Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[citybiker]

I'm aware it's just one poll, however if this momentum continues the it could be a political game changer.

Brexit more important than keeping the UK together, public say in poll for the Telegraph - The Telegraph

https://apple.news/AqtZpOKNuQ0eGrwbttGi0WQ

For Sturgeon & May....especially for TM.

The SNP stills fails to grasp blocking from delaying....the ranting, frothing and bile from the 2 usual suspects is becoming very tiresome....

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[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, citybiker said:

I'm aware it's just one poll, however if this momentum continues the it could be a political game changer.

Brexit more important than keeping the UK together, public say in poll for the Telegraph - The Telegraph

https://apple.news/AqtZpOKNuQ0eGrwbttGi0WQ

For Sturgeon & May....especially for TM.

The SNP stills fails to grasp blocking from delaying....the ranting, frothing and bile from the 2 usual suspects is becoming very tiresome....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course we only have the media to receive our information, but as with Brexit, the media has a particular editorial line and delivers each story tailored to that line. The ranting, frothing an bile that you mention seems, to me, to be manufactured outrage of those outlets who are pro-unionist, ramping up the ante. I accept that rabble rousing is not only one-sided; sadly that is the state of politics in the west in general.

 

Even this article creates outrage where there is none by insinuating that Scotland is considering holding a referendum outwith its competence - simply because the FM refused to reveal her strategy while it is in development; is that not the same situation as the PM refusing to reveal her Brexit negotiations strategy while it is under development?

 

But there are no mass rallies against the English; there is no SNP mandated anti-English rhetoric being repeated at town halls up and down the country; there are no irresponsible, divisive speeches being given by SNP leaders to generate outrage amongst the natives - the Scottish vision of independence is not exclusive in any way, in fact it is totally the opposite.

 

I am certain that if you take any random independence supporter in isolation, they would most likely tell you that their desire for independence is not intended as a slight against the other members in the union; that they do not wish to cause offence or hurt; nor is it a rejection of the past, but that they simply see a group of countries that have moved to a point where they have significantly different ideals and expectations, and that they recognise that these differences cannot be reconciled within the union as it currently stands.

[stander]

Which currency would an independent Scotland use?  Listen to this SNP MP's answer (at 20:46)

 

 

[RuamRudy]

10 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I am not saying you lied as such; but you did pull a trick much favoured by politicians of all parties; "I may have said x, but let me clarify that by saying y!"

 

The rest of your post is your usual rubbishing of posters who raise issues you cannot counter by any other means.

 

I found the following on just the first two pages of this topic.

 

 

This in response to facts about the oil industry made by someone who does have far more experience than you.

 

 

There are many more examples from you scattered throughout this and other threads on this subject.

 

 

I had promised myself that I was not going to rise to your baiting, but one of my many flaws is that I cannot stand by and allow inaccuracies to stand unchallenged.

 

The comment regarding my professional experience was when I replied to a post by a commentator who suggested that English consumers would boycott expensive Scottish oil for cheaper foreign imports. I pointed out that the commentator did not understand how hydrocarbons are traded, which resulted in another poster retorting with the single comment along the lines of 'neither do you', hence I felt obliged to share a little of my background to try to help emphasise that yes, I did understand how hydrocarbons are traded (as I mentioned, it's one of my flaws). That this second commentator has what he portrays as a wealth of international experience in the oil and gas industry does not make the original point correct. If you also intend to boycott expensive Scottish oil for cheaper foreign imports, good luck with that. If you think that the OP had a pertinent point, then you too do not know how hydrocarbons are traded.

 

Anyway, as I indicated previously, I do not seek your responses to my points. Your whole strategy is to play the man, not the ball; not how I prefer to play.

