SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[aright]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Sounds like a fair, equitable, and progressive plan to restore what rightfully belongs to the nation.

A week ago the Prime Minister said "Capitalism is the greatest engine of prosperity known to man" which I think you might disagree with..........socialism will provide us with all our needs. Perhaps we should compare successful socialist and capitalist countries. I will let you go first you name 5 socialist then I will name 5 capitalist countries. We have experienced almost a decade of lost growth as a result of the last socialist??? government. It took our economy until 2015 (almost 8 years) after the financial crisis just to return to its pre-crash size.   Imagine a world without the economic growth capitalism brings. Incomes fall, investment dries up, debts are harder to pay, pension funds stagnate, and social mobility grinds to a halt. People on the far right of politics pick on minorities and our hard left representatives Corbyn and McDonnell pursue class warfare and  easily solve problems with the Magic money Tree.

Welcome to the world of new Socialism.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, adammike said:

First loco Had its maiden trip today from Bristol,something broke  and there was a 40 minute delay at the start and then the airco flooded some seats,lots of people had to stand and sweat without the air-conditioning. The transport minister was on board. Who they gonna blame when they actually leave the EU? 

In October? OK, tell me they don't have windows!

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, aright said:

 warfare and  easily solve problems with the Magic money Tree.

Welcome to the world of new Socialism.

No capital in money! Jesting.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

A week ago the Prime Minister said "Capitalism is the greatest engine of prosperity known to man" which I think you might disagree with..........socialism will provide us with all our needs. Perhaps we should compare successful socialist and capitalist countries. I will let you go first you name 5 socialist then I will name 5 capitalist countries. We have experienced almost a decade of lost growth as a result of the last socialist??? government. It took our economy until 2015 (almost 8 years) after the financial crisis just to return to its pre-crash size.   Imagine a world without the economic growth capitalism brings. Incomes fall, investment dries up, debts are harder to pay, pension funds stagnate, and social mobility grinds to a halt. People on the far right of politics pick on minorities and our hard left representatives Corbyn and McDonnell pursue class warfare and  easily solve problems with the Magic money Tree.

Welcome to the world of new Socialism.

No, I don't.  Trade is good. Profit motive is the means by which we can prosper.

 

You need to distinguish between trade and Capitalism, and then again between Capitalism and the utterly shambolic version of it we have today, which in fact is merely socialism for the already obscenely wealthy.

Edited October 16, 2017 by mommysboy

[aright]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

No, I don't.  Trade is good. Profit motive is the means by which we can prosper.

 

You need to distinguish between trade and Capitalism, and then again between Capitalism and the utterly shambolic version of it we have today, which in fact is merely socialism for the already obscenely wealthy.

Sorry! I misinterpreted what you said. 

[mommysboy]

Just now, aright said:

Sorry! I misinterpreted what you said. 

Although I would undoubtedly vote for Labour, all the more so because it has Corbyn, who appears to be head and shoulders above all comers, I am actually not opposed to a good Tory government.  We simply have the worst government ever I have ever known.  it's a disaster.

[aright]

"head and shoulders above all comers"

In what respects?

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

"head and shoulders above all comers"

In what respects?

 

The ability to make fabulous promises which will be funded by the equally fabulous money tree.

[George Feedback]

The EU's failure to make any attempt to negotiate shows how essential it is to get out of this mess now. Trade between the UK and EU is fundamental to the economy of the EU,  just look at the trade figures. The UK can look to the world again, not continue to give huge amounts of money to a failed, misguided ideology.

The bureaucratic leadership's myopic obsession of expansionism and the end of nationalism in favour of a Super State run by appointed rather than elected officials will be its downfall,  likely precipitated by the crash of the Euro (due to the southern states being bankrupt, and the lack of contributing  countries old and new).

 

Deal or no deal, out.

 

[hawker9000]

54 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

No, I don't.  Trade is good. Profit motive is the means by which we can prosper.

 

You need to distinguish between trade and Capitalism, and then again between Capitalism and the utterly shambolic version of it we have today, which in fact is merely socialism for the already obscenely wealthy.

"...merely socialism for the already obscenely wealthy."

