Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[Kan Win]

I posted ;-

 

The Universal Coverage scheme, known as the gold card or 30-baht scheme.
 

in the Health section. 

 

Any info on this would be greatly apricated.

 

Win 

[Morakot]

I have a question about the certification of degrees.

 

For the PR application I have been told to have my university degrees certified by my embassy and then translated into Thai and certified by the Department of Consular Affairs.

 

Perhaps I didn't understand this properly. I am not sure what the British Embassy can say about my UK degrees. 

 

Any idea?

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Morakot

[Morakot]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:39 AM, cocoonclub said:

Thanks.
Did you check with immigration whether they accept the form?

This is the required form to be completed by a state hospital.

 

Medical cert_PR.pdf

[Dogmatix]

7 minutes ago, Morakot said:

I have a question about the certification of degrees.

 

For the PR application I have been told to have my university degrees certified by my embassy and then translated into Thai and certified by the Department of Consular Affairs.

 

Perhaps I didn't understand this properly. I am not sure what the British Embassy can say about my UK degrees. 

 

Any idea?

 

 

The British Embassy stopped offering this service many years ago. You have to get copies of your certificates certified by a solicitor or notary public in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in London. Then you can get a Thai translation done and have it legalised by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section here. MoFA will only legalise translations if the copy has been certified by the local embassy in Thailand or by the Thai embassy in the country of origin. Since the British Embassy is a dead loss, the only option open is the Thai Embassy in London.

[EricTh]

Are PR allowed to buy landed property (not condo) in his name in Thailand?

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Are PR allowed to buy landed property (not condo) in his name in Thailand?

No

[Morakot]

5 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

The British Embassy stopped offering this service many years ago. You have to get copies of your certificates certified by a solicitor or notary public in the UK, then legalised by the Thai Embassy in London. Then you can get a Thai translation done and have it legalised by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Consular Section here. MoFA will only legalise translations if the copy has been certified by the local embassy in Thailand or by the Thai embassy in the country of origin. Since the British Embassy is a dead loss, the only option open is the Thai Embassy in London.

Thank you kindly @Dogmatix!

 

I'm utterly astounded. That puts an end to my application!!

 

Since I don't even have UK notary certified copies that's the end of that by the looks of it.

 

 

 

[EricTh]

33 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

No

Then I don't see much advantage other than not renewing the yearly visa but if one pay so much money 191,400 baht just to get the PR, must as well just do a yearly visa.

 

We have to pay the same 1900 baht yearly fee for the residence book if we want to travel outside Thailand.

 

So it beats the purpose.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by EricTh

[Dogmatix]

49 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Are PR allowed to buy landed property (not condo) in his name in Thailand?

No.

[Dogmatix]

10 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Then I don't see much advantage other than not renewing the yearly visa but if one pay so much money 191,400 baht just to get the PR, must as well just do a yearly visa.

 

We have to pay the same 1900 baht yearly fee for the residence book if we want to travel outside Thailand.

 

So it beats the purpose.

 

Having PR protects you from rule changes which are a particular problem for retirees.  So, if you plan to retire in Thailand, that is helpful. It is good for people with their own small businesses because Immigration gives them a lot more grief than people working for large companies. If you are not married to a Thai, PR is the only route to Thai citizenship. For someone working for a large company who doesn't plan to retire in Thailand and is not interested in citizenship, I can see the attractions are more limited.

[ubonjoe]

19 minutes ago, EricTh said:

Then I don't see much advantage other than not renewing the yearly visa but if one pay so much money 191,400 baht just to get the PR, must as well just do a yearly visa.

The advantage is that you do not have to show all the required documents and financial proof to apply for a extension.

If working for example you only need your work permit to work instead of a stack of documents.

No money in the bank or such for a extension based upon retirement or marriage.

If married to a Thai it is only about 92k baht for residency.

Also no 90 day reports.

[EricTh]

12 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The advantage is that you do not have to show all the required documents and financial proof to apply for a extension.

If working for example you only need your work permit to work instead of a stack of documents.

No money in the bank or such for a extension based upon retirement or marriage.

If married to a Thai it is only about 92k baht for residency.

Also no 90 day reports.

 

Unfortunately, I am not married to a Thai but 92k is still a lot of money.

 

90 day reports isn't really a pain because we do it online nowadays.

 

 

[rimmae2]

1 hour ago, Morakot said:

Thank you kindly @Dogmatix!

 

I'm utterly astounded. That puts an end to my application!!

 

Since I don't even have UK notary certified copies that's the end of that by the looks of it.

