Immigration Promenada One Stop Service 2016-2017

[Kohsamida]

28 minutes ago, CMsojourner said:

Agree with everything Nancy said. While not trying to derail this useful discussion about visa conversion, you may want to consider the following in making plans for late June and through July -- CM Immigration has yet to announce their move dates to their new Airport Provincial Immigration building, however, as a precedent three years ago they shut down for nearly a whole week (around the beginning of July) when they made their last move to Promenada. Now that their new building is nearing completion, would anticipate some sort of similar temp shut down when many services move back. Of course, this is all speculation until we all hear of some sort of official announcement, but consider this possibility as a factor when making short term plans, especially within the next 6 weeks or so. It could cost additional lead time.

LOL as if things weren't already crazy with IMM at Promenada, this would really push things over the top!  I'm going over to Promenada tomorrow morning at 8:30am.  According to NancyL, all I need to do is show up and get in queue, and that I do NOT need anything but my Receipt of notification that landlord filed a TM30, my lease agreement, and my passport.  The other things like photo, bank letters, and photocopies of passport can wait until the date of the appointment.  I hope I understood her correctly.

 

If I have an issue getting the appointment, I'll try again the next day, and then again on the next.  However, I am seriously wondering if it just might be simpler to go out of country and apply for the change of Visa at an embassy (ie: Vientiane).  Or, maybe just "take a vacation" to Pattaya (Jomtien) where I heard Visa changes are handled in a very straight-forward manner.

 

All of this confusion and mumbo-jumbo nonsense of Promenada makes me seriously wonder if something dodgey isn't going on between IMM officials and the commercial agents, to be quite honest, because  everything about Promenada seems to be designed to force you to use an Agent. 

 

If anyone has experience of living in Chiang Mai but going to an Embassy or to another region of Thailand to do a Change of Visa, please share your thoughts!  I'm seriously thinking it might be easier than dealing with Promenada.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Thailand]

8 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

LOL as if things weren't already crazy with IMM at Promenada, this would really push things over the top!  I'm going over to Promenada tomorrow morning at 8:30am.  According to NancyL, all I need to do is show up and get in queue, and that I do NOT need anything but my Receipt of notification that landlord filed a TM30, my lease agreement, and my passport.  The other things like photo, bank letters, and photocopies of passport can wait until the date of the appointment.  I hope I understood her correctly.

 

If I have an issue getting the appointment, I'll try again the next day, and then again on the next.  However, I am seriously wondering if it just might be simpler to go out of country and apply for the change of Visa at an embassy (ie: Vientiane).  Or, maybe just "take a vacation" to Pattaya (Jomtien) where I heard Visa changes are handled in a very straight-forward manner.

 

All of this confusion and mumbo-jumbo nonsense of Promenada makes me seriously wonder if something dodgey isn't going on between IMM officials and the commercial agents, to be quite honest, because  everything about Promenada seems to be designed to force you to use an Agent. 

 

If anyone has experience of living in Chiang Mai but going to an Embassy or to another region of Thailand to do a Change of Visa, please share your thoughts!  I'm seriously thinking it might be easier than dealing with Promenada.

There is no problem dealing with Promenada.

Looks like you still have your knickers in a twist.

Why don't you read what I posted,we have helped a friend through the process in the last couple of weeks. It is simple and relatively painless and she will be hopefully attending her appointment tomorrow to complete the process.

[Kohsamida]

4 minutes ago, Thailand said:

There is no problem dealing with Promenada.

Looks like you still have your knickers in a twist.

Why don't you read what I posted,we have helped a friend through the process in the last couple of weeks. It is simple and relatively painless and she will be hopefully attending her appointment tomorrow to complete the process.

I thought I was all set with what you told me before but now I am told I do NOT need to get the TM30 or submit a TM86 or get photo or copies of passport pages, and should just go over and que up with only the Receipt of notification that my landlord filed the TM30, a copy of my lease, and my passport.  Just trying to understand what to show up with, and it seems that nobody seems to agree on what's required to "make an appointment"

[KrishnaCameb4Buddha]

Instead of spending half a day or more renewing 90 day Notification in person at Immigration, you can use EMS to mail in form, your passport, copies of passport pages, visa, etc--and include a self addressed EMS envelope!--and they will mail you everything in a week or so. The personnel at the 90 Day Notification even have pre-printed address labels in Thai where in Chiang Mai to mail everything.  (maybe this was covered in a previous post---I haven't read all the posts).  Make sure you look up everything you need to send them and make a checklist so you can get it right the first mailing.