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Right out of that tired old socialist envy-driven script.  Here are 35 people who WEREN'T "already" wealthy... 

https://thoughtcatalog.com/rachel-hodin/2013/10/35-famous-people-who-were-painfully-rejected-before-making-it-big/

 

Or by "today", do you mean since yesterday?  LOL

 

 

(The article is about being rejected before being a big success. I'm not concerned about the rejections, just that they certainly didn't start out at the top of the pecking order.)

 

[adammike]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

In October? OK, tell me they don't have windows!

Record heat recorded here in the Netherlands for 16 October, high temperatures in parts of the UK.modern trains don't have windows that open because it plays havoc with air-conditioning. 

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

On 15/10/2017 at 10:03 AM, Crossy said:

I supported "remain" (couldn't vote, too long out of the UK) mainly in the "better the devil you know" camp.

 

The referendum was poorly organised, incompetently even. In reality it was too close to call but the winning line of effectively "50% plus 1 vote" was just plain wrong.

 

It would have been far better to set a winning post of, say, 60% of votes cast, at least then it would have been a decent majority either way.

 

But, we are where we are, hopefully it will all turn out OK.

 

No question of "turning it around".

Outside we can trade where we want without interference from the greedy bureaucrats trying to prop up a ridiculous ideal with 26 out of 27 states on the take and many bankrupt already.

Will the Germans fund all this alone without control?

The EU needs to trade with the UK (check the trade figures), and their main worry is where will the money we pay in come from in the future.

But, they will not make realistic proposals in the "negotiations" for fear the EU will disintegrate if you UK isn't punished.

A demand for huge "reparations" is tantamount to the treaty of Versailles!

Fat chance!

A trade war could cost a million jobs, and most will be in the main exporting countries of the EU, but the EU dictators don't care about people.

The UK does and that's why we voted O.U.T. by a huge majority than in any previous parliamentary election terms.

 

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

2 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The UK does and that's why we voted O.U.T. by a huge majority than in any previous parliamentary election terms.

51.9% vs 48.1% is hardly a "huge majority", more of a stagger over the line, but I do agree with much of what you say.

 

The tactics in use by the EU (non) "negotiators" do seem to reflect a certain worry even panic that a significant income stream is going to dry up.

 

[hawker9000]

"The referendum was poorly organised, incompetently even. In reality it was too close to call but the winning line of effectively "50% plus 1 vote" was just plain wrong. "

 

Of course it was, because you disagreed with the outcome.  'Sounding just like the petulant losers on the other side of the pond ever since last November.   Yeah, cry us a river.

 

 

[sirineou]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

You said: 

 

IMO though demographics have a part to play, if a new referendum took place it will fail to produce a "leave" result simply because people are more educated on the subject  now.

 

You used the Ed word first. I'm personally sick of seeing it associated with this topic.

By saying this you infer that leave voters were uneducated. As a leaver, I don't appreciate that.

If you pass by a car wreck can you be sure just by looking who's fault it was?

 

Being more educated on a subject does not mean you were uneducated before, it simply means you were less educated, and now you are more.

Education is a lifelong process .

I think you would be disingenuous if you said that you don't know  more about the subject now, than you knew before.

Unless  of course, you have a learning disability, or you knew all there was to know.

 

Edited October 16, 2017 by sirineou

[MaeJoMTB]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

I think you would be disingenuous if you said that you don't know  more about the subject now, than you knew before.

Unless  of course, you have a learning disability, or you knew all there was to know.

 

Stupid, can't be fixed.

Most of the world learn nothing new after they become adults.

[taipeir]

Record heat recorded here in the Netherlands for 16 October, high temperatures in parts of the UK.modern trains don't have windows that open because it plays havoc with air-conditioning. 

That may or may not be true.

It doesn't mean you couldn't design a train that windows could open and operate AC intelligently . That would be smarter.

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[taipeir]

The EU's failure to make any attempt to negotiate shows how essential it is to get out of this mess now. Trade between the UK and EU is fundamental to the economy of the EU,  just look at the trade figures. The UK can look to the world again, not continue to give huge amounts of money to a failed, misguided ideology. The bureaucratic leadership's myopic obsession of expansionism and the end of nationalism in favour of a Super State run by appointed rather than elected officials will be its downfall,  likely precipitated by the crash of the Euro (due to the southern states being bankrupt, and the lack of contributing  countries old and new).

 

Deal or no deal, out.

 

 

Total fantasy. Willful misdirection from the shambles of the weak May government .

