Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, Basil B said:

Have you considered why more than half want to stay... 

Of course I have. I cannot speak for anyone else, but my desire for independence is not based on a whim. I am neither ignorant or dismissive of the remarkable accomplishments that the Union has achieved throughout its existence, and I can understand that there are those who place their trust in the continuation of it.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, Basil B said:

If ...and  IF there is another referendum I hope lessons will be learned from the  the Brexit farce.

 

Clear exit plan and as rejoining the EU is Sturgeons election promise  (and I suspect she will renege on that by not accepting the terms offered), if Scotland fails to rejoin the EU within 5 years there should be another referendum giving the Scott's an option to rejoin the UK.

 

The terms and conditions were clear and simple last vote: win or lose- once and for all.  And whats more they designed just about every aspect.

 

Here they are knocking again for a spurious reason, and seemingly against the will of their own folk.

 

[Baerboxer]

20 minutes ago, Basil B said:

If ...and  IF there is another referendum I hope lessons will be learned from the  the Brexit farce.

 

Clear exit plan and as rejoining the EU is Sturgeons election promise  (and I suspect she will renege on that by not accepting the terms offered), if Scotland fails to rejoin the EU within 5 years there should be another referendum giving the Scott's an option to rejoin the UK.

 

Most definitely not. 

 

Allowing a referendum for only the 7-8% of the UK population that's in Scotland to determine the future of the whole UK is scandalous. No other country would tolerate it. If there was to be a referendum then it should be the whole of the UK to vote.

And should Scotland secede then the way back is only open if all the other members first agree.

 

Most Scots don't want another referendum apparently, and many are seemingly becoming less thrilled with the EU. It's unfortunate the the ones who do want independence, at any cost, and with scant regard to the consequences make the most noise.

 

Should the UK government decide to allow and permit another referendum, then expect the fake news, lies and propaganda to be enormous.

Even if the SNP get their way and Scotland again rejects independence, then expect Sturgeon to start working to undermine Brexit, increase divisiveness and look for another excuse to hold more and more. She won't go away easily - like a bad smell.

 

[evadgib]

The SNP are no more prepared for life on the outside than the Great Train robbers were after leaving Leatherslade farm.

Edited March 16, 2017 by evadgib

[7by7]

9 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Well. as leader of the SNP, her party won 56 of the 59 Westminster seats in 2015. At the Holyrood election the following year, in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority, they won 48.8% of the seats. She has shown strong leadership since assuming the role of First Minister, and she continues to do so. I appreciate that many people do not like her for very petty, peurile reasons, but really - is this what the whole debate has come down to?

"in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority"

 

Contrived by whom?

 

Who decided the electoral system for Holyrood?

 

Most of what I can find says more or less the same as this from the Scottish Parliament

Quote

       

In 1999 the people of Scotland were given the opportunity to elect a Scottish Parliament for the first time (the Parliament before 1707 was not elected). A decision had to be made about what type of electoral system should be used. Most people wanted to avoid using the 'first past the post' system used in the UK general elections. This system can disadvantage some parties and can allow one party to form a government with an overall majority of seats but at the same time get less than half the votes cast.

Most people were looking to introduce a system which would closely reflect the views of the people of Scotland and produce a fairer match between the way people voted and the number of MSPs each party got elected. In other words, some form of proportional representation.

It was decided to use a system called the Additional Member System (AMS). This system allows people to have a local constituency MSP and also adds other members to make the overall result more proportional. In this way more viewpoints are represented in Parliament.

"Most people." Who were they?

 

Rampant Scotland in this article throw more light upon the matter.

Quote

As can be seen, Labour MPs in Scotland have accounted for over 50% of those elected to the UK Parliament in London. So when the prospect was raised again in the 1990s of a devolved Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, to look after local issues, it was clear that if the UK electoral system was adopted, Labour would invariably have a majority. While having decades of a Labour government might have suited some Labour Party activists, such an outcome would not have gained the support of other political parties for a Scottish Parliament - and that support was seen as being essential if a devolved legislature was to become a reality. In addition, it would have been more difficult to win a clear majority in favour of a devolved parliament if it was seen that one party would dominate that parliament for years to come.