 

 

 

I do not know the situation now but when I applied almost 10 years ago it was clear that some applicants did not submit all documents by the due date in December that year and submitted documents later.

 

More knowledgeable people than me may know if this is possible now. 

[Morakot]

Thanks @rimmae2! I'll check with immigration and see what they will say about this.

 

I found more details about the entire process and it looks like that document legalization can via done by post at the UK Legalisation Office (FCO).

https://www.get-document-legalised.service.gov.uk/select-service

 

They will accept original degrees or certified copies by an officer from the British Council. The legalised document from the UK's FCO should then be sufficient for the Thai MFA to approve an authorized translation. 

 

Of course this would take several weeks to send document from here to there and back.

 

--

Background info and shared frustration about the British embassy having stopped doing document legalization since 2018.

https://medium.com/elliots-blog/want-to-teach-in-thailand-get-your-degrees-legalised-before-leaving-the-uk-79cd8985901a

Edited December 5, 2021 by Morakot

[BKKBike09]

13 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

Unfortunately, I am not married to a Thai but 92k is still a lot of money.

 

90 day reports isn't really a pain because we do it online nowadays.

 

 

PR holders also:

 

1. don't have to bother with the TM30 nonsense (because PR holders go onto a standard blue Thai household registration book)

 

2. can (in normal times) register to use the e-gates at Suvarnbhumi which, if a frequent traveller, can be a big time saver.

 

3. if buying a condo, don't need to get the Central Bank letter stating that the funds were brought in for that purpose (which form is needed for repatriating said funds, unless things have changed recently)

 

PR is a hassle to apply for and is expensive but it offers a great deal of security to holders once obtained e.g. lose your job, don't need to worry about visa; get divorced, don't need to worry about visa etc.

 

Plus id doesn't expire if you leave Thailand, as long as you come back once a year. That's unlike many countries (eg Singapore) where you lose PR if absent for more than X number of years.

[EricTh]

1 hour ago, BKKBike09 said:

PR holders also:

 

1. don't have to bother with the TM30 nonsense (because PR holders go onto a standard blue Thai household registration book)

 

2. can (in normal times) register to use the e-gates at Suvarnbhumi which, if a frequent traveller, can be a big time saver.

 

3. if buying a condo, don't need to get the Central Bank letter stating that the funds were brought in for that purpose (which form is needed for repatriating said funds, unless things have changed recently)

 

PR is a hassle to apply for and is expensive but it offers a great deal of security to holders once obtained e.g. lose your job, don't need to worry about visa; get divorced, don't need to worry about visa etc.

 

Plus id doesn't expire if you leave Thailand, as long as you come back once a year. That's unlike many countries (eg Singapore) where you lose PR if absent for more than X number of years.

 

Are there any cases where a PR was granted to a person that is not paying income taxes?

 

[scorecard]

2 minutes ago, EricTh said:

 

Are there any cases where a PR was granted to a person that is not paying income taxes?

 

Well, going by the main very clear and well published criteria; evidence of several years of continuous work permits and evidence that all personal Thai income tax has been paid/cleared, and it being evident the work performed is considered to be contributing to the benefit/development of Thailand it seems doubtful that PR would be granted. And of course there's more criteria to qualify for Thai PR. 

 

Whether there's ever been a Certificate of Residence (PR) granted/issued on other grounds I don't know, a few others have deeper knowledge of the history of Thai PR, perhaps they might comment.

 

I'm aware of a PR holder who (perhaps 10 - 15 years ago) had a phone call from a farang who said he was aware the farang had PR and asked (strongly) that the farang with PR recommend him to be given PR. From my memory the callers claim that he should be given PR were supported (in his view) by:

 

   - Been to Thailand for short holidays several times.

   - Able to write poetry and wanting to write love poems about Thai folks.

   - Had 1 or 2 books of poems already published at his own expense in Europe (nothing to do with

     Thailand) but had never sold any copies.

   - Nice guy.

   - Wanted to have a Thai wife.

   - Wanted to start a home for abandoned pets, had some part-time experience with this in his EU          home country. 

   - Previously had a Thai gf short-term and had taught her and her family how to give hugs.

 

There are some (not many) cases where Thai citizenship/Thai passport has been granted outside of the published criteria. This happens in many countries.

 

One case, in Thailand, was a Caucasian woman (a former miss world) who was the girlfriend of a famous world ranked Thai tennis player. She was handed her Thai passport quickly after she arrived on Thai soil. They married and later divorced, what happened to her Thai nationality/passport I don't know.

 

Would that happen with Thai PR, I doubt it, PR and Citizenship are quite different babies.

