Put your cards on the table, EU makes last Brexit call to Britain

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

What is it with Brexiteers that they complain about the EU making it difficult for the UK to leave???

I think you will find that it is nothing to do with Brexiters and all to do with remainers.

 

Most Brexiters will tell you '' Leave means Leave '' as per Para 3 of Article 50.

 

29 March 2019 WTO rules apply. Remainers and the EU / Barnier are not going to be very happy with that line, it also means no divorce payment. Shucks, what a kick in the nads for the EU.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

I think you will find that it is nothing to do with Brexiters and all to do with remainers.

 

Most Brexiters will tell you '' Leave means Leave '' as per Para 3 of Article 50.

 

29 March 2019 WTO rules apply. Remainers and the EU / Barnier are not going to be very happy with that line, it also means no divorce payment. Shucks, what a kick in the nads for the EU.

Again, blaming Brexit failures on Remain supporters.

 

That drip will turn into a torrent.

[bristolboy]

48 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Now why would that be ?

 

Would it be because the EU / Barnier have stated that that a 3rd Country cannot supply Services to the EU ?

 

Well, let me debunk that little myth for all the remainers.

 

US, who are not a member of the EU, Trade in Services 2016.

 

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

 

Although I will concede that the UK is far too reliant on '' Services '' and needs to start '' Making '' the majority of stuff that we currently import at home for the UK market.

 

Remind me again of ANY major economy that is a NET importer that is actually doing well for itself and is not up to it's neck in debt ?

So you believe that if all the major economies here were net exporters, they would all be doing well. And who would they be exporting to? The Martians? The idea that running a trade deficit is a sign of weakness is, shall we say, uninformed at best?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

27 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

What is it with Brexiteers that they complain about the EU making it difficult for the UK to leave??? You pay your dues and just leave. No deal, it is easy.

But if you want cake and cherries, yes then it is a different matter. In that case EU rules still apply and the EU holds all the cards. Actually, also easy but you just have to accept what the EU is willing to offer.

It only gets difficult if you do not know what you actually want from the EU, but you cannot blame the EU for that.

I agree that the UK government are responsible for their share of the blame, and I do not think that all the blame lies with the EU, but they do shoulder some of the responsibility for the lack of progress.

 

The problem with the UK government is, as The Renegade is continually pointing out, that they are lead by a Prime Minister that is a remainer at heart, and she has lost sight  of what she is supposed to be doing, while trying to appease everyone.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I agree that the UK government are responsible for their share of the blame, and I do not think that all the blame lies with the EU, but they do shoulder some of the responsibility for the lack of progress.

 

The problem with the UK government is, as The Renegade is continually pointing out, that they are lead by a Prime Minister that is a remainer at heart, and she has lost sight  of what she is supposed to be doing, while trying to appease everyone.

She’s ‘lost sight of what she’s supposed to be doing’?!

 

As PM Brexit is only one of the things ‘she’s supposed to be doing’.

 

Perhaps it’s a clear view of all the other things that is causing a problem?

 

Whatever the problem is, Brexit problems belong to those who voted for it. - Nothing to do with Remain.

[tebee]

50 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Now why would that be ?

 

Would it be because the EU / Barnier have stated that that a 3rd Country cannot supply Services to the EU ?

 

Well, let me debunk that little myth for all the remainers.

 

US, who are not a member of the EU, Trade in Services 2016.

 

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/europe/european-union

 

Although I will concede that the UK is far too reliant on '' Services '' and needs to start '' Making '' the majority of stuff that we currently import at home for the UK market.

 

Remind me again of ANY major economy that is a NET importer that is actually doing well for itself and is not up to it's neck in debt ?

I didn't say 3rd counties can't supply services.

 

It just isn't as easy.

 

It's the single market in fact that facilitates trans-transborder services.

 

Mutual recognition of regulatory authorities and professional qualifications together with a mutually recognised   transnational court system     are what enables  frictionless services trade in the single market. 

 

Without it firms have to register in each country they trade in and professionals have to register with their governing body in that country. Financial Services are even more complicated - you not only have to prove competence, but set up some sort of professional guarantee that is enforceable    in that country. Without this what is to stop me offering a high interest investment account in one country,  but  in fact putting the clients money into Mrs Tebee's designer handbags inc. ? If I am selling from another country outside their jurisdiction it's much harder to chase me through that counties courts.   

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the services/manufacturing split.   Often what used to be manufacturing is now classed as services because of the way it is sold. Software is one example, another surprising one is Rolls-Royce aero engines. These are not sold anymore, but leased with a maintenance contract so count as a service. The fact that we are in the EU means that the UK certification of these is recognised throughout the EU  and beyond through mutual recognition. The engineers that perform the maintenance are also certified throughout Europe  and can travel to perform their duties through FOM.

 

Post brexit we either need to set up our own certifying authorities and then arrange mutual recognition with everybody else's  or pay the EU to use theirs.

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I agree that the UK government are responsible for their share of the blame, and I do not think that all the blame lies with the EU, but they do shoulder some of the responsibility for the lack of progress.