[Thailand]

1 hour ago, Kohsamida said:

I thought I was all set with what you told me before but now I am told I do NOT need to get the TM30 or submit a TM86 or get photo or copies of passport pages, and should just go over and que up with only the Receipt of notification that my landlord filed the TM30, a copy of my lease, and my passport.  Just trying to understand what to show up with, and it seems that nobody seems to agree on what's required to "make an appointment"

I told you what the lady did and what she provided, she has an appointment for tomorrow.

 

Why don't you simply take copies of everything then you have covered all the bases.

 

[cusanus]

1 hour ago, Kohsamida said:

I thought I was all set with what you told me before but now I am told I do NOT need to get the TM30 or submit a TM86 or get photo or copies of passport pages, and should just go over and que up with only the Receipt of notification that my landlord filed the TM30, a copy of my lease, and my passport.  Just trying to understand what to show up with, and it seems that nobody seems to agree on what's required to "make an appointment"

Whenever I go to Immigration for any reason, I take signed copies of my passport. Usually, that's what they want, if not I can use them for the next 90 day report (which is more convenient by EMS unless you prefer the trip, like I do). The TM30 receipt (stub) should be stapled in your passport, anyway. Is taking a copy of your lease a problem? If so, you have your TM30 receipt, don't you. It seems to me that you're worried a lot about very little. The first few years I was here I carried a bag that had all sorts of records that I didn't need but was anxious until I got more comfortable.  Maybe being well prepared will help you relax. 

[cusanus]

Again, expressing concern about the queue for retirement extension... Normally, I arrive at 6:30AM and am done by about 10:00 roughly, but am hearing nightmare stories about having to sit on your rump as early as 2:00AM.  Any recent experiences, please relate. Thanks. 

[Kohsamida]

18 minutes ago, cusanus said:

Whenever I go to Immigration for any reason, I take signed copies of my passport. Usually, that's what they want, if not I can use them for the next 90 day report (which is more convenient by EMS unless you prefer the trip, like I do). The TM30 receipt (stub) should be stapled in your passport, anyway. Is taking a copy of your lease a problem? If so, you have your TM30 receipt, don't you. It seems to me that you're worried a lot about very little. The first few years I was here I carried a bag that had all sorts of records that I didn't need but was anxious until I got more comfortable.  Maybe being well prepared will help you relax. 

I probably am making more of this than there is but Promenada is far away (I'm over at CMU during the daytime).  The whole thing that's got me messed up is know which things I need to simply make the appointment.  I know what the full requirements are for applying for the "change of Visa"(see attachment), but I don't know what I have to provide when I apply for the appointment, and what I don't have to provide until the date of the appointment. 

 

Some have said I need everything on the list except for bank letters, while others have said I need nothing but a copy of lease agreement, a copy of the "notification that my landlord has filed a TM30" which I assume is what you refer to as a "receipt stub", and copy of my passport. 

 

So, I'm not sure what I really need to bring.

 

Complicating it further is that various people on Thai Visa have different definitions of what fulfills the TM30 requirement.  Some say I have to have the actual TM30 and that the "receipt" is something IMM gives me with a stamp on it once I present them with the TM30 (which makes no sense to me really).

[Kohsamida]

38 minutes ago, Thailand said:

I told you what the lady did and what she provided, she has an appointment for tomorrow.

 

Why don't you simply take copies of everything then you have covered all the bases.

 

That's what I plan to do even though some people are admonishing me for not just heading over there immediately (like right this minute) saying I risk running out of time if I don't  LOL.  Everybody seems to have their own take on what I would have thought to be a relatively simple procedure with a common consensus on how to do it.

 

Still though, thank you and thanks to everyone for their patience with me on this ?

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Thailand]

3 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

That's what I plan to do even though some people are admonishing me for not heading over there immediately as I risk running out of time LOL.  Everybody seems to have their own take on what I would have thought to be a relatively simple procedure.  I'm probably just over-reacting.

You should.

.

It is.

 

You are.