 

 

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

PR holders also:

 

3. if buying a condo, don't need to get the Central Bank letter stating that the funds were brought in for that purpose (which form is needed for repatriating said funds, unless things have changed recently)

I don't need to fill in any forms for repatriate funds.

 

2 hours ago, BKKBike09 said:

Plus id doesn't expire if you leave Thailand, as long as you come back once a year. That's unlike many countries (eg Singapore) where you lose PR if absent for more than X number of years.

Well, the problem is that you need to have a re-entry permit (called Non-Quota Immigrant Visa) which has to be renewed every year. If you don't have it, your PR will be canceled upon re-entry in the Kingdom. 

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, EricTh said:

Are there any cases where a PR was granted to a person that is not paying income taxes?

Maybe under the category shown in the requirements for PR.

 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I don't need to fill in any forms for repatriate funds.

 

Well, the problem is that you need to have a re-entry permit (called Non-Quota Immigrant Visa) which has to be renewed every year. If you don't have it, your PR will be canceled upon re-entry in the Kingdom. 

Well the "problem"......   which "has to be renewed every year".

 

1). Yes a bit of a nuisance, but not a problem. Very easy to get the exit/re-entry stamp in your passport and in the PR book. Very mechanical, no interview, no need for higher level approval. There are many places where PR holders can get the exit/re-entry stamp.

 

2). You only need to have the exit/re-entry in your passport and PR book when you depart/return to Thailand. If a PR holder doesn't leave Thailand for a long period time then there's no need to have the exit/re-entry stamp for a long time.

 

There's probably several hundred PR holders in Thailand who have never had the exit/re-entry stamp or haven't had it for many years, because they travel very infrequently.

 

The stamp has 2 time 'variations'.

 

PR holders who intend to take a holiday/ attend a conference/an event etc., can get a 'single entry exit/re-entry' stamp (obviously can only be used for one return trip).

 

Or PR holders can get a 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp, which is good for 1 year for any number of trips from date of stamping into passport and PR book for the next one year.

 

Many business people who are PR holders get the 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp. You can get the 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp whenever you want, it doesn't have to align to the calendar year or any year. It doesn't have to align to the date of issue of PR. It doesn't have to align to the expiry date of any current 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

 

Are there any cases where a PR was granted to a person that is not paying income taxes?

 

In recent times I doubt it very much.  But going back to the origin of PR in the 1920s it was issued to Chinese immigrants coming off the boat, if they could prove they had a profession they could support themselves with.  There was no income tax at that time.

[Arkady]

Y

5 hours ago, Morakot said:

Thanks @rimmae2! I'll check with immigration and see what they will say about this.

 

I found more details about the entire process and it looks like that document legalization can via done by post at the UK Legalisation Office (FCO).

https://www.get-document-legalised.service.gov.uk/select-service

 

They will accept original degrees or certified copies by an officer from the British Council. The legalised document from the UK's FCO should then be sufficient for the Thai MFA to approve an authorized translation. 

 

Of course this would take several weeks to send document from here to there and back.

 

--

Background info and shared frustration about the British embassy having stopped doing document legalization since 2018.

https://medium.com/elliots-blog/want-to-teach-in-thailand-get-your-degrees-legalised-before-leaving-the-uk-79cd8985901a

Yes, copies of documents certified via the FCO's service are acceptable to Thai MoFA but still need to be further legalised by the Thai embassy in London as far as I know.  If you can get the copies certified by a solicitor or notary, it will be a lot quicker and you have more control over the process and much less loss of original document loss.  HMG is extremely careless about other people's documents. In addition to losing my birth certificate, they once lost the passports of an entire batch of applicants (hundreds of people) for indefinite leave to remain (PR) in the UK with no compensation or apology.  I think I saw something a service to get this done which used to include taking the documents to the Thai embassy but this can no longer be done as they only accept documents by mail.  The Thai embassy is also very good at losing documents. 

 

Immigration does allow you to submit certain documents after the deadline. This includes the more difficult to obtain ones like educational certificates and home country police clearance.

[jayboy]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

There's probably several hundred PR holders in Thailand who have never had the exit/re-entry stamp or haven't had it for many years, because they travel very infrequently.

 

Just to confirm your point, like many other PR holders I haven't traveled outside Thailand since mid 2019.Since then I have had no contact with Immigration, haven't reported to any other branch of the Thai government.I haven't in fact had to give my residential status in Thailand a single thought.If there was any doubt in my mind about the advantages of PR it's been dispelled in the pandemic.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

Just to confirm your point, like many other PR holders I haven't traveled outside Thailand since mid 2019.Since then I have had no contact with Immigration, haven't reported to any other branch of the Thai government.I haven't in fact had to give my residential status in Thailand a single thought.If there was any doubt in my mind about the advantages of PR it's been dispelled in the pandemic.

