?
 Wait, don't answer, as you clearly don't want to even know what the Nazi racial doctrine is, but you do want to compare Israel to the Nazis.

 

5. Let me spell it out for you. Israel is not occupying Gaza since 2005.

 

6. Palestinians have not been imprisoned but have been arrested without trial, I believe that's something that is being done everywhere in the world, you need to arrest and interrogate before you try.

 

7. About 99% of jews are born jews and you should read Goebbels before you even remotely think of ignorantly comparing Netanyahu or Avigdor Lieberman's views to Goebbels and the Nazis.

 

You keep assuming I am a Jew, so I'd probably surprise you by informing you that I am not.

 

Yes, we both desire  Israelis (and Palestinians) to sleep safely and soundly each night and I definitely don't want them to shoot their way into peace, just to shoot when they need to re-actively or proactively protect their lives, but you still didn't answer maybe my most important question:

If you were Israel and have rockets fired into your city for months, what would you do that you consider a right action in your book?

Edited July 24, 2014 by dr_lucas

[CBR250]

 

For those textually challenged, the Quran and the commentaries make it quite clear that it is the religious duty of all Muslims to eliminate with predjudice all non-believers.

 

With all due respect to the great Thai academic Stanley Tambiah, he had little clue as to what a world conquoring religion is all about.  That crescent moon symbol used to represent Islam is not really a crescent moon as Islam arose in opposition to the tribes in the Saudi Peninsula that were monotheisic and worshipped lunar deties. The more literal representation of that symbol can be seen on the Saudi flag.

 

Islam's greatest ally in the war against non-believers is the post-modern meme of cultural relativism.

 

 

Monotheistic AND worshipped lunar deities??? I hope all of your posts don't rely on similarly skewed misunderstandings of the world. And you clearly didn't write the last sentence - your literacy level isn't up to it. But would you mind explaining what you believe it means? I cannot see how cultural relativism is an ally of any religion. It is just a concept. In fact, it seems to me that the concept is in direct oppposition to the monotheistic religions with their god-given moralities. But I await enlightenment from your pen....
 

 

 

I have edited my writing as I clearly intended to contrast earlier polytheistic beliefs in the Peninsula with the monotheism of Islam. I apologise for my sloppiness.

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts.  The post-modernists tend to see all cultures in a relativistic light.  They imagine Islam to be no different than other monothestic religions as they can always find historical parallels between, say, Islam and Christianity.  They can point to the western educated woman wearing a hajib at a TED lecture and say something like "see, they are just like us, it is all relative".  But this causes them to miss the true relevance of the concept of Jihad to the world of Islam (Dar Al-Islam) and the long term unique existential threat that orthodox Islamic beliefs pose to their own world. And that I see as a tactical advantage to the forces of orthodox Islam.
 

 

 

Apology gratefully accepted. Refreshing really to have someone actually acknowledge an error of expression or meaning, however minor, in these debates.

 

Might I suggest that you try to write more naturally - your use of language in the second sentence is quite stilted and artificial.  Better to get your point across in simple language than risk confusing the reader.

 

Your explanation of a connection between Islam & relativism is a bit off track. Post-modernist thought would naturally agree that different religions are different, monotheistic or not - and support the idea that there are as many varieties of Islam as there of Christianity or Judaism. A good post-modernist would try to understand and explain what battles between ideas are happening within a religion. Michel Foucault is the main man for this, but his writing is a bit turgid.

 

Cultural relativism is an altogether different matter, more relevant to anthropology than political or social theory. Seperate from this is moral relativism, which refers to the idea that there is no universal good and bad, right and wrong. What is valued as a moral code at one moment in history, or by one culture, will change over time and across places. This clearly goes against orthodox monotheism, and suggests that those divine moral codes handed down to us can and do change. So while we might like to think we are following an age-old morality, it has usually been adapted significantly to fit our time.

 

 Anyway, this above is totally tangental. But as I appreciate your efforts to engage in respectful communication, I wanted to respond in a like manner. And be helpful. If you want to critique Islam, just do it. Don't mix it up too much with sociological theory. You probably have some valid points to make, as it seems you are a thinker - even if you are not (yet) a writer.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by CBR250

[Tywais]

Inflammatory rhetoric posts plus replies removed.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

can you at least summarize that wall of text? not all of us have 15 minutes to read a post. 

 

For those textually challenged, the Quran and the commentaries make it quite clear that it is the religious duty of all Muslims to eliminate with predjudice all non-believers.