 

The problem with the UK government is, as The Renegade is continually pointing out, that they are lead by a Prime Minister that is a remainer at heart, and she has lost sight  of what she is supposed to be doing, while trying to appease everyone.

The problem for the government is there is no clear good Brexit  - only an array of options which are all bad in some respect . More and more time is being wasted trying to find a different option which isn't as bad as the ones currently on offer.

 

But we have got to the point were there just isn't time any more. We need to pick one and stick with it or call the whole thing off.

 

But the government is paralyzed by indecision.

 

So maybe  we'll just end out crashing out with no deal.

 

But the bad side of doing that is going to become more obvious every day that goes by, as more firms decide to leave the sinking ship.

 

Will public support for brexit survive that ?

 

or will the whole project just get abandoned  or kicked down the road for another X years ?

[candide]

I often read critics of the EU, suggesting than the EU negotiators were not good at negotiating trade agreements that are advantageous for member states, and that UK alone would be able to get better deals. Could it be that it is not the case?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Whatever the problem is, Brexit problems belong to those who voted for it. - Nothing to do with Remain.

A rather strange and illogical comment, you seem to be saying the exact opposite to every other remainer on here.

 

They have all been crying that Brexit and its resulting implications, will affect everyone in the UK, or have you heard that the 16.1 million that voted to remain in the EU will be allowed to do so, after the UK leaves.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve been a member of a plotical party all my adult life and I have worked, either paid or as a volunteer on local and national elections, party conferences, candidate proposals and selections.

 

Your view is simplistic, there are many ways to effect change in a democracy.

 

If you believe asking where the government’s negotiating position is, or pointing out that Brexit is an utter shambles is ‘dishing it out’.... stay out of politics.

 

quote "Your view is simplistic, there are many ways to effect change in a democracy."

 

Would you care to name some that worked please.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

A rather strange and illogical comment, you seem to be saying the exact opposite to every other remainer on here.

 

They have all been crying that Brexit and its resulting implications, will affect everyone in the UK, or have you heard that the 16.1 million that voted to remain in the EU will be allowed to do so, after the UK leaves.

When did I say Brexit will not effect everyone?

 

I did not.

 

Rather when it does, we’ll know exactly who to blame.

[Chomper Higgot]

49 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

quote "Your view is simplistic, there are many ways to effect change in a democracy."

 

Would you care to name some that worked please.

The suffragette movement.

 

The civil rights movement 

 

The gay rights movement

 

Labour unions, workers rights, work place safety etc

 

The protests against Thatcher’s poll tax.

 

Quite a few pamphlets and books that changed society

 

The TV play  ‘Cathy Come Home’.

 

Etc 

 

[edited with pre-emptive anti pedant correction]

Edited July 4, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[aright]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I think we have reached a near consensus in the past that the EU has issues that must be tackled - in fact, there are few who would argue against that. What I believe, however, is that Brexit is not the correct response to those issues, and that we will lose much more than we will gain.

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

If an answer is forthcoming, it will be an extremely interesting answer ?

 

The 4 sacrosanct EU pillars, that are non-negotiable, leave only one option of change available to the EU.

 

More EU ??

 

The very thing that is going to tear the EU apart.

Edited July 4, 2018 by The Renegade

[billd766]

47 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The suffragette movement.

 

The civil rights movement 

 

The gay rights movement

 

Labour unions, workers rights, work place safety etc

 

The protests against Thatcher’s poll tax.

 

Quite a few pamphlets and books that changed society

 

The TV play  ‘Cathy Come Home’.

 

Etc 

 

[edited with pre-emptive anti pedant correction]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette

 

The suffagette movement started in 1867 and only in 1918 were some women allowed to vote ( they had to be over 30 and a property owner) to do so. That took over 50 years. Should I mention about the arson, bombing and grafitti attacks? It is on Wikipedia if you want to look it up.

 

http://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/civil-rights-uk.html

 

The civil rights movement in the UK started back in 1833 when slavery was abolished and by 1892 the first Indian MP was elected. That movement is till slowly going along except that nowadays many native Brits are badly treated by the courts for sticking up for themselves,

 

The Labour union movement started back in Tolpuddle (near where I was born) back in the early 1800s. It was a great idea (though not if you were a landowner back then). Sadly back in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s unions grew so powerful that they believed that they should run the country and NOT the people or the government,

Ted Robinson, who was a union convener aat Solihull was a prime leader in the destruction of the British car industry, Arthur Scargill did the same for the coal mining industry, The re was a winter of discontent in 1978/79.

 

This makes interesting reading  https://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-winter-of-discontent

 

Still an 'unofficial' strike by early October, the Transport and General Workers Union (TGWU), fearing the level of rank and file control over the day to day running of the strike, decided to support it on October 5. The workers' demands of a 25% pay increase and 35 hour week were made official and negotiations with Ford commenced. After several weeks the TGWU agreed on a 17% pay increase, the idea of a shortening of hours having been completely dropped, and urged the strikers to return to work on November 22, which they did.

 

Trash was not collected, people remained unburied etc.

 

Now the pendulum has swung too far the other way so the employers now have the upper hand.

