Triumph bikes in Thailand

[JonnyF]

^ ll2 you replied to my post already, including an edit so I'm not sure why you replied again. That's 3 attempts...

I'll reply briefly and then we can get back to Triumphs as this is not a Honda thread...

1. My track days are off road as a MX guy, I "might" track my gsxr next year if work slows down, hope that's ok with you?

2. Yes the cbr650 is cheap and you can see it when you look at the bike. Especially the suspension. It's built to a price point which is why the components are cheap. It's good value though and I quite like it.

3. Honda took you home because you bought the additional coverage, not as a personal favor.

4. I don't have shares in Honda and therefore I am neither pissed nor happy about their sales figures.

5. Only issue with the 899 was it took 3 pushes of the button to start twice (both times after being left in the sun after a spirited ride). Didn't need a pickup truck just pushed the button again and it fired up. I'll let you know if it gets any other issues though.

Maybe better leave this thread to the Triumph enthusiasts now? If you are pissed that I bought a 899 you can go to that thread and talk about Honda sales figures etc.

[soihok]

In an ideal world I would own and ride a Ducati, Honda and a Triumph

As its not quite (and I am not Jay Leno) I am on a Yamarah and at risk of losing my license.

( At least I am more hansum than Jay tho.... )

Edited December 11, 2014 by soihok

[soihok]

Thanks for the info about a Triumph dealer in KK , cheers.

[ll2]

back to the topic now.

a nice review of tiger 800 series bikes. clears the differences between the tiger 800 models.

i think choosing between them is only about figuring out how long do you spend on asphalt and how long on gravel and trails. if it is 70 percent asphalt and 30 percent gravel, i choose xrx but if the percentage goes in favor of gravel time, i go for xcx.

check it out:

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/reviews/2015-triumph-motorcycle-tiger-first-ride-review?dom=mcy&loc=hpslider3&lnk=IMG

Edited December 12, 2014 by ll2

[BKKBike09]

5. Only issue with the 899 was it took 3 pushes of the button to start twice (both times after being left in the sun after a spirited ride). Didn't need a pickup truck just pushed the button again and it fired up. I'll let you know if it gets any other issues though.

Off topic but ...

My FZ09 does that hard start sometimes. I've read it's particularly an issue with Cali-spec bikes which have an evap canister between the fuel tank vent and the atmosphere (I believe all the imported Yamaha bikes are Cali-spec, not other 49 States). In the sun the vapour pressure in the tank can cause vapour lock.

Solution = open and closed the filler cap. Vents the tank. Starts every time after that.

[JonnyF]

5. Only issue with the 899 was it took 3 pushes of the button to start twice (both times after being left in the sun after a spirited ride). Didn't need a pickup truck just pushed the button again and it fired up. I'll let you know if it gets any other issues though.

Off topic but ...

My FZ09 does that hard start sometimes. I've read it's particularly an issue with Cali-spec bikes which have an evap canister between the fuel tank vent and the atmosphere (I believe all the imported Yamaha bikes are Cali-spec, not other 49 States). In the sun the vapour pressure in the tank can cause vapour lock.

Solution = open and closed the filler cap. Vents the tank. Starts every time after that.

Thanks , yes you're right. I checked on the Ducati forums after it happened and it's caused by the charcoal canister which is there for emissions and totally safe to remove/disconnect. Some markets don't even have it. If it keeps happening then I'll remove it, Ducati confirmed it won't affect the warranty.

I assume it did the trick on the FZ? Edit, just read you're opening the tank. Ducati also advised that solves it.

Edited December 12, 2014 by JonnyF

[seedy]

New bikes are mapped so lean ( guess you can't say jetted any more), run hot, all for questional emissions savings.

Saw a documentary about burning coal in USA to make electricity. Said the plants put more emissions in the air in 7 days than all the vehicles in N America do in a year.

[BirdsandBooze]

[quote name="RubberSideDown" post="8695436" timestamp="1416450854

Diesel-electric has around for 50 years in trains, so why isn't it used in cars and bikes?

Petrol electric is more relevant to bikes because of the superior power to weight ratio. Some companies are presently working on this form of propulsion for bikes, although it has already been around for 100 years. The British built petrol electric, small gauge locomotives which they employed in the First World War to shuttle ammunition to the front lines and evacuate the wounded. Sorry, OT I know.