 

With all due respect to the great Thai academic Stanley Tambiah, he had little clue as to what a world conquoring religion is all about.  That crescent moon symbol used to represent Islam is not really a crescent moon as Islam arose in opposition to the tribes in the Saudi Peninsula that were monotheisic and worshipped lunar deties. The more literal representation of that symbol can be seen on the Saudi flag.

 

Islam's greatest ally in the war against non-believers is the post-modern meme of cultural relativism.

 

 

Monotheistic AND worshipped lunar deities??? I hope all of your posts don't rely on similarly skewed misunderstandings of the world. And you clearly didn't write the last sentence - your literacy level isn't up to it. But would you mind explaining what you believe it means? I cannot see how cultural relativism is an ally of any religion. It is just a concept. In fact, it seems to me that the concept is in direct oppposition to the monotheistic religions with their god-given moralities. But I await enlightenment from your pen....
 

 

 

I have edited my writing as I clearly intended to contrast earlier polytheistic beliefs in the Peninsula with the monotheism of Islam. I apologise for my sloppiness.

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts. 
 

 

 

I personally love and really enjoy the way you write & express yourself in English, keep it up!

p.s. "I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic." classic!! ;)

Edited July 24, 2014 by dr_lucas

[CBR250]

 

If you were Israel and have rockets fired into your city for months, what would you do that you consider a right action in your book?

 

I'll let others (if anyone can be bothered to read this long-winded discussion) decide whether or not my earlier responses are adequate and logical. They can also decide if your subsequent comments justify any further response. I have concluded they do not. In a bar over a beer, maybe I would be prepared to follow up your areas of dispute. On my hot little keyboard I know when to draw a line under a discussion. My points stand.

 

But I will answer your final question (above).

 

For a start I wouldn't let it go on for months. At the first rocket I would want to know why the rocket was being fired. I would look for ways to negotiate an agreement to stop it occurring. If the rocket firers had grievances, I would listen to them. And let them know mine. I would work with respect and honesty to ensure we arrived at a win-win outcome.

 

Of course, this wouldn't work if I just wanted to steal their land and deny them normal human rights and hopes and aspirations. Although I could be really underhand and dishonest and pretend I was trying to find a solution for as long as possible without intending to. This would enable me to keep stealing their land. Of course, they might then decide to start firing rockets at me again.........

 

Negotiation is basically what all civilised countries would do. It's what mentally healthy neighbours do when they have a dispute, not ratchet it up until you have to burn down each others houses and kill each others children. And the biggest neighbour has the biggest responsibility to make sure it works.

 

 

[CBR250]

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts. 
 

 

I personally love and really enjoy the way you write & express yourself in English, keep it up!

p.s. "I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic." classic!!

 

Don't make fun of him. He's trying, and has as much right to express his views as you do - no matter how odd they may be.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts. 
 

 

I personally love and really enjoy the way you write & express yourself in English, keep it up!

p.s. "I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic." classic!!

 

Don't make fun of him. He's trying, and has as much right to express his views as you do - no matter how odd they may be.

 

 

I was not making fun of him at all, on the contrary, I was dead serious that I love the way he writes. I wish many more people would have written in this beautiful way.

I recall someone else was actually mocking him earlier...oh, right, that was you.

[CBR250]

 

 

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts. 
 

 

I personally love and really enjoy the way you write & express yourself in English, keep it up!

p.s. "I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic." classic!!

 

Don't make fun of him. He's trying, and has as much right to express his views as you do - no matter how odd they may be.

 

 

I was not making fun of him at all, on the contrary, I was dead serious that I love the way he writes. I wish many more people would have written in this beautiful way.

I recall someone else was actually mocking him earlier...oh, right, that was you.

 

 

Yes, but your own limited level of literacy precludes you from making any meaningful assessments. And I did not mock him. Shows the extent of your ability to comprehend the written word. Not that I needed more evidence.

I actually was quite supportive of his interest in engaging in discussion, as he approached the task with far more grace and sincerity than you do.
 

[dr_lucas]

 

 

 

 

I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic.

 

I can not provide you with enlightenment, that is a task for others.  But I can attempt and to explain and elaborate my thoughts. 
 

 

I personally love and really enjoy the way you write & express yourself in English, keep it up!

p.s. "I care not a whit as to how you or anyone else judge the level of my literacy although I am a bit confused regarding the ad hominen attack which I parse as being a tad oxymoronic." classic!!

 

Don't make fun of him. He's trying, and has as much right to express his views as you do - no matter how odd they may be.

 

 

I was not making fun of him at all, on the contrary, I was dead serious that I love the way he writes. I wish many more people would have written in this beautiful way.

I recall someone else was actually mocking him earlier...oh, right, that was you.