Donald Dewar, the leader of the Labour Party in Scotland was a shrewd politicians - and a lawyer. He proposed a system which was a mixture of the UK "first past the post" (FPTP) sytem for the 73 constituencies (mirroring those for the UK parliament but with the Orkney and Shetland islands split into two seats for the Scottish Parliament), plus another 56 seats elected under what is called the "Additional Member System" (AMS) which is a form of proportional representation (PR). While this still gave his party a strong position as a result of the FPTP element, the hybrid system also meant that one party was less likely to be in overall control.

 So it seems that the adoption of the AMS system for elections to the Scottish parliament was down to the Scots.

 

It also seems that at the time the SNP favoured it as it meant they were likely to get more seats than under the first past the post system.

 

Of course, now that the system could be said to be working against them rather than for them it appears that they, or at least some of their supporters, have changed their minds!

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Allowing a referendum for only the 7-8% of the UK population that's in Scotland to determine the future of the whole UK is scandalous. No other country would tolerate it. If there was to be a referendum then it should be the whole of the UK to vote.

What other country would give up its right to self determination to its neighbour? The UK did not ask the rest of Europe to vote on Brexit.

 

26 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Should the UK government decide to allow and permit another referendum, then expect the fake news, lies and propaganda to be enormous.

We are well used to it. Better Together perfected the playbook.

 

26 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Even if the SNP get their way and Scotland again rejects independence, then expect Sturgeon to start working to undermine Brexit, increase divisiveness and look for another excuse to hold more and more. She won't go away easily - like a bad smell.

Anyone who works to undermine the sheer folly of Brexit should surely be encouraged?

[7by7]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Anyone who works to undermine the sheer folly of Brexit should surely be encouraged?

 As a Remain supporter who agrees that Brexit is folly; I have to say no.

 

The British people made a decision last June. Even though I do not like that decision, I do believe firmly in democracy and that decision should be acted upon.

 

Brexit will happen.

 

But then, I'm not an SNP supporter who believes that referenda should be held again and again until one finally produces the result I want.

[RuamRudy]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

"in a system deliberately contrived to prevent any one party from coming close to having a majority"

 

Contrived by whom?

 

Who decided the electoral system for Holyrood?

Maybe contrived is the wrong word because it sounds sinister, which was not my intention - possibly 'designed' would have been more appropriate.

 

Most people wanted to avoid using the 'first past the post' system used in the UK general elections. This system can disadvantage some parties and can allow one party to form a government with an overall majority of seats but at the same time get less than half the votes cast.

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 As a Remain supporter who agrees that Brexit is folly; I have to say no.

 

The British people made a decision last June. Even though I do not like that decision, I do believe firmly in democracy and that decision should be acted upon.

 

Brexit will happen.

 

But then, I'm not an SNP supporter who believes that referenda should be held again and again until one finally produces the result I want.

I don't believe I have ever suggested that it should not be followed through for England and Wales; I do not wish to interfere in their politics. I appreciate that this is leading to the "UK, not Scotland vote" argument, but I refuse to accept that so probably best we don't waste each other's time on that one.

[nontabury]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't believe I have ever suggested that it should not be followed through for England and Wales; I do not wish to interfere in their politics. I appreciate that this is leading to the "UK, not Scotland vote" argument, but I refuse to accept that so probably best we don't waste each other's time on that one.

Maybe N.S. Should insist on the whole of the U.K. Voting on this issue. Then maybe the outcome will be to her liking.

[RuamRudy]

19 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Maybe N.S. Should insist on the whole of the U.K. Voting on this issue. Then maybe the outcome will be to her liking.

Certainly if there are more Scotland haters than I suspected. Is the angry man in the video more common than I thought?

[evadgib]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39293513

[7by7]

39 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't believe I have ever suggested that it should not be followed through for England and Wales; I do not wish to interfere in their politics. I appreciate that this is leading to the "UK, not Scotland vote" argument, but I refuse to accept that so probably best we don't waste each other's time on that one.

 The UK's membership of the EU is a UK wide matter; not a local one for each constituent country or region.

 

The UK voted as a whole to leave.

 

You may refuse to accept that; but it is a fact.