[cusanus]

24 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

I probably am making more of this than there is but Promenada is far away (I'm over at CMU during the daytime).  The whole thing that's got me messed up is know which things I need to simply make the appointment.  I know what the full requirements are for applying for the "change of Visa"(see attachment), but I don't know what I have to provide when I apply for the appointment, and what I don't have to provide until the date of the appointment. Complicating it further is that various people on Thai Visa have different definitions of what fulfills the TM30 requirement.  Some say I have to have the actual TM30 and that the "receipt" is something IMM gives me with a stamp on it once I present them with the TM30 (which makes no sense to me really).

 

I think I can help if the blue instruction page is official instruction. Don't fret the TM30, all they want is the receipt which should be stapled near the back of your passport, so let that go. Nancy I think mentioned that you do NOT have an appointment yet so you MUST go in ASAP or wait up to 6 weeks.  Maybe, but it looks to me like you don't need an appointment, I sure didn't, just get there within 30 days of your visa expiration to make the application. In any case, I'd go in NOW to be on the safe side. My first year I did use a bank letter for proof of foreign income meeting a certain level, but you could save yourself that trouble by going to the embassy and paying about 1800 baht to make a notarized declaration of monthly income. If that is less than 800,000 annual, then also take your bank book to show that you have the difference in your Thai bank currently.  If you don't have a letter from the bank do that ASAP and if not, get to the Embassy ASAP for the income statement. You have to book Tue or Thu online, you can't just walk in like once you could. Just down the street from the American embassy about a block or so there is a photo shop where you can drop in and get that photo done. Then scoot over to Promenada and see if you can do the application on the spot or beg them to book an appointment ASAP.  I'm pretty sure that's all you need, and I rather expect that Immigration will gladly fix you up with what comes next. If you don't have copies or photos when you get there, you can do those at Promenada, just takes a bit more time. If this is just to convert to a 90 day and you need an appointment to bridge the gap, they'll surely explain it to you. Oh, oh, for how long is the bank letter or income verification good? Could be you'll need to do those over, but at least get to Promenada and find out where you stand.  

Edited May 24, 2018 by cusanus

[Thailand]

49 minutes ago, cusanus said:

I think I can help if the blue instruction page is official instruction. Don't fret the TM30, all they want is the receipt which should be stapled near the back of your passport, so let that go. Nancy I think mentioned that you do NOT have an appointment yet so you MUST go in ASAP or wait up to 6 weeks.  Maybe, but it looks to me like you don't need an appointment, I sure didn't, just get there within 30 days of your visa expiration to make the application. In any case, I'd go in NOW to be on the safe side. My first year I did use a bank letter for proof of foreign income meeting a certain level, but you could save yourself that trouble by going to the embassy and paying about 1800 baht to make a notarized declaration of monthly income. If that is less than 800,000 annual, then also take your bank book to show that you have the difference in your Thai bank currently.  If you don't have a letter from the bank do that ASAP and if not, get to the Embassy ASAP for the income statement. You have to book Tue or Thu online, you can't just walk in like once you could. Just down the street from the American embassy about a block or so there is a photo shop where you can drop in and get that photo done. Then scoot over to Promenada and see if you can do the application on the spot or beg them to book an appointment ASAP.  I'm pretty sure that's all you need, and I rather expect that Immigration will gladly fix you up with what comes next. If you don't have copies or photos when you get there, you can do those at Promenada, just takes a bit more time. If this is just to convert to a 90 day and you need an appointment to bridge the gap, they'll surely explain it to you. Oh, oh, for how long is the bank letter or income verification good? Could be you'll need to do those over, but at least get to Promenada and find out where you stand.  

Oh dear no wonder he is confused.

 

100% he has to get an appointment , it's the most important part of the process to change tourist visa to "o" pending application of "extension of stay" based on retirement.

[cusanus]

3 hours ago, Thailand said:

Oh dear no wonder he is confused.

 

100% he has to get an appointment , it's the most important part of the process to change tourist visa to "o" pending application of "extension of stay" based on retirement.

Yeah, that's changed since I came. The blue page of instructions is for after the O is received. Just take the passport and copies and make an appointment to change to Non-O. What's so hard about that? 

[Kohsamida]

4 hours ago, Thailand said:

You should.