 

The UK government needs to pay up monies owed and deal with the UK/Irish border and citizens rights. They are core issues eventl for the UK side.

 

Tories are busy fighting each other in the newspapers not negotiating.

 

 

Leader of the Leave campaign....

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vote-leave-brexit-chief-dominic-cummings-disaster-eu-european-union-theresa-may-david-davis-a8002426.html

 

'

The so-called brains behind Brexit who called Brexit Secretary David Davis “thick as mince” has taken a new stab at the Government for its alleged failings in leaving the EU.

 

Dominic Cummings told Prospect that Theresa May and Mr Davis "have provided a case study of grotesque uselessness" in the way they are dealing with the Brexit process.

 

The mastermind behind Vote Leave added that negotiations were in a "dire state" and the UK is close to messing up the talks completely. '

 

 

 

 

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[taipeir]

The days of empire are long long gone.

You think the EU is difficult to negotiate with when they are still European partners on many projects such as Airbus?

 

Blows a big gaping hole in the Brexit fantasy .

 

 

 

 

Mr Cumming’s gloomy outlook also comes shortly after US President Donald Trump slapped 300 per cent tariffs on Irish-Canadian Bombardier planes, attempting to eliminate competition for US-based Boeing. The controversy has, according to some analysts, given the UK a hint of the nature of post-Brexit trade deals.

 

 

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[abrahamzvi]

On 10/15/2017 at 3:46 PM, Surasak said:

Voted in by the eu parliament, NOT by the general public!

And who voted for the European Parliament? By your logic, Mrs May is not an elected, democratic PM.

 

On 10/15/2017 at 3:51 PM, Surasak said:

Maybe so,but 21 miles of sea separates us from the mainland of europe.

And how far is it to the USA?

[baansgr]

On 15/10/2017 at 12:11 PM, stephenterry said:

These are the rounded figures, some in % terms. The total electoral role: 46,500,000. 

Total turnout 33,500,000 (72%)

 

Leavers          17,400,000 (37%)

Remainers     16,100,000 (35%)

Non-voters     13,000,000 (28%)

 

Total                46,500,000 (100%)

 

IMO, 37% of the total electoral role is not a majority or a blueprint for the Government to announce it is the 'will of the people' that we must enforce Brexit, because that is statistically incorrect. It is the will of those that voted to leave, but not the majority of the electorate. 

This ridiculous argument has been debated a thousand times and you really need to understand how democracy works. Bit like Tony Blair getting rid of double jeopardy, if its the not outcome you like lets try try and try again till we get what we want.....thats facism buddy, maybe now you will understand why people voted to leave

[whatsupdoc]

Just another quote from the Guardian today:

 

"Britain is seeking a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU that involves leaving the single market and the customs’ union but replicates as closely as possible the current system under which there are no tariffs between the UK and the other 27 member states.

But the Resolution Foundation and the university’s UK trade policy observatory examined the consequences of the UK exiting without a deal and imposing the same tariffs on EU goods as it does on imports from the rest of the world.

It said tariffs on dairy products would increase by 45%, those on meat products by 37% and those on clothing, footwear, drink and tobacco by 10%."

 

Will be dismissed though by the pro-Brexit people as 'project fear', who needs experts anyway?

The line that Britain is seeking to leave the single market but wants to stay close to the system order under which there are no tariffs makes me doubt the sense of reality in the pro-Brexit camp.

[shanesox]

Just another quote from the Guardian today:
 

"Britain is seeking a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU that involves leaving the single market and the customs’ union but replicates as closely as possible the current system under which there are no tariffs between the UK and the other 27 member states.

But the Resolution Foundation and the university’s UK trade policy observatory examined the consequences of the UK exiting without a deal and imposing the same tariffs on EU goods as it does on imports from the rest of the world.

It said tariffs on dairy products would increase by 45%, those on meat products by 37% and those on clothing, footwear, drink and tobacco by 10%."

 

Will be dismissed though by the pro-Brexit people as 'project fear', who needs experts anyway?

The line that Britain is seeking to leave the single market but wants to stay close to the system order under which there are no tariffs makes me doubt the sense of reality in the pro-Brexit camp.

Quoting the Guardian and the sources of info it uses isnt really serious when it comes to this issue! The rag has been completely unbalanced since before the referendum !