[RuamRudy]

41 minutes ago, stander said:

Which currency would an independent Scotland use?  Listen to this SNP MP's answer (at 20:46)

 

 

 

I agree with you - one of the key failings of the SNP during the last referendum was to nail this down. They cannot afford to leave it blowing in the wind yet again. However, according to this article in the FT, the plans are being developed and to be confirmed in the autumn.

[whatawonderfulday]

56 minutes ago, stander said:

Which currency would an independent Scotland use?  Listen to this SNP MP's answer (at 20:46)

 

 

That blustered reply  sounded awfully like "we hav'nt got a clue, as we havn't thought it through yet"

[evadgib]

The loudest applause came when someone suggested the English/rest of the union would have evicted the Jocks at the first attempt if they had been asked. I'm surprised a poll to that effect hasn't yet emerged; perhaps even been started by the dirty tricks dept @ the SNP.

Edited March 18, 2017 by evadgib

[Grouse]

I'm aware it's just one poll, however if this momentum continues the it could be a political game changer.
Brexit more important than keeping the UK together, public say in poll for the Telegraph - The Telegraph
https://apple.news/AqtZpOKNuQ0eGrwbttGi0WQ
For Sturgeon & May....especially for TM.
The SNP stills fails to grasp blocking from delaying....the ranting, frothing and bile from the 2 usual suspects is becoming very tiresome....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The idea is to have a referendum after the negotiations but before the "divorce absolute". Sounds right to me! Sturgeon was well received by EU yesterday which is very encouraging

I note the Torygraph avoided the key question: Do you still support Brexit even though it means leaving the single market? I guess they were too frightened


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[evadgib]

Given the general election only took 35 days from start to finish the PM could call SNPs bluff by declaring a referendum to be conducted by 30 April & tell them to get on with it. Blame for failure to comply for whatever reason would then fall on the SNP while HMG could put the matter to bed for at least half a century. Eligibility to be restricted to resident Jocks of 3 years standing & over 18.

 

Sorted.

Edited March 18, 2017 by evadgib

[nontabury]

15 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Some follow-up reading:

 

May just handed Nicola Sturgeon the greatest gift she could ever ask for

 

"Since the Brexit vote, the prime minister has worked tirelessly to conform to the SNP stereotype of Westminster. They ignored Scottish wishes and decided to pull Britain out the single market. They dismissed SNP efforts to find a way for Scotland to stay in. They failed to give them a meaningful role in the great repeal bill overhaul of British law. They threatened to block the devolution of agriculture and fisheries from Brussels to Edinburgh. Sturgeon may as well have written out the script, sent it to May, and have her follow it word for word."

  There was Never,Never any chance of Brussels agreeing to devolve Agriculture and Fishers. This is why the Scottish fishing industry,along with all the British fishing industry is so anti the E.U.

Prior  to the British Government of the day,( Heath) willingness to sacrifice a very important industry in order that we could gain access to the EEC, unlike the Germans who protected their automobile industry,and the French with their Wine and Agriculture industry. 

The port of Hull was the largest fishing port in the world,followed closely by Grimsby. Today there are no trawlers fishing out of Hull.The only fish landing in Hull nowadays is from Icelandic and European boats.

 

  How has the Scottish fishing industry faired? unfortunately not much better. The big worry now is, will the British government again agree to sacrifice the British fishing industry in order to obtain a soft Brexit.

 

  

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by nontabury

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, nontabury said:

  There was Never,Never any chance of Brussels agreeing to devolve Agriculture and Fishers. This is why the Scottish fishing industry,along with all the British fishing industry is so anti the E.U.

Prior  to the British Government of the day,( Heath) willingness to sacrifice a very important industry in order that we could gain access to the EEC, unlike the Germans who protected their automobile industry,and the French with their Wine and Agriculture industry. 

The port of Hull was the largest fishing port in the world,followed closely by Grimsby. Today there are no trawlers fishing out of Hull.The only fish landing in Hull nowadays is from Icelandic and European boats.

  How has the Scottish fishing industry faired? unfortunately not much better. 