Back in the day I got my PR just before the Tom Yam Kung crisis. Friends and acquaintances had been ridiculing my obsession with getting PR as soon as I could despite expense and hassles, which were actually much less than today. Suddenly everything hit the fan and farangs lost their jobs left right and centre, including myself.  Losing their livelihoods was bad enough but losing immigration status and, in those days, even the right to buy your own mobile phone (most had company phones then as mobiles were still an expensive luxury) or vehicle made it panic stations for many people. For me nothing changed as far as my immigration status was concerned and I was able to buy my own phone and car without having to put them into Thai nominee names, as my friends had to. I also bought a condo without having to prove anything about the funds and got married without having to involve my embassy.

 

In those days before there was a route to citizenship for those with Thai wives without getting PR first, I always saw PR as a route to citizenship which I eventually achieved.  Now in the pandemic I haven't even bothered to renew my Thai passport which expired just as the lockdowns started last year. Hopefully it will be worth renewing and going on a trip next year.

 

Each to his own and it is understandable that PR is not worthwhile to some.  But everything for foreigners gets progressively harder in Thailand and every year I know of farangs who up stakes and leave after decades because they have had enough of being harassed by Immigration. Meanwhile, the PR and citizenship processes themselves have also been getting much more difficult.  Every year you procrastinate, it is possible that some new onerous requirement will be introduced.

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, Arkady said:

Back in the day I got my PR just before the Tom Yam Kung crisis. Friends and acquaintances had been ridiculing my obsession with getting PR as soon as I could despite expense and hassles, which were actually much less than today. Suddenly everything hit the fan and farangs lost their jobs left right and centre, including myself.  Losing their livelihoods was bad enough but losing immigration status and, in those days, even the right to buy your own mobile phone (most had company phones then as mobiles were still an expensive luxury) or vehicle made it panic stations for many people. For me nothing changed as far as my immigration status was concerned and I was able to buy my own phone and car without having to put them into Thai nominee names, as my friends had to. I also bought a condo without having to prove anything about the funds and got married without having to involve my embassy.

 

In those days before there was a route to citizenship for those with Thai wives without getting PR first, I always saw PR as a route to citizenship which I eventually achieved.  Now in the pandemic I haven't even bothered to renew my Thai passport which expired just as the lockdowns started last year. Hopefully it will be worth renewing and going on a trip next year.

 

Each to his own and it is understandable that PR is not worthwhile to some.  But everything for foreigners gets progressively harder in Thailand and every year I know of farangs who up stakes and leave after decades because they have had enough of being harassed by Immigration. Meanwhile, the PR and citizenship processes themselves have also been getting much more difficult.  Every year you procrastinate, it is possible that some new onerous requirement will be introduced.

Everybody has their own situation, concerns etc.

 

For me the main value of holding PR is that It's for life and I will never be separated from my wonderful Thai family because of some annual red tape item, new red tape item, money in the bank following many rules / new rules to renew a visa etc.

[onthemoon]

23 hours ago, scorecard said:

Well the "problem"......   which "has to be renewed every year".

 

1). Yes a bit of a nuisance, but not a problem. Very easy to get the exit/re-entry stamp in your passport and in the PR book. Very mechanical, no interview, no need for higher level approval. There are many places where PR holders can get the exit/re-entry stamp.

It's a major nuisance when you are at the airport, leaving for a business trip and that stamp has just expired. It means that the permanent residence is anything but permanent, it is only valid for a year - if you leave the country regularly and forget this useless stamp.

 

Quote

 

2). You only need to have the exit/re-entry in your passport and PR book when you depart/return to Thailand. If a PR holder doesn't leave Thailand for a long period time then there's no need to have the exit/re-entry stamp for a long time.

Right. I am not in that category. Even now, during Covid, I have to keep the stamp updated in case there is a family emergency overseas. I understand others do not plan for leaving the country unexpectedly. 

 

Quote

Many business people who are PR holders get the 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp. You can get the 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp whenever you want, it doesn't have to align to the calendar year or any year. It doesn't have to align to the date of issue of PR. It doesn't have to align to the expiry date of any current 'multiple entry exit/re-entry' stamp.

And if you leave the country without it, your PR will be cancelled upon re-entry. Why do we need that yearly renewal? And by the way, if it is about the fee we have to pay, I would prefer to do it online. Why do I have to waste half a day driving out to Chaeng Wattana? 