[AllanB]

[quote name="RubberSideDown" post="8695436" timestamp="1416450854

Diesel-electric has around for 50 years in trains, so why isn't it used in cars and bikes?

Petrol electric is more relevant to bikes because of the superior power to weight ratio. Some companies are presently working on this form of propulsion for bikes, although it has already been around for 100 years. The British built petrol electric, small gauge locomotives which they employed in the First World War to shuttle ammunition to the front lines and evacuate the wounded. Sorry, OT I know.

That was a kind of tongue in cheek comment, diesel electric, or to be up to date tdi/electric is more suited to cars and bigger vehicles and the amount saved world wide would make the 60mpg of a bike and it's associated emissions an irrelevance.

And getting back to the US coal fired power power stations, if they insulated houses like they do in Scandinavia we could get rid of half of those.

But back on topic (rather sneakily), I hope Triumph have to good sense to not join HD and build a stupid meaningless battery bike. Rather that they should get back to the levels of real innovation they achieved 50 years ago and before and not merely follow the crowd, or am I being obtuse?

[Bung]

I don't think you would ride an xrx on gravel at all! 30% off-road and you will want the xcx everytime!

[seedy]

I don't think you would ride an xrx on gravel at all! 30% off-road and you will want the xcx everytime!

Ditch those spoke wheels - it ain't a dirt bike !

Rode my Dyna many times on gravel roads. Fairbanks and back - about 160km one way - With Dunlops too. Weird feeling as the rear tire just weaves across the loose surface because of its width, but the narrow front tracked straight and true.

Being smooth on the controls is the key.

Edited December 12, 2014 by seedy

[BKKBike09]

5. Only issue with the 899 was it took 3 pushes of the button to start twice (both times after being left in the sun after a spirited ride). Didn't need a pickup truck just pushed the button again and it fired up. I'll let you know if it gets any other issues though.

Off topic but ...

My FZ09 does that hard start sometimes. I've read it's particularly an issue with Cali-spec bikes which have an evap canister between the fuel tank vent and the atmosphere (I believe all the imported Yamaha bikes are Cali-spec, not other 49 States). In the sun the vapour pressure in the tank can cause vapour lock.

Solution = open and closed the filler cap. Vents the tank. Starts every time after that.

Thanks , yes you're right. I checked on the Ducati forums after it happened and it's caused by the charcoal canister which is there for emissions and totally safe to remove/disconnect. Some markets don't even have it. If it keeps happening then I'll remove it, Ducati confirmed it won't affect the warranty.

I assume it did the trick on the FZ? Edit, just read you're opening the tank. Ducati also advised that solves it.

Yep, if you have a California-spec bike you'll have an evap canister. I've debated pulling it out on my FZ but just opening the filler cap does the trick so haven't done it yet.

If you do remove it just make sure that the replacement vent line will direct any vented fuel on to the ground, not on to hot bits of metal …

[ll2]

^

All thai spec big bikes have charcoal canister all i know. i even had one on my cbr500r.

[Bung]

I don't think you would ride an xrx on gravel at all! 30% off-road and you will want the xcx everytime!

Ditch those spoke wheels - it ain't a dirt bike !

Rode my Dyna many times on gravel roads. Fairbanks and back - about 160km one way - With Dunlops too. Weird feeling as the rear tire just weaves across the loose surface because of its width, but the narrow front tracked straight and true.

Being smooth on the controls is the key.

Tha XCx is a dirt bike though. Its why it has a 21 inch front wheel. The wheels are spoked because they are stronger! Whay would you want to get rid of them? You have to understand not all dirt riding is tight trails. Im looking forward to getting my Heidenau tyres on my Xcx and hitting some dirt roads, plenty around here in northern thailand.

[Bung]

My Heidenau KC 60 tyres ready to be fitted to my Xcx.

[DILLIGAD]

My Heidenau KC 60 tyres ready to be fitted to my Xcx.20140816_102145.jpg

When's the bike expected, Bung?

[seedy]

This is a dirt bike

[seedy]

XCX is an adventure - styled bike

[CharlieH]

off topic removed

[Bung]

XCX is an adventure - styled bike

So your saying an adventure styled bike is not designed to go offroad?

The XCX is most definately designed to be ridden offroad. Hence the 21" front wheel and long travel suspension. Just not in the tight stuff smaller dirt bikes are designed to do. Its like saying a touring bike cant be ridden on a race track only a race bike can.