 

  

 

The Scottish fleet accounts for 62% of the UK's total catch - why not give control of Scottish fishing to the Scottish government post Brexit? The new situation will be little different to the old, otherwise.

Edited March 18, 2017 by RuamRudy
Edited to insert link to stats

[stander]

This sums up the risks if Scotland does go it alone.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/12141257/Imagine-the-mess-an-independent-Scotland-would-be-in-right-now.html

[citybiker]

A lot has changed since 1707 however we don't live in the Jacobite era.

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[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

A lot has changed since 1707 however we don't live in the Jacobite era.

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What happened with a number of events in the past still impinges on the present and will continue to do so in the future. One doesn't start with a blank page but rather in the case of the English consitution a number of precedents going back a long, long, way. One only has to consider Magna Carta to know that this is the case.

[RuamRudy]

40 minutes ago, stander said:

This sums up the risks if Scotland does go it alone.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/12141257/Imagine-the-mess-an-independent-Scotland-would-be-in-right-now.html

Look at the mess the UK in in now. Do you really think that this is a country any right minded person would want to remain part of if they had the opportunity to go it alone, with an aspiration of righting all these wrongs?

 

"it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

 

It's Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.

 

It's Britain which has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country, Europe's greatest regional inequality, productivity 16% behind the average for advanced economies and the worst record on industrial production of the rich world. It's Britain whose elite has a radical ideology: 40% of the total value of all privatisations in the Western world between 1980 and 1996 happened in the UK"

[mommysboy]

If Nats have the courage of their convictions, couldn't they just introduce an independence policy in the next elections?  Perhaps a referendum is necessary- I don't know.

 

And seriously, my guess is there would be quite awful economic repercussions for both UK and Scotland. There can be all sorts of 'ricochet' repercussions as well.  History has shown this to be true, eg, English reformation period.

 

In the last referendum, The Sturgeon, Sweeney Todd, et al, promised everything to everybody.  It was obvious there would be a massive budget deficit. The situation would be even worse now, due to the collapse of oil prices. Moreover, new countries face a severe test when borrowing.  In Scotland's case it has to leave the union with a very big public debt- I believe it would be around 10% of UK debt.  All of this would be owed to UK- hardly a great debt to have considering relationships are likely to be frosty at the least. Last time round, the Scots Nats couldn't even grasp the need to have their own currency, a currency which would immediately face a 20% devaluation if history is anything to go by.  It wouldn't have any trading agreement with EU.  It could leave without honouring the debt, but bankruptcy would inevitably follow, since it would have to be borrowing at astronomiical rates, and would make itself something of a pariah.  This would hardly endear Scotland to the EU.  That wouldn't really be a big problem, as Scottish trade with EU only accounts for 16% of exports, wheras a whopping 60% is with the UK, which would now be possibly be subject to tariffs, and the hard border controls at the new Hadrian's Wall, which has to be paid for by Scotland.  Scotland might also face nationalism of a sort- from disaffected islands who are staunchly pro Union.  It's not inconceivable that they would choose to go with the UK, support is that high. 

 

On the plus side, it has independence at last.  It owns everything it has, which includes oil revenues, and who is to say there won't be a recovery in oil prices.  It probably would be able to join the cherished EU in some guise or another once the economic shock dies down.  It reclaims key fishing territories, and can formulate agriculture policies.  Like the UK, it can negotiate its own trade agreements with whom it chooses, which would likely involve a kiss and make up with the rest of UK.  To lessen the shock of losing the UK pound, it could introduce Jock Pound.  I dare say they will be able to get Eastenders some way or another.  And of course, it's a fallacy to say any country will not survive- they do, and in Scotland's case it is efficient, and up to EU equivalence which is no mean standard.  The country would also become even more ripe for inward investment because of devaluation.