 

No, there is nothing good or OK about the requirement of a yearly renewal and it is more than a little annoying. People who don't get that yearly stamp basically cut off the option of leaving the country for whatever reason - I would not feel happy with that limitation of freedom of movement. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by onthemoon

[scorecard]

39 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

It's a major nuisance when you are at the airport, leaving for a business trip and that stamp has just expired. It means that the permanent residence is anything but permanent, it is only valid for a year - if you leave the country regularly and forget this useless stamp.

 

Right. I am not in that category. Even now, during Covid, I have to keep the stamp updated in case there is a family emergency overseas. I understand others do not plan for leaving the country unexpectedly. 

 

And if you leave the country without it, your PR will be cancelled upon re-entry. Why do we need that yearly renewal? And by the way, if it is about the fee we have to pay, I would prefer to do it online. Why do I have to waste half a day driving out to Chaeng Wattana? 

 

No, there is nothing good or OK about the requirement of a yearly renewal and it is more than a little annoying. People who don't get that yearly stamp basically cut off the option of leaving the country for whatever reason - I would not feel happy with that limitation of freedom of movement. 

Wow, if it's so annoying and problematic why don't you surrender your Certificate of Residence (if you have one) then your life will be utopia. 

[onthemoon]

48 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Wow, if it's so annoying and problematic why don't you surrender your Certificate of Residence (if you have one) then your life will be utopia. 

Sarcasm well noted.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Wow, if it's so annoying and problematic why don't you surrender your Certificate of Residence (if you have one) then your life will be utopia. 

He also inaccurately describes the multiple re-entry stamp as a "renewal" which it obviously isn't.I'm also not sure getting the necessary stamp represents a restriction on freedom of movement: it took me half an hour last time.Having said that, I tend to agree the whole PR set up is rather creaky and all too clearly is a sclerotic arrangement designed for another age.Unfortunately I can't see where the pressure to reform - as opposed to tinkering about at the margins - will come from.

 

Interestingly, an American friend recently pointed out to me that holders of green cards (a kind of supercharged version of Thai PR with the right to work) needed to be careful if they were out of the US for more than a year since the Immigration authorities tended to get suspicious, sometimes aggressively so.US green card holders aren't cut off at the knees as Thai PR holders are in similar circumstances after one year's absence - but it indicates the logic of the thinking of all immigration bureaucrats on the subject.

[Arkady]

30 minutes ago, jayboy said:

He also inaccurately describes the multiple re-entry stamp as a "renewal" which it obviously isn't.I'm also not sure getting the necessary stamp represents a restriction on freedom of movement: it took me half an hour last time.Having said that, I tend to agree the whole PR set up is rather creaky and all too clearly is a sclerotic arrangement designed for another age.Unfortunately I can't see where the pressure to reform - as opposed to tinkering about at the margins - will come from.

 

Interestingly, an American friend recently pointed out to me that holders of green cards (a kind of supercharged version of Thai PR with the right to work) needed to be careful if they were out of the US for more than a year since the Immigration authorities tended to get suspicious, sometimes aggressively so.US green card holders aren't cut off at the knees as Thai PR holders are in similar circumstances after one year's absence - but it indicates the logic of the thinking of all immigration bureaucrats on the subject.

I am not sure if Thailand just borrowed the concept of cancelling PR, if holders return without valid endorsements, from other countries that did the same thing or whether they had a a specific reason.  But there are similarities with the Nationality Act which provides for revocation of nationality for naturalised Thais and those who are Thai through birth in the Kingdom to an alien father, if they remain abroad for more than 5 years. Historically these provisions were used almost exclusively against Chinese migrants and children of Chinese migrants born in the Kingdom.  Probably the thinking was that Chinese who go back to China for long periods were not at all asilimated into Thai society and inpresented a security risk. It is also possible they could sell their PR or citizen documents to another Chinese who could assume their identity and move to Thailand. In modern times this seems to have been the motivation for the UK no longer allowing dual citizens to get right of abode stamps in their foreign passports.  I was told that dual nationals, largely from African countries, were selling their foreign passports with the right of abode.  However, biodata in passports may make this difficult or impossible today.

 

I had a girlfriend way back when I was living in the UK and she was a US green card holder who wanted to keep it up to retain the option of going back there some day. I went on a trip to New York with her just before her one year expired and this was the second or third time she had travelled there just before a year was up.  The IO, a disgusting fat slob, was brutal with her, criticising her for maintaining her green card and kept her at his window for 5 minutes to intimidate her. God knows what difference it made to him.  She eventually lost interest in the green card and let it lapse.