[citybiker]

Certainly if there are more Scotland haters than I suspected. Is the angry man in the video more common than I thought?

I think 'Scotland Haters' summary on just a few threads on here is a poor dim to be fair, I know of at least 3 forums debating Scotland & Brexit and the majority of what I've read on other sources is pure nationalist drivel too and focusing on damaging the UK as a whole with the SNP being the main architect's.

That's not to say Scotland doesn't deserve a voice, because quite rightly it should be treated equal, like Wales and NI. The only difference is the other two are not hell bent in breaking up the Union without a coherent properly laid post policy.

I've no doubt in a post Brexit period and beyond that Scotland will equally prosper as long as all political elements allow the bigger picture to progressively proceed. Scotland voted to remain in the UK and the Uk voted to leave the EU, IIRC there was no option on the voting sheet for special internal country preference as the UK government must ensure the whole country is catered for.

Yes, it's only my viewpoint but attempting to divide a nation when we have a generation to look after post Brexit is priority, as a Scot living in England I am concerned for my remaining family back in Scotland.


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[7by7]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39293513

 From that article,

Quote

"It would be unfair to the people of Scotland that they would be being asked to make a crucial decision without the information they need to make that decision." (said Mrs. May)

Quite.

 

If Sturgeon wants another referendum, then the Scottish people should be in possession of all the facts.

 

This includes what Scotland's relationship with the EU will be post Brexit if it remains in the UK, and likewise if it leaves.

 

One has to wonder why Sturgeon does not want the Scottish people to have that information before they vote.

 

[evadgib]

Quote

One has to wonder why Sturgeon does not want the Scottish people to have that information before they vote.

Leatherslade farm 

[citybiker]

Quite.
 
If Sturgeon wants another referendum, then the Scottish people should be in possession of all the facts.
 
This includes what Scotland's relationship with the EU will be post Brexit if it remains in the UK, and likewise if it leaves.
 
One has to wonder why Sturgeon does not want the Scottish people to have that information before they vote.
 

I think that due to the poor campaigning from both Remain/leave in respect to Brexit then many of the electorate simply do not trust what's being put out to the wider domain.

The Scottish electorate should be fully informed of Scotlands intention, Sturgeon knows her EU ambitions are dead and yet the electorate do not know what the SNP's plans are, it's still on the SNP website that the parties intention is EU or bust.

Nothing concrete has been obtained to secure this ambition, yet recent events state the SNP want the EFTA now. The electorate are more confused now than they've ever been. Inform your voting electorate of your strategic aim and be honest, up front and transparency is key.



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[whatawonderfulday]

34 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 From that article,

Quite.

 

If Sturgeon wants another referendum, then the Scottish people should be in possession of all the facts.

 

This includes what Scotland's relationship with the EU will be post Brexit if it remains in the UK, and likewise if it leaves.

 

One has to wonder why Sturgeon does not want the Scottish people to have that information before they vote.

 

Simple.  The puerile buffoons who support her are incapable of understanding fundamental facts so hence basic information is not disclosed as this has the potential to cause panic amongst the deranged.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

 

 

I think that due to the poor campaigning from both Remain/leave in respect to Brexit then many of the electorate simply do not trust what's being put out to the wider domain.

The Scottish electorate should be fully informed of Scotlands intention, Sturgeon knows her EU ambitions are dead and yet the electorate do not know what the SNP's plans are, it's still on the SNP website that the parties intention is EU or bust.

Nothing concrete has been obtained to secure this ambition, yet recent events state the SNP want the EFTA now. The electorate are more confused now than they've ever been. Inform your voting electorate of your strategic aim and be honest, up front and transparency is key.



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We are being dragged into the unknown already, and by a party that few in Scotland trust to do what is in the best interests of the majority of the country. We also know that there are no plans in place for Brexit; they haven't even done an economic assessment of the impact of not reaching a deal with the EU. They are literally making it up as they go along, whilst doing nothing to mitigate against their possible failure. As if there weren't enough reasons to leave the UK, there is no credible opposition to hold these people to account.