I know pl3nty of dirt roads and c appy public roads where the tiger will be in its element. Ive got a crf 250 l, i dont want to take that out there on those roads, its miles away, i use it for the tight trails close by. Ive been way up mountains and see old thai men pass by on scooters, they're not dirt bikes either!

[seedy]

I said it was not a dirt bike.

And it is not.

I said nothing about its ability to go off the asphalt.

[dave_boo]

So...it seems from the posts that the XCx is going to be the go-to bike for this forum?

I've been spec comparing it to various bikes and it sure does seem like the best bet.

Compared to the F800 GS Adventure it has +9 HP (94) and -4 N_*m (79) of torque. The forks are -2mm(43) and have -10mm(220) travel. The shock matches up on travel (215mm) and features the same adjustability. The front brakes on the XCx are +8mm (308) and the rear -40mm (225) however the switchable ABS on the BMW seems to be an option. The tyres match up perfectly 90/90-21 and 150/70-17 for both bikes. The wheelbase is -10mm (1568), length is -105mm (2215), width is -80mm (865) and seat height is -35mm (845). Weight is -4kg (210). Fuel capacity is -5L (19). So for all those differences you pay -180,000 thb (675,000).

Of course there's the F700 GS for 650,000...but you give up 19HP, 2N_*m, 2" on the front wheel, blah-blah-blah to get the F700 GS.

I don't consider the Versys 650 or the V-Strom 650 to be in the same league.

The 1000 versions of the above (Versys @ 615,000 and V-Strom @ 698,000) are interesting. The Versys has ~16 more HP and the V-Strom a bit less. The Versys has ~16N_*m more torque and the V-Strom ~12N_*m more. Obviously you lose out on the electronics packages as well as the big front wheel. They also don't have the cachet that the Tiger has.

What's really throwing a wrench into my spec shopping is the Hyperstrada! Performance-wise it hits up with the 1000's. It has all the pretty parts and seems to only be missing the spoked wheels. But it's a Ducati! The stereotype of those bikes not being the most reliable kinda worries me off them. Add in the service fees (although the Triumph may have comparable) and I am confused. However the buy in price of only 549,000 sure is a lure.

I know, I know...technically I should be looking at a 650 to keep my upgrade cycle puttering along on course. They're ~150% the power of my latest and ~150% the price. That has pretty much been what I've been sticking to with a CBR 150 (@60K best bang for money 17HP) -> Ninja 250 (150K 25HP) -> CB500X (215K 40HP). So naturally a ~300K 60HP bike makes the most sense. But it would be nice getting off the upgrade train and enjoying the bike. I'm still not a great rider but skills have improved enough that I'm not as worried going up to such a bike.

[seedy]

XCX a great bike - no doubt.

Brit bike here in CNX has a small shop in the next shop house with a brilliant young mechanic. Quality work, good prices. You see torque wrenches - yes 2 of them, 3/8 and 1/2 drive - and Loctite being used regularly.

Had him put a primary seal in my HD after a quote from the 'resident' HD fixer. Fine job.

[JonnyF]

So...it seems from the posts that the XCx is going to be the go-to bike for this forum?

I've been spec comparing it to various bikes and it sure does seem like the best bet.

Compared to the F800 GS Adventure it has +9 HP (94) and -4 N_*m (79) of torque. The forks are -2mm(43) and have -10mm(220) travel. The shock matches up on travel (215mm) and features the same adjustability. The front brakes on the XCx are +8mm (308) and the rear -40mm (225) however the switchable ABS on the BMW seems to be an option. The tyres match up perfectly 90/90-21 and 150/70-17 for both bikes. The wheelbase is -10mm (1568), length is -105mm (2215), width is -80mm (865) and seat height is -35mm (845). Weight is -4kg (210). Fuel capacity is -5L (19). So for all those differences you pay -180,000 thb (675,000).

Of course there's the F700 GS for 650,000...but you give up 19HP, 2N_*m, 2" on the front wheel, blah-blah-blah to get the F700 GS.

I don't consider the Versys 650 or the V-Strom 650 to be in the same league.

The 1000 versions of the above (Versys @ 615,000 and V-Strom @ 698,000) are interesting. The Versys has ~16 more HP and the V-Strom a bit less. The Versys has ~16N_*m more torque and the V-Strom ~12N_*m more. Obviously you lose out on the electronics packages as well as the big front wheel. They also don't have the cachet that the Tiger has.