.

It is.

 

You are.

I need to learn to write like you do; short, and to the point ?  Thanks, I'm taking your advice!

[Kohsamida]

5 hours ago, cusanus said:

I think I can help if the blue instruction page is official instruction. Don't fret the TM30, all they want is the receipt which should be stapled near the back of your passport, so let that go. Nancy I think mentioned that you do NOT have an appointment yet so you MUST go in ASAP or wait up to 6 weeks.  Maybe, but it looks to me like you don't need an appointment, I sure didn't, just get there within 30 days of your visa expiration to make the application. In any case, I'd go in NOW to be on the safe side. My first year I did use a bank letter for proof of foreign income meeting a certain level, but you could save yourself that trouble by going to the embassy and paying about 1800 baht to make a notarized declaration of monthly income. If that is less than 800,000 annual, then also take your bank book to show that you have the difference in your Thai bank currently.  If you don't have a letter from the bank do that ASAP and if not, get to the Embassy ASAP for the income statement. You have to book Tue or Thu online, you can't just walk in like once you could. Just down the street from the American embassy about a block or so there is a photo shop where you can drop in and get that photo done. Then scoot over to Promenada and see if you can do the application on the spot or beg them to book an appointment ASAP.  I'm pretty sure that's all you need, and I rather expect that Immigration will gladly fix you up with what comes next. If you don't have copies or photos when you get there, you can do those at Promenada, just takes a bit more time. If this is just to convert to a 90 day and you need an appointment to bridge the gap, they'll surely explain it to you. Oh, oh, for how long is the bank letter or income verification good? Could be you'll need to do those over, but at least get to Promenada and find out where you stand.  

Some good ideas for sure.  I'm just going to go over to Promenada tomorrow.  I cant make it there until the afternoon so doubt I'll be able to Q for appointment but at least I can scope things out, maybe get my Certificate of Residence (for my drivers license), photos, forms, etc, and then plan on hitting the place bright and early on Monday morning.

 

I had to go to my bank today anyway so asked for them to up update my bank book, and asked for the two letter.  I know they are only valid for 7 days and I might have to get them again for the appointment date but WTH, I was there so why not get them. 

 

I got the "guarantor" letter but the bank officer said they could not furnish a letter or document that verified that my funds (over 800,000 baht) came from outside of Thailand. 

 

The bank officer insisted that it was not necessary because my bank passbook shows a 3-letter code next to each deposit and the ones from the USA are designated "FTT" (foreign transfer). 

 

The bank officer said that Immigration would understand what the code meant and accept this as "proof" .  Just to make me feel better she wrote "FTT" on the last large of my passbook, and then "Foreign Transfer" in Thai next to it. 

 

Anybody care to chime in on whether you think Immigration will accept this as "proof"?

 

Anyway, I THINK I am in good shape.  Certainly has been a learning experience ?

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Kohsamida]

4 hours ago, Thailand said:

...Oh dear no wonder he is confused. ...

 

My point exactly.  Don't get me wrong; I truly appreciate everyone's input because they are genuinely trying to be helpful.  It's just that when everyone has a slightly different twist on things, it gets real confusing to the point where you loose the ability to sort fact from fiction. 

 

Nonetheless, everyone on this forum has been great!  So many forum sites are quite the opposite, with threads that trail off into into LaLa land, or people who think they are clever and witty, writing meaningless dribble that does nothing to advance the thread, or out-and-out nasty people who just want to flame and pick fights.

 

Not at all the case here; ThaiVisa is a really nice community of smart and like-minded people and I'm glad I found it!  

Edited May 24, 2018 by Kohsamida

[NancyL]

38 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Some good ideas for sure.  I'm just going to go over to Promenada tomorrow.  I cant make it there until the afternoon so doubt I'll be able to Q for appointment but at least I can scope things out, maybe get my Certificate of Residence (for my drivers license), photos, forms, etc, and then plan on hitting the place bright and early on Monday morning.

 

I had to go to my bank today anyway so asked for them to up update my bank book, and asked for the two letter.  I know they are only valid for 7 days and I might have to get them again for the appointment date but WTH, I was there so why not get them. 

 

I got the "guarantor" letter but the bank officer said they could not furnish a letter or document that verified that my funds (over 800,000 baht) came from outside of Thailand. 