 

Just a broader point: no one knows what is to happen with Brexit.  It seems likely that there will be the much vaunted hard Brexit. But there is a face saver in all this- it's called equivalence, and would certainly apply to financial services industry.  By the time a couple of sweetheart concessions are made in the car industry for instance, suddenly EU appears to have its pound of flesh and UK can proudly wave the exit banner, along with a fudge of a treaty that in fact changes very little. In public, they wave fists and stride about like heavyweight champions, in private they smile warmly and pat each other's back.  Sheer fantasy! Is it?

 

But my main point: has any nationalist ever thought about any of this?  I for one would be interested to hear how they think things could pan out.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by mommysboy
typo

[Baerboxer]

56 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Look at the mess the UK in in now. Do you really think that this is a country any right minded person would want to remain part of if they had the opportunity to go it alone, with an aspiration of righting all these wrongs?

 

"it's Britain that is the fourth most unequal developed country on earth, in which pay has in recent years fallen faster than in all but three EU countries, in which people work the third longest hours in Europe for the second lowest wages in the OECD despite having Europe's third highest housing costs, highest train fares and the second worst levels of fuel poverty.

 

It's Britain which has the least happy children in the developed world, the highest infant mortality rate in Western Europe and some of the worst child poverty in the industrialised world. It's British elderly people who are the fourth poorest pensioners in the EU. It's Britain which has the eighth biggest gender pay gap in Europe and child care costs much higher than most European countries.

 

It's Britain which has a wealth gap twice as wide as any other EU country, Europe's greatest regional inequality, productivity 16% behind the average for advanced economies and the worst record on industrial production of the rich world. It's Britain whose elite has a radical ideology: 40% of the total value of all privatisations in the Western world between 1980 and 1996 happened in the UK"

 

And here ends the party political broadcast on behalf of the SNP.

[sandyf]

On 3/13/2017 at 7:42 PM, mfd101 said:

Brexit, Scottish independence, Quebec, Corsica, Brittany, Catalania and on and on - if you hold enough referenda on any particular subject, sooner or later you end up actually falling over the cliff - to everyone's astonishment and some dismay.

 

That's democracy for you.

Ridiculous statement, you cannot generalise in this manner, each country has there own way of doing things.

The Scottish referendum in 2014 was held on the basis of a 650 page white paper, can you say the same about brexit, thought not.

It is very easy for people to see the result as a vote to remain in the UK rather than a rejection of Alex Salmond's white paper. The previous white paper is now dead in the water so there is absolutely no valid reason why the Scottish government should not put forward a new white paper. It would become a new referendum and not a repeat of the previous scenario, an argument put up by many.

It would be then up to the people to participate as they saw fit.

[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Ridiculous statement, you cannot generalise in this manner, each country has there own way of doing things.

The Scottish referendum in 2014 was held on the basis of a 650 page white paper, can you say the same about brexit, thought not.

It is very easy for people to see the result as a vote to remain in the UK rather than a rejection of Alex Salmond's white paper. The previous white paper is now dead in the water so there is absolutely no valid reason why the Scottish government should not put forward a new white paper. It would become a new referendum and not a repeat of the previous scenario, an argument put up by many.

It would be then up to the people to participate as they saw fit.

That's one interpretation.  Meanwhile, I contend most would see it as nothing more that a rerun demanded by sore losers.

[RuamRudy]

 

And here ends the party political broadcast on behalf of the SNP.

That is what it is for - hopefully more people will wake up to the staggering inequality and poverty that blights the UK. This is not conjecture or spin, but a cited list of things of which I feel we should be ashamed.

I appreciate that not everyone shares my outrage at how this country is run, but personal convictions are exactly that.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I agree with you - one of the key failings of the SNP during the last referendum was to nail this down. They cannot afford to leave it blowing in the wind yet again. However, according to this article in the FT, the plans are being developed and to be confirmed in the autumn.