What's really throwing a wrench into my spec shopping is the Hyperstrada! Performance-wise it hits up with the 1000's. It has all the pretty parts and seems to only be missing the spoked wheels. But it's a Ducati! The stereotype of those bikes not being the most reliable kinda worries me off them. Add in the service fees (although the Triumph may have comparable) and I am confused. However the buy in price of only 549,000 sure is a lure.

I know, I know...technically I should be looking at a 650 to keep my upgrade cycle puttering along on course. They're ~150% the power of my latest and ~150% the price. That has pretty much been what I've been sticking to with a CBR 150 (@60K best bang for money 17HP) -> Ninja 250 (150K 25HP) -> CB500X (215K 40HP). So naturally a ~300K 60HP bike makes the most sense. But it would be nice getting off the upgrade train and enjoying the bike. I'm still not a great rider but skills have improved enough that I'm not as worried going up to such a bike.

Go with your heart Dave, just pick the bike that you really want or you'll constantly be thinking about the one that got away. Taking all these small steps up isn't necessary in my opinion and you don't want to end up looking for something more after a relatively short period with the bike like you did with the cb500. A Versys would be a pretty small step up from that and I'm pretty sure you'd always be thinking about the Triumph if you bought the Versys. Buy once, cry once.

Don't forget the Hyperstrada has different power modes if you really want to work your way up without changing bikes again. Pretty sure the Triumph does as well...

[soihok]

Go for a new 1200 Monster Dave.

[ll2]

So...it seems from the posts that the XCx is going to be the go-to bike for this forum?

I've been spec comparing it to various bikes and it sure does seem like the best bet.

Compared to the F800 GS Adventure it has +9 HP (94) and -4 N_*m (79) of torque. The forks are -2mm(43) and have -10mm(220) travel. The shock matches up on travel (215mm) and features the same adjustability. The front brakes on the XCx are +8mm (308) and the rear -40mm (225) however the switchable ABS on the BMW seems to be an option. The tyres match up perfectly 90/90-21 and 150/70-17 for both bikes. The wheelbase is -10mm (1568), length is -105mm (2215), width is -80mm (865) and seat height is -35mm (845). Weight is -4kg (210). Fuel capacity is -5L (19). So for all those differences you pay -180,000 thb (675,000).

Of course there's the F700 GS for 650,000...but you give up 19HP, 2N_*m, 2" on the front wheel, blah-blah-blah to get the F700 GS.

I don't consider the Versys 650 or the V-Strom 650 to be in the same league.

The 1000 versions of the above (Versys @ 615,000 and V-Strom @ 698,000) are interesting. The Versys has ~16 more HP and the V-Strom a bit less. The Versys has ~16N_*m more torque and the V-Strom ~12N_*m more. Obviously you lose out on the electronics packages as well as the big front wheel. They also don't have the cachet that the Tiger has.

What's really throwing a wrench into my spec shopping is the Hyperstrada! Performance-wise it hits up with the 1000's. It has all the pretty parts and seems to only be missing the spoked wheels. But it's a Ducati! The stereotype of those bikes not being the most reliable kinda worries me off them. Add in the service fees (although the Triumph may have comparable) and I am confused. However the buy in price of only 549,000 sure is a lure.

I know, I know...technically I should be looking at a 650 to keep my upgrade cycle puttering along on course. They're ~150% the power of my latest and ~150% the price. That has pretty much been what I've been sticking to with a CBR 150 (@60K best bang for money 17HP) -> Ninja 250 (150K 25HP) -> CB500X (215K 40HP). So naturally a ~300K 60HP bike makes the most sense. But it would be nice getting off the upgrade train and enjoying the bike. I'm still not a great rider but skills have improved enough that I'm not as worried going up to such a bike.

get the triumph tiger XCX Dave. XRX is good enough as well with 19 inch rims with scorpion trails if you are not planing to cross country tours on 100% gravel and mud and actually it will give you more fun on asphalt where majority of your rides will be on.

hyperstrada - not sure if you ever rode one - does not have a lot of room for touring imo, especially two up and it feels much more of a motard and you feel like you sit on the tank.13 liters of small tank. very small bike, no proper wind protection. no adjustable front fork. also not very comfy. for short rides, it should be fine but long rides might be a pain in the a...s

and it is a ducati so reliability issues are always there.

but it looks great, a lot better than triumph imo.

if you have time, wait for Honda African Twin bro! but god know when will it arrive, it is not even fully released yet.

