Where is our international community headed in Chiang Mai?

[orang37]

It is not our country (the plural pronoun referring to the soul-spirit-combo-in-one-sorry-meat-package of this Orangutan from Kalimantan so cruelly rendered from his peaceful arboreal rain-forest jungle to the lifeless-prison of a Phu Yai's private zoo in Bangkok once-upon-a-time, and this self-rendered American).

It is a profoundly different country, and culture, and no matter how much expats may have (your choice of) gone-native, gone-loco, adapted, acclimatized, become ever-so culturally aware and hip, learned "Thai Ways, ... etc., etc. ... we remain ... on many levels, strangers in a strange land.

I have a choice; I can live here and adapt to Thailand as Thais define their country ... or, leave. Well, oh yes, I could go on a jihad about how under the Thai-US treaty of amity (or whatever it was) Americans are supposed to have this, or that, right in Thailand, but I have better things to do with my time.

I am at peace with the choice to adapt, and I find the cup-of-living-here much more half-full than half-empty.

By the way, good riddance to the so-called "spiritual" expat charlatans and hustlers who infest this country; Thailand has enough of their own home-grown similar ilk to go-round. And, the self-righteous expat do-gooders here crusading for whatever cause and bogusly claiming to represent whatever homeless creature, or disenfranchised group, or to have access to "higher powers" ... hope you get on the same out-going boat with the ersatz yogis, cult-of-Reikis, and cure-alls ... and that the boat sinks somewhere in a shark-infested part of the Gulf of Thailand from the sheer weight of your collective hubris.

If I wanted all the rights of a Thai Citizen, well, then: I would assume I should become a Thai citizen.

cheers, ~o:37;

p.s. I take back the part about the boat sinking: I wouldn't wish that type of toxic chum on a shark

Edited January 25, 2015 by onthedarkside
inflammatory open remark removed

[seedy]

Nice One !

[elgenon]

No Muslim marches, no gay parades, no heroin addict foreigners playing at Tha Pae Gate for donations, an area that has been relatively safe from the terrorists......why should they change? If I weren't eligible for a retirement visa, I would be in Cambodia or Mexico.

Thailand is a very conservative society, yet they are very accepting. Much more accepting of say, ladyboys, than America. There had been gay/ladyboy parades in Chiang Mai but the Redshirts threatened to beat them up one Valentines Day. I was there and disappointed. It was fun in the past.

In Pattaya in December I was sitting at a an open-air restaurant on 2nd Road and I heard loud music then saw ladyboy cheerleaders marching, then straight Thais, then a vehicle advertising Kasikorn bank! Amazing! Would never happen in America.

Went to dinner with a Thai friend who is an executive at BoT. Her daughter showed me photos of shool friends. One was gay, one was transgender. Wow! She was proud when I told her how much more accepting Thai society is.

It's people who live with negative, hateful mindsets that scare the begeebies out of me.

[NoshowJones]

This is a great post, and the very reason I am always saying that we are 'not guests in this country', as so many TV members keep pointing out. I would like to know if anyone reading this post, still thinks we are guests in this country. The OP correctly says we are treated as common criminals having to do 90 day reporting. Some guests would you not say?

Before the 'if you don't like it go home' brigade starts, I am still better off here than in the UK, so I'm staying.

[Suradit69]

You need to join the Thai patronage system. This is not the West. The fundamental structure of Asian societies is the patronage system. If you believe you can come here and set up non-registered businesses or non-profit organisations just because you want to, you can't. But your chance of doing it successfully increases exponentially, if you do it under the patronage of a senior figure such as a politician or senior police officer.

"The fundamental structure of Asian societies is the patronage system."

So you're saying New Jersey is in Asia?

[Ulysses G.]

Nice One !

One of orang37's best ever. "Like" it!

[TravelerEastWest]

"But immigration keep busting people and places because they don’t comform to laws they have little or no hope in comforming to.

I wonder sometimes too if local Thais in CM can be approached by us and asked to consider our plight? And it is a plight, no bones about it. Creative and positive and upstanding foreign citizens are being squeezed away from here. This is paritcularly distressing for those who have married Thais, or who have lived here for so long it feels totally like their home.