 

The bank officer insisted that it was not necessary because my bank passbook shows a 3-letter code next to each deposit and the ones from the USA are designated "FTT" (foreign transfer). 

 

The bank officer said that Immigration would understand what the code meant and accept this as "proof" .  Just to make me feel better she wrote "FTT" on the last large of my passbook, and then "Foreign Transfer" in Thai next to it. 

 

Anybody care to chime in on whether you think Immigration will accept this as "proof"?

 

Anyway, I THINK I am in good shape.  Certainly has been a learning experience ?

 

{Yes, the three digit code of FTT next to the deposit in your bankbook is proof of foreign origin.  Immigration will accept it.  Thank goodness you didn't bring the funds in as cash as others have done, myself included, and hoped no one at Immigration asked about the source.  They didn't in my case but that was many years ago, back before Imm. figured out how to monetize their chaos and disorganization by deliberately throwing up hurdles.  

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

{Yes, the three digit code of FTT next to the deposit in your bankbook is proof of foreign origin.  Immigration will accept it.  Thank goodness you didn't bring the funds in as cash as others have done, myself included, and hoped no one at Immigration asked about the source.  They didn't in my case but that was many years ago, back before Imm. figured out how to monetize their chaos and disorganization by deliberately throwing up hurdles.  

Thanks for the reassurance, and thanks for all your help as well.  You've all been wonderful and I hope I will be able to help others on here to the same degree in the future.  This is a great forum!

[NigelKennedy]

Best Friend Visa

Ok used to use G4T for yearly visa and they recently phoned me saying they are best Friend Visa and charge 9,200 to renew plus multiple exit and will collect and deliver to house. Anybody used them ?

Went to Tian at promenada and they want 12,000 and takes a couple of days as have to queue,just waited two hours ast year and all finished. Anybody know what is going on.

[Sparkles]

2 minutes ago, NigelKennedy said:

Best Friend Visa

Ok used to use G4T for yearly visa and they recently phoned me saying they are best Friend Visa and charge 9,200 to renew plus multiple exit and will collect and deliver to house. Anybody used them ?

Went to Tian at promenada and they want 12,000 and takes a couple of days as have to queue,just waited two hours ast year and all finished. Anybody know what is going on.

Well a friend recently used G4 T for extension,re entries,they had texted him months ago regarding their lew location (he has used them for 2 years)             He said that he saved quite a bit using then rather than Tian but he's out of the country,on the road, at the moment so cant confirm.                                             I think with Tian they are relying on being at Promenada. Seems Imm staff numbers are down at Promenada,setting up new office hopefully ?

 

Interesting what will happen with agents at the new airport facility when it opens

[Bill97]

Yeah, that's changed since I came. The blue page of instructions is for after the O is received. Just take the passport and copies and make an appointment to change to Non-O. What's so hard about that? 

Nothing really. But this forum is mostly about making east things difficult.


Sent from my iPod touch using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[jeffandgop]

On 5/24/2018 at 11:58 AM, KrishnaCameb4Buddha said:

Instead of spending half a day or more renewing 90 day Notification in person at Immigration, you can use EMS to mail in form, your passport, copies of passport pages, visa, etc--and include a self addressed EMS envelope!--and they will mail you everything in a week or so. The personnel at the 90 Day Notification even have pre-printed address labels in Thai where in Chiang Mai to mail everything.  (maybe this was covered in a previous post---I haven't read all the posts).  Make sure you look up everything you need to send them and make a checklist so you can get it right the first mailing.

DO NOT send your passport. That is not correct guidance. 

[Thailand]

You can bet that at least one of the agents has already staked out their claim within kicking distance of the new old offices.

 

 

5 hours ago, Sparkles said:

Well a friend recently used G4 T for extension,re entries,they had texted him months ago regarding their lew location (he has used them for 2 years)             He said that he saved quite a bit using then rather than Tian but he's out of the country,on the road, at the moment so cant confirm.                                             I think with Tian they are relying on being at Promenada. Seems Imm staff numbers are down at Promenada,setting up new office hopefully ?

 

Interesting what will happen with agents at the new airport facility when it opens

 

[cusanus]

I probably sound like a broken record, but has anyone gone to Promenada yet for a retirement extension? I'm used to arriving at 7:30AM, but last posts on that matter seems people were saying you had to be there crazy early, like 3:00AM or something. Would help to know what to expect. 