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[whatsupdoc]

6 minutes ago, shanesox said:

Quoting the Guardian and the sources of info it uses isnt really serious when it comes to this issue! The rag has been completely unbalanced since before the referendum !


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The dismissal didn't take long 

[taipeir]

Of course the EU has said clearly many times already.

You can't enjoy the benefits of the single market while not being part of the single market and confirming to the conditions attached to that.

You just can't wish that away.

There is an option called the EFTA as mentioned earlier (Norway, Switzerland etc) but you need to agree to certain conditions. Some measure of compromise .

This would be the sensible route rather than the no deal Brexit waffle.



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[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Just another quote from the Guardian today:

 

"Britain is seeking a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU that involves leaving the single market and the customs’ union but replicates as closely as possible the current system under which there are no tariffs between the UK and the other 27 member states.

But the Resolution Foundation and the university’s UK trade policy observatory examined the consequences of the UK exiting without a deal and imposing the same tariffs on EU goods as it does on imports from the rest of the world.

It said tariffs on dairy products would increase by 45%, those on meat products by 37% and those on clothing, footwear, drink and tobacco by 10%."

 

Will be dismissed though by the pro-Brexit people as 'project fear', who needs experts anyway?

The line that Britain is seeking to leave the single market but wants to stay close to the system order under which there are no tariffs makes me doubt the sense of reality in the pro-Brexit camp.

Gosh the Guardian has another reader ,are you contributing to its fund to keep it going?

[whatsupdoc]

30 minutes ago, taipeir said:

Of course the EU has said clearly many times already.

You can't enjoy the benefits of the single market while not being part of the single market and confirming to the conditions attached to that.

You just can't wish that away.

There is an option called the EFTA as mentioned earlier (Norway, Switzerland etc) but you need to agree to certain conditions. Some measure of compromise .

This would be the sensible route rather than the no deal Brexit waffle.



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Fully agree, but the "Norway" route means accepting freedom of movement and contributing to the EU budget so to the Leavers that is a non-starter.

Really not clear what the UK actually wants. And it makes it near impossible for the EU to negotiate anything, which is why the UK needs to clarify its position first. Tick, tock.....

[MaeJoMTB]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Just another quote from the Guardian today:

 

"Britain is seeking a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU that involves leaving the single market and the customs’ union but replicates as closely as possible the current system under which there are no tariffs between the UK and the other 27 member states.

But the Resolution Foundation and the university’s UK trade policy observatory examined the consequences of the UK exiting without a deal and imposing the same tariffs on EU goods as it does on imports from the rest of the world.

It said tariffs on dairy products would increase by 45%, those on meat products by 37% and those on clothing, footwear, drink and tobacco by 10%."

 

Will be dismissed though by the pro-Brexit people as 'project fear', who needs experts anyway?

The line that Britain is seeking to leave the single market but wants to stay close to the system order under which there are no tariffs makes me doubt the sense of reality in the pro-Brexit camp.

Who needs the EU or anything coming from it. The Germans can keep their cars and close their factories.

China makes everything these days and I'm betting it will be happy to sell direct to the UK, cheaper than via the current rebranding fraud in the EU countries.

Clothing/footwear made in the EU? You're having a laugh, that comes from China/India/Vietnam.

What EU country grows tobacco?

 

Sink the ferries, close the tunnel, tell them to do one ...... job done.

Edited October 17, 2017 by MaeJoMTB

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, taipeir said:

That may or may not be true.

It doesn't mean you couldn't design a train that windows could open and operate AC intelligently . That would be smarter.

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Just like on an aeroplane?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, taipeir said:

The days of empire are long long gone.

You think the EU is difficult to negotiate with when they are still European partners on many projects such as Airbus?

 

Blows a big gaping hole in the Brexit fantasy .

 

 

 

 

Mr Cumming’s gloomy outlook also comes shortly after US President Donald Trump slapped 300 per cent tariffs on Irish-Canadian Bombardier planes, attempting to eliminate competition for US-based Boeing. The controversy has, according to some analysts, given the UK a hint of the nature of post-Brexit trade deals.

 

 

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I see AirBus industry is to take a majority share of Bombardier's C class program thereby saving 4,000 jobs in Belfast (assuming single market and tariff free area) and final assembly for aircraft sold in the USA at their American plant. Good eh?!!!

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-41646795

Edited October 17, 2017 by Grouse