Is there room, at least, for a debate about this on this forum??

Ideas and reactions most welcome on this thread. Tried to keep the OP as short as possible!"

You ask for ideas and reactions:

1) I like the tone of your OP - you want to see many people be helped - always good.

2) Work permits are not that hard to get. Sometimes you need a boring day job but it is like that all over the world, in short very normal.

3) There are ways already setup for foreigners to talk to the Thai government - through their own country's foreign service. Time consuming and sometimes frustrating yes, but that is how governments are set up - vote, write your elected representative back home.

4) Even better those foreigners who are married to Thais can have their spouse/partner vote and work within the Thai system. In the end this is the best answer to your post.

5) "And it is a plight, no bones about it. Creative and positive and upstanding foreign citizens are being squeezed away from here."

Sorry I don't agree - upstanding citizens follow laws and try to make constructive changes. For those who just complain little will happen.

6) Foreign media can have an influence - so lets see those artists writing letters and articles.

Again I like your OP and it is a good step but a small one. Lets see those who are harmed by the rules do something in a constructive way and not whine and complain.

[NoshowJones]

Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast.

International community? - there isnt one. What do you mean? All non -thai (japanese/korean/chinese?) Farang only?

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas. Immigrants in most countries are not particularly welcome and neither are their attempts to change the nature of the country where they have chosen to relocate. The weekly anti-immigrant marches in Germany are an example. The recent swiss referendum that voted to close the door to immigrants against the advice of their government is another example.

And the diificulties for a thai national to get a schengen and/or uk visa even to visit as a tourist put the boot firmly on the other foot.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

Many farang countries would be better off with a similar reporting system for immigrants so they had some chance of tracking overstayers, and others acting illegally.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

On a bigger scale, the UK wants the EU to change to accommodate UK-it isnt going to happen. UK has to accept what it cant change, or leave.

Same for us.

You say "we are unimportant to the Thai economy" not true, then you say "we are tolerated" definitely true. IMO, we are only tolerated because of our contribution to the Thai economy. If all us expats got up and went back to our own countries, Thailand would soon know all about it.

[Johpa]

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand.

Typical ridiculous sentiment of the neo-sahib class that base their entire value system upon the acquisition of wealth and then extrapolate that meme towards all Thais. I for one am of modest means, yet have been welcomed and I daresay excepted by my Thai peers for nearly three decades now. My difficulty is getting along with the post 1997 arrivals who make up the majority of the neo-sahib class, who prefer to socialize with the corrupt and degenerate Thai Hi-So class, and who have actually assimilated many of the despicable mores of that Thai minority. I have to be careful in the presence of such affluent foreigners as I sometimes glean far too much information from their Thai speaking wives, information that those wives would not want their well endowed bank rolled husbands to become privy too. But I confess that every now and again I let loose on some former bar girl who has decided that all those whose wealth is beneath that of her trophy farang husband are to be disparaged.

The bottom line is that for the majority of Thais, wealth is not the determining factor of who is "wanted" in Thailand.

[tonray]

You need to join the Thai patronage system. This is not the West. The fundamental structure of Asian societies is the patronage system. If you believe you can come here and set up non-registered businesses or non-profit organisations just because you want to, you can't. But your chance of doing it successfully increases exponentially, if you do it under the patronage of a senior figure such as a politician or senior police officer.

Seems to me that's how it works in the West also. it's just that in the West we have institutionalize the patronage. Do a survey for example of Toll Taker jobs in my home state of NJ. You need to have a relative in government to get considered (not technically but that's the way it works). Or all the firms doing business with the federal infrastructure in and around Washington DC...guess what ? Many of these contracts are awarded to companies owned by family members of Congressmen, yes there is a biddng process but when you know about the contract before it is published you get to favorably structure your bid. Just the way the world works. I hear loads of complaining here about how Thais hate westerners but seriously do you think it's any easier for SouthEast Asians to integrate into America for example ? We are all here because cost of living is less than in the West and other 'amenities' are plentiful and there is no snow. Bottom line, get used to it or go back to the same in the West with higher costs to boot.

Edited January 25, 2015 by tonray

[doublephil]

Every country in the world has its immigration rules and regulations - and many are much more strict than here in Thailand - especially the Western countries where most contributors here come from.