Yes, there were several major flaws, currency being one, also the misconception they could walk straight into the EU. One of the main concerns I had was the proposed defense budget, if I remember right he proposed to lease aircraft from the RAF. It was all far too ambitious and a potential black hole, the last thing a fledgling economy needs. I think that the failings in the plan had a lot to do with the result.

One would hope that if they do decide on a second attempt that a more realistic viewpoint is observed.

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That is what it is for - hopefully more people will wake up to the staggering inequality and poverty that blights the UK. The list was not conjecture or spin, but a cited list things that I feel we should be ashamed of.

I appreciate that not everyone shares my outrage at how this country is run, but personal convictions are exactly that.

 

I agree. Some of the points are unfairly represented, eg, productivity gap is partly accounted for because we are services based, but in essence we haven't got much to shout about, beyond an increasingly challenged NHS.

 

Real wages have not increased for nearly a decade and will not for at least the next few years.  Wealth inequality is shameful, and undeniable.  Housing costs are a disgrace.  Pensioners receive a pittance, aside from a sizable minority who benefit from extortionate private pension pay outs.  NHS can only spend 3400 Euros per head, whereas even France manages 3800, and some peer countries as much as 7000.

 

Sadly this posting is more truth than not.

[whatawonderfulday]

2 hours ago, citybiker said:

A lot has changed since 1707 however we don't live in the Jacobite era.

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but many people on this forum and in Scotland still hark back to those times

[mommysboy]

8 minutes ago, whatawonderfulday said:

but many people on this forum and in Scotland still hark back to those times

A very astute observation.

[mommysboy]

Forgetting about the personalities involved, this is the conversation we should be having:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39309133

 

Note: And not another devo sham.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The Scottish fleet accounts for 62% of the UK's total catch - why not give control of Scottish fishing to the Scottish government post Brexit? The new situation will be little different to the old, otherwise.

% of what is the question. Up to the early 70's the quantity of fish landed in British ports was 1,000,000 tonne per year, of which the British fleet landed 948,000 tonne.Since that time  only 450,000 tonne landed at British ports. more than half by E.U  boats, including those from Spain, who are estimated to catch more fish in U.K. waters then our own fishing fleet. Much of the U.K. catch being crab,makerel ,lobster etc.During this period the average tonnage of British fishing boats have contracted to 30 tonne while others such as Lithuania have increased to 309 tonne. NOW what I want to know,is why din't Bertie Armstrong the Chief Executive of the Scottish Fisheries Association consult the more knowledgeable N.S and RuamRudy, before stating how critical he and his members are of the hated  Common Fisheries Policy, and of  N.S attempt to bypass the Brexit vote and keep Scotland in the E.U. Instead stating that Brexit provides a sea of opportunity to breath new life into our coastal communities,.especially the white fish sector.  

 

attached one fishing dock, pre 1970, and as it is today.          

[7by7]

Satire; but it contains a valid point; see from 2:20 to 2:37.

 

 

[rott]

On 3/13/2017 at 9:07 PM, whatawonderfulday said:

But to give credit where credit is due the number of discoveries or inventions directly attributable to a Scottish person is exceptionally high given the size of the nation.  

And that doesn't even include the fried pie.

[RuamRudy]

52 minutes ago, nontabury said:

NOW what I want to know,is why din't Bertie Armstrong the Chief Executive of the Scottish Fisheries Association consult the more knowledgeable N.S and RuamRudy

I am touched and humbled that you consider me an expert on fishing, however the one small half-pound something that I caught as a boy in the Caledonian Canal probably does not qualify me as much as you think.

[citybiker]

but many people on this forum and in Scotland still hark back to those times

Sadly, The SNP's mindset hasn't left 1707.

I understand & respect their ambition however sadly the SNP are financially incompetent & not got for purpose.

Also, as it's been previously agreed upon, Scotland's finances requires radical restructuring, which is according to some ongoing instead of blatantly attempting to destruct the Union with their own self agenda.


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