[guzzi850m2]

Buy a Rocket III, anything else you buy later on will be a downgrade

No just kidding.

You should go try a Hyperstada, it's easy and very fun to ride BUT as you I am also conserned about the reliability issues, I heard you can't leave them alone for 1-2 month and the fuel injectors needs cleaning, that's a no no for me as I work 2 month on/off basis and I don't want a bike where you has to add stuff in the tank just because it's sitting still for a bit.

Go for the Tiger, but check the different forums carefully first.

If you want cheap in all regards: Versys 650 2015, it looks good and many upgrades on the new one. Perhaps go rent one somewhere and make up your mind if enough umph or not.

[dave_boo]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It's been a year and half since I got the 500X. Pretty much the exact time when I got serious about getting a replacement for the 150...and even for the 250 but unfortunately there wasn't anything for the longest time (other than the Kawi 650s) to upgrade to from the 250. The small step up is something that would be good to get away from, and sure I'd be thinking about having getting the Tiger...but there's no guarantee that I'd be on the Versys.

Go with your heart Dave, just pick the bike that you really want or you'll constantly be thinking about the one that got away. Taking all these small steps up isn't necessary in my opinion and you don't want to end up looking for something more after a relatively short period with the bike like you did with the cb500. A Versys would be a pretty small step up from that and I'm pretty sure you'd always be thinking about the Triumph if you bought the Versys. Buy once, cry once.

Don't forget the Hyperstrada has different power modes if you really want to work your way up without changing bikes again. Pretty sure the Triumph does as well...

I'm pretty sure that I would have to use the power modes on whatever big bike I would get! Mostly because if it is an ADV bike the trouble and strife would want to come along and already I get the pillion driver comments on the wee 500. Was so much nicer with the Ninjette's torture seat...she simply didn't want to come along.

Go for a new 1200 Monster Dave.

Thanks, but I'm in love with ADV style bikes.

get the triumph tiger XCX Dave. XRX is good enough as well with 19 inch rims with scorpion trails if you are not planing to cross country tours on 100% gravel and mud and actually it will give you more fun on asphalt where majority of your rides will be on.

hyperstrada - not sure if you ever rode one - does not have a lot of room for touring imo, especially two up and it feels much more of a motard and you feel like you sit on the tank.13 liters of small tank. very small bike, no proper wind protection. no adjustable front fork. also not very comfy. for short rides, it should be fine but long rides might be a pain in the a...s

and it is a ducati so reliability issues are always there.

but it looks great, a lot better than triumph imo.

if you have time, wait for Honda African Twin bro! but god know when will it arrive, it is not even fully released yet.

I have until August when I have made up my mind I will be getting a new bike; so if Honda can release the Africa Twin at a price point that makes sense to me I'll consider it. I also think the advantages of the XCX are more than the 21" wheel! The upgraded suspension, electronics, etc. sure seem to more than make up the price difference.

Buy a Rocket III, anything else you buy later on will be a downgrade alt=biggrin.png>

No just kidding.

You should go try a Hyperstada, it's easy and very fun to ride BUT as you I am also conserned about the reliability issues, I heard you can't leave them alone for 1-2 month and the fuel injectors needs cleaning, that's a no no for me as I work 2 month on/off basis and I don't want a bike where you has to add stuff in the tank just because it's sitting still for a bit.

Go for the Tiger, but check the different forums carefully first.

If you want cheap in all regards: Versys 650 2015, it looks good and many upgrades on the new one. Perhaps go rent one somewhere and make up your mind if enough umph or not.

I wonder if a Rocket III engine can be shoehorned into an XCx chassis...actually I don't.

I have the same issue you do, but often it's even longer than that in intervals where I'm not riding. The Kawasaki Ninja bit me in the ass once because I left it sitting with the wrong fuel and I don't want to go through that again. It was cheap enough to repair (bet you can't say that about Ducati), and luckily was only in the shop a couple of days after I arrived because the problem was discovered before I came. However if I came and went to fire up a sexy Ducati to take a ride and all it did was sputter-sputter-cough and I then had to take it to BKK to get it fixed, I would not be a happy camper; even if technically it was my fault.

I have been reading the Tiger forums; paying special attention to reliability and lesser to FARKLES. Good thing is that my plan to simply move my Trekker boxes back and forth between my 2 bikes seems like a good to go as they look (IMHO) really nice on the Tiger.