Many people seem to be so narrow-minded. Thailand's immigration rules and regulations are really not designed to make it difficult for a few Western artists and others to stay and work here - they are designed to keep out, as far as is possible and sometimes not very well, the marauding hoards of immigrant Chinese, Koreans, Myanmar, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Filippinas, Indonesians, etc., that would otherwise over-run the country. It is perfectly undestandable for Thailand to want to protect its own people and culture. Look at what has happened in Europe where the strong economy countries like UK, Germany and France have already been infested and over-run by eceonomic migrants from poorer countries putting an incredible strain on local people.

[NoshowJones]

No Muslim marches, no gay parades, no heroin addict foreigners playing at Tha Pae Gate for donations, an area that has been relatively safe from the terrorists......why should they change? If I weren't eligible for a retirement visa, I would be in Cambodia or Mexico.

I don't think anyone is objecting to the retirement extensions, IMO, annual reports would be sufficient, then after maybe five years of being a good citizen and proving we can look after ourselves financially and otherwise, we could apply for permanent residency.

That is not to say that if we engage in criminal activity, end up in jail, or become undesirable in some way, we cannot be deported, even if we have been here twenty years.

[worgeordie]

Regarding Thais not wanting Farangs to own any land in Thailand,

these will be the 2% of Thais whom own the majority of land here,

they spout that Farangs will buy all the land in Thailand and leave

none for the poor,while it is they that own large tracts.

They are free to go to US,Europe,Australia,and lots of other countries

and buy as much land as their budget allows,while we here with long

commitment and families are not permitted legally to own a small plot

to build a family home.the Govt only allowed ownership of Condos after

the financial crash ,when there was a glut of unsold units.

regards Worgeordie

[elgenon]

Every country in the world has its immigration rules and regulations - and many are much more strict than here in Thailand - especially the Western countries where most contributors here come from.

Many people seem to be so narrow-minded. Thailand's immigration rules and regulations are really not designed to make it difficult for a few Western artists and others to stay and work here - they are designed to keep out, as far as is possible and sometimes not very well, the marauding hoards of immigrant Chinese, Koreans, Myanmar, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Filippinas, Indonesians, etc., that would otherwise over-run the country. It is perfectly undestandable for Thailand to want to protect its own people and culture. Look at what has happened in Europe where the strong economy countries like UK, Germany and France have already been infested and over-run by eceonomic migrants from poorer countries putting an incredible strain on local people.

You do know that ASEAN starts this year and barriers between the countrie will be dropped. For instance, Filipinos will be hired in Thailand because of English proficiency. So what you say is WRONG!

[connda]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

You don't want an objective debate, you want replies that agree with you.

For one, I agree with you. And I'm not thinking the OP wants a debate (i.e., opposing opinions arguing a specific topic) as opposed to a constructive dialog of ideas. He has good point, many of which I've voiced myself. Here, let's take one point - opening a business like yoga.

In the West, right now, I'd have no problem financing a yoga studio. A yoga studio would not cost me $61.5 thousand US dollars in 'registered capital' to open. I could probably open a studio where I use to live for about $5000 including rental, equipment, licensing, and permits. I opened a small business for my ex-wife in the past.

Here in the LOS, there is no way I'm going to tie up $61.5 thousand US dollars (2 mil baht registered) to open a small business that I can open for 12 time less money in my own country But yet, I out-earn most middle-class Thai by a lot. So yeah, the bar to entry into the system is set ridiculously high. Especially for those of us married to Thais and have families we support. I live here. My wife and family do not want to leave Thailand. And because we are men married to Thai women vs foreign women married to a Thai man, we don't have the same path to citizenship (actually, virtually no chance at all) as foreign women. I've paid taxes, and I've contributed to the well being of Thai society is spades as compared to an 'average' Thai. And this is just one point. The OP outlined many points that I have to agree with.

So, this post is worth discussion. Acknowledging the patronage system was an excellent observation. And working within the system to open dialog with Thais in an attempt to change the system for the benefit of both Thais and foreigners who call Thailand their 'home' is not some absurd idea. If enough like minded individuals got together, it would be feasible to 'lobby' the government in an attempt to change the system. It would take time, energy, and immense patience, but doing something is better than blindly accepting the status quo, or simple complaining about it endlessly.