[whatawonderfulday]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

We are being dragged into the unknown already, and by a party that few in Scotland trust to do what is in the best interests of the majority of the country. We also know that there are no plans in place for Brexit; they haven't even done an economic assessment of the impact of not reaching a deal with the EU. They are literally making it up as they go along, whilst doing nothing to mitigate against their possible failure. As if there weren't enough reasons to leave the UK, there is no credible opposition to hold these people to account.

Whilst it is a valid point that there appears to be limited clarity as to the impact of BREXIT, it is still no valid reason to open the asylum doors and let the inmates run a country

[citybiker]

 
We are being dragged into the unknown already, and by a party that few in Scotland trust to do what is in the best interests of the majority of the country. We also know that there are no plans in place for Brexit; they haven't even done an economic assessment of the impact of not reaching a deal with the EU. They are literally making it up as they go along, whilst doing nothing to mitigate against their possible failure. As if there weren't enough reasons to leave the UK, there is no credible opposition to hold these people to account.

So the SNP's bizarre & sadistic mindset is to interfere with Brexit negotiations without knowing the full facts? It's political spite as the SNP dispise the Tories, nothing more nothing less.

So Scotland doesn't trust the Tories? What's new there, time to move on from the Thatcher bashing years.

No plans for Brexit, which part of unknown territory do many still not grasp?

As for economic assessment, check out the Leave EU & other Vote to leave sources some of the economic assessments are available, there was enough media trash about the £350 a week for the NHS for a start so info is there.


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[jonwilly]

I served 23 years in The Army.

Never did I see or hear of jocks being victimised by their Welsh, Irish or English comrades.

Every English man I knew however had tales of being given a hard time in the Jock regiments, Mash Bast ard being a strange ethnic insult.

 Most of my better mates where jocks, I got along with their down to earth attitude.

England formed the Union when the wealthy Scots bankrupted themselves and their country over the Darian adventure in the 18th Century, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme.

Could 5 million folk have a successful economy, based on Whisky and Oil ?

I will go to my grave saying it's a socialist (Communist) plot and Sturgon/Salamond need to get real.

 

john

Thank you Maggie for saving UK..

[Laughing Gravy]

Many posters and politicians seem to have a short memory.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11095188/Alex-Salmond-pledges-no-second-Scottish-referendum.html

 

"Alex Salmond today pledged there would not be a second Scottish independence referendum for another generation even if he loses Thursday’s contest by a single vote."

 

He is still number two in the SNP.

[Laughing Gravy]

And if you believe this which sounds fair to me, Scotland can have their say again then which is much earlier than a generation.

 

After the Prime Minister announced that “now is not the time” for a second independence vote earlier on Thursday, it is now believed she is set to frustrate the First Minister further by calling on her to prove her claim that she has a “cast iron” mandate for a new vote at the next Scottish elections in 2021.

 

 http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/780268/theresa-may-scotland-independence-referendum-six-years-2023-nicola-sturgeon

[overherebc]

Dear Nicola, sit doon an' haud yir wheesht.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

And if you believe this which sounds fair to me, Scotland can have their say again then which is much earlier than a generation.

 

After the Prime Minister announced that “now is not the time” for a second independence vote earlier on Thursday, it is now believed she is set to frustrate the First Minister further by calling on her to prove her claim that she has a “cast iron” mandate for a new vote at the next Scottish elections in 2021.

 

 http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/780268/theresa-may-scotland-independence-referendum-six-years-2023-nicola-sturgeon

Dont you think T May has promoted the SNPs independence propaganda. At every opportunity the PM has dismissed the Scottish Parliament re-enforcing the perception of political injustice by Scottish nationalists.

T.May declares the time is not right, but what will be the PM response if a formal request is made.

When T.May was asked when would be the correct time , her response of Now is not the right time is unconvincing

[Laughing Gravy]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

Dont you think T May has promoted the SNPs independence propaganda. At every opportunity the PM has dismissed the Scottish Parliament re-enforcing the perception of political injustice by Scottish nationalists.

T.May declares the time is not right, but what will be the PM response if a formal request is made.