Cheap isn't a problem; value is...if that makes sense.

[nikster]

^ if I may weigh in... the Hyperstrada has a nominal tank capacity of 16l. Just read the specs!

That said, it's only 14.5 in real life - 1.5 liters seem to get lost somewhere, which is significant. I also get 15.5 km/liter consistently. It's plenty comfortable for long runs, but depends on the rider, really. People complain about the Hypermotard seat - I have no issues in that seat riding all day long. Hyperstrada has a touring seat so even better. Hyperstrada also comes with bags and a windscreen. That's all included in the 550k sticker price.

It's a totally different bike to the XCX or F800 GS though. BTW The F800 GS only costs 540,000, not 6xx,xxx?! Should be a factor! XCx looks to be even more offload-worthy than the F800GS so if that matters to you you need this bike. A Hyperstrada does not want to go offroading - it's a little on-road touring bike.

You don't really sound like much of a hooligan though so I'd still get the XCx or F800GS if I were you. They're going to be more sedate; triumph should be more lively as engine is concerned, but if I may venture a guess, not as crazy as the Hyper. I tried a Multistrada 1200 Pikes Peak once, I put it in sports mode. This is a 150hp bike. I found it not all too exciting - it was OK. After the day, got back on the Hypermotard and almost pulled a wheelie. Woooo-hooo! It's madness.

Not sure about the reliability of a Triumph - have heard mixed reports on that. Ducati was OK but honestly too many faults for me - it left me stranded only once but still this was year one, I expect better. Ducati seems to cheap out on certain parts, and on QC. On the other hand, bike got tons of character and is an absolute blast to ride.

[dave_boo]

^ if I may weigh in... the Hyperstrada has a nominal tank capacity of 16l. Just read the specs!

That said, it's only 14.5 in real life - 1.5 liters seem to get lost somewhere, which is significant. I also get 15.5 km/liter consistently. It's plenty comfortable for long runs, but depends on the rider, really. People complain about the Hypermotard seat - I have no issues in that seat riding all day long. Hyperstrada has a touring seat so even better. Hyperstrada also comes with bags and a windscreen. That's all included in the 550k sticker price.

It's a totally different bike to the XCX or F800 GS though. BTW The F800 GS only costs 540,000, not 6xx,xxx?! Should be a factor! XCx looks to be even more offload-worthy than the F800GS so if that matters to you you need this bike. A Hyperstrada does not want to go offroading - it's a little on-road touring bike.

You don't really sound like much of a hooligan though so I'd still get the XCx or F800GS if I were you. They're going to be more sedate; triumph should be more lively as engine is concerned, but if I may venture a guess, not as crazy as the Hyper. I tried a Multistrada 1200 Pikes Peak once, I put it in sports mode. This is a 150hp bike. I found it not all too exciting - it was OK. After the day, got back on the Hypermotard and almost pulled a wheelie. Woooo-hooo! It's madness.

Not sure about the reliability of a Triumph - have heard mixed reports on that. Ducati was OK but honestly too many faults for me - it left me stranded only once but still this was year one, I expect better. Ducati seems to cheap out on certain parts, and on QC. On the other hand, bike got tons of character and is an absolute blast to ride.

Thanks for posting your experience on the Hypermotard; for someone considering a new bike between it and the 800X** it provides valid points. Perhaps the best comparison between the Triumph and the Ducati is the XR model; however the Ducati comes with higher spec suspension, more power and the bags and comfort seat...at only 64,000 thb more. Still a great deal in my opinion. I do see how for a real ADV bike the Hyperstrada falls short.

I was going on the F700 GS price of 650,000 based on BMW's website listing of prices. If the non-Adventure F800 GS only costs 540,000 it's a bit more interesting; but you do give up an awful lot to go down from the XCX to it.

I am not much of a hooligan. Not in my nature. So your thoughts are mirroring mine.

I've always considered a Ducati a second bike correctly or wrongly (much as one would have a Ferrari or Lambo as a 'second car'). Very nice looking with the sound and soul that definitely makes one say "wow", but wouldn't want to use and abuse it like a Honda. I've read the negative repots on Triumph also, but honestly they don't seem to have as high of a percentage, from my admittedly limited surveys, of such issues. Perhaps if I was living in LoS full time it would make sense, but now I just want to be able to arrive and count on the bike to perform as designed.