So OP, if this is a call to organize in order to influence the Thai system, consider me in. It's not an impossibility, but it would take a lot of work - although, not the type of work that requires a work permit.

Edited January 25, 2015 by connda

[cmsally]

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand.

Typical ridiculous sentiment of the neo-sahib class that base their entire value system upon the acquisition of wealth and then extrapolate that meme towards all Thais. I for one am of modest means, yet have been welcomed and I daresay excepted by my Thai peers for nearly three decades now. My difficulty is getting along with the post 1997 arrivals who make up the majority of the neo-sahib class, who prefer to socialize with the corrupt and degenerate Thai Hi-So class, and who have actually assimilated many of the despicable mores of that Thai minority. I have to be careful in the presence of such affluent foreigners as I sometimes glean far too much information from their Thai speaking wives, information that those wives would not want their well endowed bank rolled husbands to become privy too. But I confess that every now and again I let loose on some former bar girl who has decided that all those whose wealth is beneath that of her trophy farang husband are to be disparaged.

The bottom line is that for the majority of Thais, wealth is not the determining factor of who is "wanted" in Thailand.

My guess is you have been in/around Thailand since at least the mid 80's .

Therefore there are a lot of things that you "get". Congratulations great post.

One poster that it would be a pleasure to meet in person, I think.

[Tchooptip]

Op, you have read and contributed to Thaivisa for a long time so I am surprised you expected to get intelligent, useful, non-inflammatory replies. It is surely not the nature of the beast.

International community? - there isnt one. What do you mean? All non -thai (japanese/korean/chinese?) Farang only?

Surely CM just has a large cross-section of very varied Non Thai residents and tourists, with many different interests. And, as elsewhere, only a minority are interested in the art, yoga, spirituality to which you refer.

I know there are road bumps, but surely in reality thai people and authorities are fairly tolerant of incomers and their strange non-thai ideas. Immigrants in most countries are not particularly welcome and neither are their attempts to change the nature of the country where they have chosen to relocate. The weekly anti-immigrant marches in Germany are an example. The recent swiss referendum that voted to close the door to immigrants against the advice of their government is another example.

And the diificulties for a thai national to get a schengen and/or uk visa even to visit as a tourist put the boot firmly on the other foot.

There is so much thai bashing on here, and criticism of thainess, I am not sure why this forum would ever be taken seriously as an agent of change.

Contrary to what many seem to believe, we are unimportant to the thai economy and we are tolerated, but why would they roll out the red carpet?

You criticise the 90 day reporting but it is no big deal. many make a virtue of DIY reporting but t is easy and cheap to use an agent to take away any hassle.

Many farang countries would be better off with a similar reporting system for immigrants so they had some chance of tracking overstayers, and others acting illegally.

You are right though- there is no conduit for lobbying for change- I suppose you could try your consulate but I think you know their response.

Seems to me we can only be happy anywhere if we can accept their way of life, their rules, their systems etc etc and not expect them to bend to our will-however sensible it seems to us.

On a bigger scale, the UK wants the EU to change to accommodate UK-it isnt going to happen. UK has to accept what it cant change, or leave.

Same for us.

The weekly anti-immigrant marches in Germany are an example

There are not anti-immigrant marches at all in Germany there are anti-Islamization marches!

If you allow me it does not fit your example as well

[Tchooptip]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

More subjective beliefs. I do hope the quality of replies can improve soon!

Did you even read my post man? I was talking about musicians and yoga and tai chi groups and teachers getting busted for advancing the lives of the citizens here, thai and farang alike. Then you enter talking about 'dross'.

And not all of life is measured by fat cat businessmen who have millions to invest. I was referring to the arts, the things that add to communities and their wellbeing.

Please add something worthwhile here, or go to another thread. And, at the absolute minimum, read my OP properly.

That`s your opinion. I see western influences in Thailand as a contamination not an advancement. This is the same old our ways are bigger and better than yours superior farang attitudes, something I was well glad to get away from in my home country. Thailand has it`s own unique culture, I like it and want it to stay that way.