[Kohsamida]

5 hours ago, cusanus said:

I probably sound like a broken record, but has anyone gone to Promenada yet for a retirement extension? I'm used to arriving at 7:30AM, but last posts on that matter seems people were saying you had to be there crazy early, like 3:00AM or something. Would help to know what to expect. 

Im wondering too.  Is this your first application for an extension or are you renewing an existing extension?  The post I read about arriving so early was referring to renewing an extension I believe.  Not sure if there’s a distinction in terms of how long the line is.  Just trying to sort out the facts because I am converting a tourist visa to non-O and will be facing this in a few months too.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Kohsamida

[Pesky]

I renewed my 1 year extension in March. Arrived at 7.15 with about 20 others already there in line. Was allocated ticket number at 8.35  & was told to return at around 2pm. Was then processed without problem & left Immigration 15 minutes later.

[Sparkles]

8 hours ago, cusanus said:

I probably sound like a broken record, but has anyone gone to Promenada yet for a retirement extension? I'm used to arriving at 7:30AM, but last posts on that matter seems people were saying you had to be there crazy early, like 3:00AM or something. Would help to know what to expect. 

Well if you have been following this thread ,which I presume you have,there are no 2 days the same at Imm so doubt you will get a definitive answer it will be  purely speculation.

 

Your options, that have been also well covered before on this thread, are either rent a line sitter or an Agent.The former will be far cheaper.

If you decide to DYI  good luck.

[Kohsamida]

4 minutes ago, Sparkles said:

...either rent a line sitter or an Agent.The former will be far cheaper.

If you decide to DYI  good luck.

Just out of curiosity, how do you go about renting a line sitter?

[Kohsamida]

12 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Just out of curiosity, how do you go about renting a line sitter?

n/m, i found the answer on Google.  For anyone else curious > https://chiangmaibuddy.com/visa-heaven/immigration-queue-number-service/

[Fore Man]

I’d like to offer a humble opinion on the practice of using an agent (or not) to transact an annual visa extension versus DIY. I recall all too well those horrid conditions at the old immigration office, arriving before dawn to claim a place in the queue only to then wait in cramped conditions for my number to be called. Moving the procedure to Promenada eased the congestion issue but still meant a long wait in line and the need to get there unreasonably early. Then along came agent services in the form of G4T et.al. which made it all ridiculously easy for what seemed an acceptable price. They removed the anguish of that once-per-year visit and made it almost a pleasant experience. 

 

My my point is that I see three general groupings of expats who undergo their extensions:  first, those that doggedly insist on doing it themselves, no matter the cost in time, physical discomfort and energy, frittering away hours on end; a second grouping in those that have financial hardships and simply can not afford to pay what amounts to THB 420 to pay the THB 5,000 agent fee when amortized over 12 months; and a third group who either can afford the fee and/or who have decided to make it a completely painless experience.  Some like myself were also employed and could not waste an entire business day to the Immigration bureaucracy.  Using an agent made good sense.  Tian Visa, for example, offers a special rate of THB 5,000 that also includes filing of four 90-day TM-30 reports at no additional fee. Dealing with such agents is truly a blessing and extending my visa no longer causes angst as my due date approaches. I’m also of an age and with enough encroaching physical issues that well mitigates hiring an agent.

 

If every expat opted opted to use an agent the system would likely be quickly jammed, or these agents would undoubtedly be forced to increase their pricing to attract only the upper end of clients who would be willing to pay even higher fees with no regard for the value of services so rendered.  Right now I judge that their pricing is acceptable for what I receive in return. Life remains uncomplicated and I can enjoy other pursuits that are more productive or meaningful.

 

I am not trolling here and definitely not attempting to poll TV readers in Chiang Mai ...simply offering a reasoned opinion after undergoing my own 14 annual extensions, the first of which was done in Bangkok and which set me back THB 10,000 plus the required Immigration fees.  In comparison, shelling out THB 5,000 thirteen years later seems like a real bargain.  I’ve found what works for me best, but your own needs and preferences certainly may vary.  

 

Good luck no matter which method you decide to employ.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Fore Man
added missing word