When T.May was asked when would be the correct time , her response of Now is not the right time is unconvincing

TM has already told her formally told her and it makes economic sense whilst dealing with the Brexit negotiations. Once again I am not against Scotland's independence if that is what they want but as I said in a previous post it wasn't long ago and Salmond clearly said it would not happen again in a generation. I wonder if he will vote no then.

 

Mrs May infuriated the First Minister by formally rejecting her demand for a referendum between autumn 2018 and spring 2019, saying “now is not the time” for a vote on the future of the Union. 

 

 

The Prime Minister will not begin talks on a referendum until Brexit has had time to bed in - likely to be a period of two years. It could then take another 18 months to complete the formalities needed for the referendum to take place, pushing it back as far as 2023.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/16/theresa-may-tells-nicola-sturgeon-no-new-scottish-independence/

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

So the SNP's bizarre & sadistic mindset is to interfere with Brexit negotiations without knowing the full facts? It's political spite as the SNP dispise the Tories, nothing more nothing less.

Prior to the commencement of the Brexit negotiations, the PM assured the devolved parliaments that they would be kept fully involved in the process. The Scottish government presented the PM with a white paper outlining their requirements for a Scottish resolution. TM did not even acknowledge it, and has subsequently shown no indication of any intent to involve either Scotland, Wales or NI in the process. Of course, how can you discuss something that you haven't put to paper or even devised - her problem, not ours.

 

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

So Scotland doesn't trust the Tories? What's new there, time to move on from the Thatcher bashing years.

Are you really so unaware of just how incredibly, embarrassingly bad the uk as a country has become, and how incredibly unfair our systems are? I posted twice yesterday a damning indictment of the inequalities that are literally killing people, and not one person has commented (well, one idiot did with an idiot comment). This is not some long held grudge against some long dead harriden. This is a reaction against the nauseating indifference of the UK government and the sickening inequalities in our country, which are growing at an alarming rate and that nobody south of the border seems to be too concerned about. If you are happy to live in a country like that, so be it - it is your choice. We have an opportunity to break free from that and create something many times better. I want to take it.

 

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

No plans for Brexit, which part of unknown territory do many still not grasp?

I see that you have descended into the sneering mode too. Oh well...

So you are telling me that the best minds in the country are not capable of forging a plan for transition? Well, actually, no need to tell me - that is evident. I find it astonishing, however, that foresight is not a prized quality for our leaders.

 

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

As for economic assessment, check out the Leave EU & other Vote to leave sources some of the economic assessments are available, there was enough media trash about the £350 a week for the NHS for a start so info is there.

Brexit: David Davis admits Government has done no economic assessment of the UK crashing out of EU without deal

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

And if you believe this which sounds fair to me, Scotland can have their say again then which is much earlier than a generation.

 

After the Prime Minister announced that “now is not the time” for a second independence vote earlier on Thursday, it is now believed she is set to frustrate the First Minister further by calling on her to prove her claim that she has a “cast iron” mandate for a new vote at the next Scottish elections in 2021.

 

 http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/780268/theresa-may-scotland-independence-referendum-six-years-2023-nicola-sturgeon

Pretty poor showing by TM - do they not do media training in No. 10? Five times she was asked when would be the right time and five times she replied 'now is not the time'. Did nobody in No10 anticipate this question coming up? Well, looking at how amateurish they have been on just about every front this week, I am happy to accept that they didn't think of that one either.

[rockingrobin]

14 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

TM has already told her formally told her and it makes economic sense whilst dealing with the Brexit negotiations. Once again I am not against Scotland's independence if that is what they want but as I said in a previous post it wasn't long ago and Salmond clearly said it would not happen again in a generation. I wonder if he will vote no then.

 

Mrs May infuriated the First Minister by formally rejecting her demand for a referendum between autumn 2018 and spring 2019, saying “now is not the time” for a vote on the future of the Union. 

 

 

The Prime Minister will not begin talks on a referendum until Brexit has had time to bed in - likely to be a period of two years. It could then take another 18 months to complete the formalities needed for the referendum to take place, pushing it back as far as 2023.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/16/theresa-may-tells-nicola-sturgeon-no-new-scottish-independence/

As a request has not been made , T.May cant formally reject it , however the PM stated her intention and reasons , I suspect in an attempt to prevent a request .