If I want to listen to western music I can buy it on a CD, or go into Utube or listen on the music channel. Never been interested in yoga or the weird tai chi (whatever that is and don`t care) and contrary to what you may think, there are many of us that can live without it.

Thailand only wants farangs that are of benefit to the country, it has to be a give and take scenario, not a grazing ground and a supporter for the lower archivers in their home countries that become bored with their mundane lives over there and can only stay in Thailand for the long term by hustling. I certainly would not want farangs of little wealth given rights to buy and own real estate here, types of loser trailer park trash and council home tenants overwhelming my area and laying down the rules. Pattaya is a typical example as to how low class farangs can degrade an area.

I am very satisfied with my lifestyle in Chiang Mai and loving it. That`s because I can fulfil all the imposed conditions of the Immigration Department, so no problem. For those like you who don`t consider that farangs are getting a fair deal here, then you have an option of moving on to destinations that maybe more accommodating to your types or start a revolution.

''That`s your opinion. I see western influences in Thailand as a contamination not an advancement''

Me too! I thought I was the only one

[TravelerEastWest]

Elgenon,

"You do know that ASEAN starts this year and barriers between the countrie will be dropped. For instance, Filipinos will be hired in Thailand because of English proficiency. So what you say is WRONG!"

I am confused - it was my impression that only some limited barriers would be dropped.

There will only be a limited chance for a Filipino to get a job in Thailand that is not already possible.

Already they can get jobs as teachers and nurses and probably a number of other possibilities exist. Their English skills are already helping them...

[northernjohn]

Regarding Thais not wanting Farangs to own any land in Thailand,

these will be the 2% of Thais whom own the majority of land here,

they spout that Farangs will buy all the land in Thailand and leave

none for the poor,while it is they that own large tracts.

They are free to go to US,Europe,Australia,and lots of other countries

and buy as much land as their budget allows,while we here with long

commitment and families are not permitted legally to own a small plot

to build a family home.the Govt only allowed ownership of Condos after

the financial crash ,when there was a glut of unsold units.

regards Worgeordie

What you say may be true. I can not say for sure that 2% is accurate. But the rest of the post is also true. How ever there arte also many other countries that you can not own land in. This is not a Thailand only thing.

But one thing you said that kind of got me to thinking why would it be a problem.

Was when you said long commitments and family. What is the problem put the land in your partners name if it is a long term commitment. If you don't trust her you can get a 30 year lease. Not sure of the legal name. If you are not in a long term relationship would not the lease serve you just as good?

[connda]

While these things stated in the original post may in 'substance' be accurate, the fact that they exist is not necessarily a 'problem.'

The laws are made for Thais. Perhaps they don't see these issues as 'problems.' Perhaps they see them as their government protecting them from foreign influence, foreign invasion of business, and foreign incursion of their culture.

Perhaps the problem isn't the problem. Perhaps the problem is 'your' attitude about these conditions.

I've always have found the mind-set of individuals who are so content with the status-quo that they feel a need to disparage those who believe in constructive change as -- an interestingly arrogant, smug, and somewhat lazy point-of-view.

It's too easy: "If you don't like it go home." "You have a bad attitude, get over it." "This isn't your country. You're a guest so you have no rights and no reason to voice concerns." TV is full of this sort of non-constructive, negative minded thinking.

There is only one constant in this world. That constant is change. Everything changes, no matter how much you wish the status-quo to remain the same. So I embrace the change, and like the OP and others, I truly believe it's better to attempt to influence the direction of change over time, as opposed to just accepting it.

[KhnomKhnom]

You need to join the Thai patronage system. This is not the West. The fundamental structure of Asian societies is the patronage system. If you believe you can come here and set up non-registered businesses or non-profit organisations just because you want to, you can't. But your chance of doing it successfully increases exponentially, if you do it under the patronage of a senior figure such as a politician or senior police officer.

Smartest, fast, good answer. I still am Amazed at the foreigners who arrive thinking they do not need a Thai citizen to "front" for them or even to do the asking for what the foreigner wants. So many have never heard of assimilation, adaption, and "to get along, go along." So many foreigners bring to Thailand, where it never belonged, the Westernized ideas of "By Gawd, I Have Rights" important fellow that I am.