 

 

Yes, but your own limited level of literacy precludes you from making any meaningful assessments. And I did not mock him. Shows the extent of your ability to comprehend the written word. Not that I needed more evidence.

I actually was quite supportive of his interest in engaging in discussion, as he approached the task with far more grace and sincerity than you do.
 

 

 

I appreciate your vain responses, as always.

If this does not translate to mocking, I don't know what does:

onotheistic AND worshipped lunar deities??? I hope all of your posts don't rely on similarly skewed misunderstandings of the world. And you clearly didn't write the last sentence - your literacy level isn't up to it. 

 

Your own limited level of acceptance precludes you from making any meaningful conclusions or telling others what they are allowed to like or not.

[dr_lucas]

 

 

If you were Israel and have rockets fired into your city for months, what would you do that you consider a right action in your book?

 

I'll let others (if anyone can be bothered to read this long-winded discussion) decide whether or not my earlier responses are adequate and logical. They can also decide if your subsequent comments justify any further response. I have concluded they do not. In a bar over a beer, maybe I would be prepared to follow up your areas of dispute. On my hot little keyboard I know when to draw a line under a discussion. My points stand.

 

But I will answer your final question (above).

 

For a start I wouldn't let it go on for months. At the first rocket I would want to know why the rocket was being fired. I would look for ways to negotiate an agreement to stop it occurring. If the rocket firers had grievances, I would listen to them. And let them know mine. I would work with respect and honesty to ensure we arrived at a win-win outcome.

 

Of course, this wouldn't work if I just wanted to steal their land and deny them normal human rights and hopes and aspirations. Although I could be really underhand and dishonest and pretend I was trying to find a solution for as long as possible without intending to. This would enable me to keep stealing their land. Of course, they might then decide to start firing rockets at me again.........

 

Negotiation is basically what all civilised countries would do. It's what mentally healthy neighbours do when they have a dispute, not ratchet it up until you have to burn down each others houses and kill each others children. And the biggest neighbour has the biggest responsibility to make sure it works.

 

 

 

 

Your entire response just explains your logical point of view, when you assuming you have logical neighbors you can speak and negotiate with.

Now drop that assumption and picture neighbors who not only don't want to talk with you, but write on their own doors, books and everywhere else they possibly can that you have no right to exist and that everything that belongs to you actually belongs to them.

Now please answer the same question I asked.

[Jay Sata]

You cannot reason with these totally programmed people who cannot see the truth and reality outside their narrow blinkered

religious indoctrination.

 

 

There are lots of minority nations on this planet who have managed to live in peace and harmony.

 

However Israel was born from a minority religion and the guilt the western nations felt after WW2.

 

Roma gypsies,gay people and a substantial number of physical and mentally deficient people also suffered a terrible death in the holocaust but do not regurgitate it on a daily basis to make the world feel guilty.

 

This current conflict is born from the death of three immigrant so called settler hitchhikers who were murdered trying to get home in the occupied West Bank where according to the UN they had no right to be there.

 

[simple1]

 

 

 

 

Posts removed to enabe response.

 

I can accept a news report can be inaccurate, but it does quote IDF, again maybe inaccurate reporting.

 

"The IDF announced on Sunday that it was setting up a field hospital at the Erez border crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip. The field hospital was set to begin functioning at 8 p.m. on Sunday."

 

Forgive me, but I still find it a real challenge to believe 100s of doctors are allocated to a facility dedicated to ”serve mainly women and children and will include a delivery room”. If you insist it's true so be it.

 

Are there that many civilians expected to be transported to the Field Hospital for triage & treatment? If so confirms the reported volume of civilian women and child casualties that some are busily denying and saying its’ just Palestinian propaganda.

 

Again I say it's good that Israel is providing medical services for "enemy civilians". I would not expect otherwise; it is standard practice for democratic countries with professional armed forces.

 

 

I wish I took some pictures for you to believe it, but anyway, here is a more detailed report: http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-set-to-open-field-hospital-for-wounded-gazans/

As I said just above, your desire to know the accurate number of doctors, hundreds, thousands or 50, is just nitpicking and you simply seem to miss the main point.

As said by @Liviu: even there are, say, 36% of Israeli doctors, who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. The whole point is about Israel helping the injured.

 

 

One last time. I am not 'nitpicking' I am questioning your previous claims. Already stated three times respect for Israel efforts to treat the wounded and sick civilians that, by the way, should not be viewed as extraordinary. However, your, in effect over the top propaganda does not help. As someone has mentioned regards one of your claims 'blatant lie', I won't go that likely you made a claim based upon lack of facts, that you now seem to acknowledge.

Edited July 24, 2014 by simple1