If you want to practice yoga in a group, do not charge money; just gather in a place and if someone of the group offers advice about practice, he is just talking to friends, and that does not require a work permit.

I strongly advise firmly and irretrievably Westernized mind-sets to holiday here but never take up residence. Thailand does not want you, will never change to accommodate you, and does not care at all for your puny little cash you spend to keep yourself alive here. Adapt or ............... I guess die early of high blood pressure.

Having mostly adapted, I can comfortably sign...

[KhnomKhnom]

I still am Amazed at the foreigners who arrive thinking they do not need a Thai citizen to "front" for them or even to do the asking for what the foreigner wants. So many have never heard of assimilation, adaption, and "to get along, go along." So many foreigners bring to Thailand, where it never belonged, the Westernized ideas of "By Gawd, I Have Rights" important fellow that I am.

If you want to practice yoga in a group, do not charge money; just gather in a place and if someone of the group offers advice about practice, he is just talking to friends, and that does not require a work permit.

I strongly advise firmly and irretrievably Westernized mind-sets to holiday here but never take up residence. Thailand does not want you, will never change to accommodate you, and does not care at all for your puny little cash you spend to keep yourself alive here. Adapt or ............... I guess die early of high blood pressure.

Having mostly adapted, I can comfortably sign...

[connda]

OP, can you re-state your question? I've re-read the OP and it meanders to the point of being unintelligible. I think you mean to say this, but correct me if I am wrong:

"I have friends who need to support themselves and, in some cases, their Thai spouses/children. Unfortunately, it is very hard to do here since work permits are not that easy to obtain. We love Chiang Mai and want to stay here and support the community with the skills we have to offer. What can we do?"

I've read the OP twice and it seems to be a perfectly lucid, well-thought out opinion. Imho.

[northernjohn]

I'm hoping any debate this thread throws up will not be caught up with this kind of reply. Firstly the claims are just not true, secondly i really wanted a debate that is a wee bit more objective in terms of offering serious ideas rather than deep-rooted beliefs.

Such beliefs may be true to an extent, but only relating to the past. Times have changed. Laws pertaining to the ability of foreigners to work here, get married and work here, and so on, have not changed. This thread would like to debate these laws, and to throw up ideas for how a collective voice can be made and heard to try and bring about positive change for people who add to the flavour and positivity in this nation, in particular our town here in Chiang Mai.

You don't want an objective debate, you want replies that agree with you.

For one, I agree with you. And I'm not thinking the OP wants a debate (i.e., opposing opinions arguing a specific topic) as opposed to a constructive dialog of ideas. He has good point, many of which I've voiced myself. Here, let's take one point - opening a business like yoga.

In the West, right now, I'd have no problem financing a yoga studio. A yoga studio would not cost me $61.5 thousand US dollars in 'registered capital' to open. I could probably open a studio where I use to live for about $5000 including rental, equipment, licensing, and permits. I opened a small business for my ex-wife in the past.

Here in the LOS, there is no way I'm going to tie up $61.5 thousand US dollars (2 mil baht registered) to open a small business that I can open for 12 time less money in my own country But yet, I out-earn most middle-class Thai by a lot. So yeah, the bar to entry into the system is set ridiculously high. Especially for those of us married to Thais and have families we support. I live here. My wife and family do not want to leave Thailand. And because we are men married to Thai women vs foreign women married to a Thai man, we don't have the same path to citizenship (actually, virtually no chance at all) as foreign women. I've paid taxes, and I've contributed to the well being of Thai society is spades as compared to an 'average' Thai. And this is just one point. The OP outlined many points that I have to agree with.

So, this post is worth discussion. Acknowledging the patronage system was an excellent observation. And working within the system to open dialog with Thais in an attempt to change the system for the benefit of both Thais and foreigners who call Thailand their 'home' is not some absurd idea. If enough like minded individuals got together, it would be feasible to 'lobby' the government in an attempt to change the system. It would take time, energy, and immense patience, but doing something is better than blindly accepting the status quo, or simple complaining about it endlessly.

So OP, if this is a call to organize in order to influence the Thai system, consider me in. It's not an impossibility, but it would take a lot of work - although, not the type of work that requires a work permit.

You use the same argument as many others do. If you are married to a Thai. Perhaps if all these things are such a big deal to people they should double think getting married to a Thai.

There are no secrets it is just that many people walk into the situation with their eyes closed. Then open them up and want to change every thing.

I know it is not a popular idea but how about letting Thailand be Thailand and sitting back and seeing what real changes this new government will bring in to being. Maybe one of them will be a shall we say ombudsman for foreigners. For sure there will be changes when the Asan (sorry can't remember the correct term) opens. At the moment I think we are rather helpless to do any thing. There is to many things happening now for the Government to take on more problems.

[ggt]

Haven't you read the signs posted along most major roadways around Chiang Mai...there is an undercurrent of disdain for those things that foreigners bring to the Chiang Mai community that has at least some Thais upset...mainly booze and bars and loud music...but hang in there...things will likely get worse as time goes on...This is Thailand...

[poweratradio]

Considering the types of dross that is arriving from the west into Thailand lately I am glad that farangs are not permitted to gain any real footholds in Chiang Mai.

The simple fact is that foreigners of little wealth are not needed or wanted in Thailand. It is still possible for those who can bring a reasonable amount of foreign investment into the country that actually benefits the Thais to do business here. For example the British bicycle guy that is expanding his business all over Thailand and so on.

More subjective beliefs. I do hope the quality of replies can improve soon!

Did you even read my post man? I was talking about musicians and yoga and tai chi groups and teachers getting busted for advancing the lives of the citizens here, thai and farang alike. Then you enter talking about 'dross'.

And not all of life is measured by fat cat businessmen who have millions to invest. I was referring to the arts, the things that add to communities and their wellbeing.

Please add something worthwhile here, or go to another thread. And, at the absolute minimum, read my OP properly.

I have read your OP properly and I will tell you (WHAT IS NOT WORTHWHILE) your OP.... What it boils down too is a suggestion by a foreigner in a host country wanting to rabble rouse the masses into action where none is required. If you like all the freedom you claim should be yours with the changing of times. GO HOME enjoy. Further to your personal yes personal thinking here; be advised that your host country in currently experiencing a Military takeover and is operating under military law. Your lucky to be allowed to enjoy the scenery.

[ianf]

Quote the OP -People been living in Thailand for years, reporting in every three months like a common criminal let out of prison and placed under limited freedom of movement. Unquote

Costs 47 baht to 90 day report by mail - some hardship

Multiple entry stamp - come and go as I please. No hardship.

Whatever are you talking about ?

Not all the hardship directly caused by the Thai system. Now the British consulate is refusing or are unable to notarise documents, where does this leave us retirees who rely on this service?

[khwaibah]

Quote the OP -People been living in Thailand for years, reporting in every three months like a common criminal let out of prison and placed under limited freedom of movement. Unquote

Costs 47 baht to 90 day report by mail - some hardship

Multiple entry stamp - come and go as I please. No hardship.

Whatever are you talking about ?

Not all the hardship directly caused by the Thai system. Now the British consulate is refusing or are unable to notarise documents, where does this leave us retirees who rely on this service?

Bangkok. BTW it looks like the Aussies are joining you in doing a hasty retreat to Bangkok according to another thread. Post 58. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793674-british-consulate-chiang-mai-to-no-longer-offer-notarial-and-documentary-services/page-3#entry8983576

Edited January 25, 2015 by khwaibah

[sakaew]

I agree with all you say.

I also agree with those who suggest nothing will change in Thailand any time soon.

If we accept that we need someone to open a few doors for us--which is EXACTLY what the Thais do-- is it possible to find a Thai person with similar interests to yourself?

A few moths ago in Pattaya, I saw signs about a jazz saxophonist appearing in Pattaya.

I agree you're pushing s**t uphill to do what you want to do--and I agree your aims are well worthwhile--maybe look for an appropriate Thai person to open those doors.

There are PLENTY of Thai musos in Pattaya, and maybe there are plenty in CM too.

Finding a connected muso ??

Interested in helping you?

Possible.

PS If I had visited CM BEFORE I got entangled in Pattaya....I would have bought a house in CM.

There's NO comparison to my mind....CM is a VASTLY better place, at least for me.