 

I will leave you to post the rest as it has taken me about 20 minutes to research and assemble this and it time for my Granddad afternoon nap.

 

Have a great day.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette

 

The suffagette movement started in 1867 and only in 1918 were some women allowed to vote ( they had to be over 30 and a property owner) to do so. That took over 50 years. Should I mention about the arson, bombing and grafitti attacks? It is on Wikipedia if you want to look it up.

 

http://www.civilrightsmovement.co.uk/civil-rights-uk.html

 

The civil rights movement in the UK started back in 1833 when slavery was abolished and by 1892 the first Indian MP was elected. That movement is till slowly going along except that nowadays many native Brits are badly treated by the courts for sticking up for themselves,

 

The Labour union movement started back in Tolpuddle (near where I was born) back in the early 1800s. It was a great idea (though not if you were a landowner back then). Sadly back in the 1960s, 70s, 80s and 90s unions grew so powerful that they believed that they should run the country and NOT the people or the government,

Ted Robinson, who was a union convener aat Solihull was a prime leader in the destruction of the British car industry, Arthur Scargill did the same for the coal mining industry, The re was a winter of discontent in 1978/79.

 

This makes interesting reading  https://libcom.org/history/1978-1979-winter-of-discontent

 

Still an 'unofficial' strike by early October, the Transport and General Workers Union (TGWU), fearing the level of rank and file control over the day to day running of the strike, decided to support it on October 5. The workers' demands of a 25% pay increase and 35 hour week were made official and negotiations with Ford commenced. After several weeks the TGWU agreed on a 17% pay increase, the idea of a shortening of hours having been completely dropped, and urged the strikers to return to work on November 22, which they did.

 

Trash was not collected, people remained unburied etc.

 

Now the pendulum has swung too far the other way so the employers now have the upper hand.

 

I will leave you to post the rest as it has taken me about 20 minutes to research and assemble this and it time for my Granddad afternoon nap.

 

Have a great day.

 

You seem to have lost the plot. 

 

The suffragette movement did result in women gaining the vote.

The civil rights movement did result in the extension of equal rights.

The Labour unions did gain workers rights and improvements in work place safety. (Nice detour rant of yours that did not address the point).

The Gay rights movement, you didn't even go there.t

The poll tax demonstrations brought an end to Thatcher's poll tax and hastened the fall of Thatcher herself.

 

Pamphlets and books? etc?

 

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

20 minutes ago, aright said:

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

Well, given that that there seem to be multiple changing reasons that Brexiteers cite for the referendum tilting being in their favour, it would be a brave man who would be willing to state a broad brush complaint that addressed the concerns of ever sceptic. But then again, why would I be the one to pick up the challenge of resolving your issues? I was and remain happy with what we have in terms of our EU arrangement. What you (the collective you) have failed to do for over 2 years now is to convince me or the rest of the remainers why the path you are forcing us to take is the best one.

[aright]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I think we have reached a near consensus in the past that the EU has issues that must be tackled - in fact, there are few who would argue against that. What I believe, however, is that Brexit is not the correct response to those issues, and that we will lose much more than we will gain.

 

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, given that that there seem to be multiple changing reasons that Brexiteers cite for the referendum tilting being in their favour, it would be a brave man who would be willing to state a broad brush complaint that addressed the concerns of ever sceptic. But then again, why would I be the one to pick up the challenge of resolving your issues? I was and remain happy with what we have in terms of our EU arrangement. What you (the collective you) have failed to do for over 2 years now is to convince me or the rest of the remainers why the path you are forcing us to take is the best one.

You are the one agreeing with consensus issues within the EU. My simple request was you address your reform issues explain them and tell us how you would bring about reformation from within the EU. For some reason you don't want to explain and have produced six lines of fudge. This is an exchange of views/ideas forum.

In it, simplest form the question is what do you think? If you don't want to answer the question say so but no more fudge please.

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

 

You are the one agreeing with consensus issues within the EU. My simple request was you address your reform issues explain them and tell us how you would bring about reformation from within the EU. For some reason you don't want to explain and have produced six lines of fudge. This is an exchange of views/ideas forum.

In it, simplest form the question is what do you think? If you don't want to answer the question say so but no more fudge please.

Another self-appointed Grand Inquisitor.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, aright said:

 

You are the one agreeing with consensus issues within the EU. My simple request was you address your reform issues explain them and tell us how you would bring about reformation from within the EU. For some reason you don't want to explain and have produced six lines of fudge. This is an exchange of views/ideas forum.

In it, simplest form the question is what do you think? If you don't want to answer the question say so but no more fudge please.

No - let me remind you what you wrote:

 

1 hour ago, aright said:

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside,

 

You clearly did not ask for my reform issues - you asked to resolve yours and those of all the other sceptics. No fudge from me, mate - merely trying to help you understand your own post.

 

As I made clear, my assessment was that the ship is not sinking; Brexiteers, on the other hand, have forced us to jump overboard without even checking if there  is a liferaft below. But in the interest of sharing views and ideas, here's mine - let's scrap this nonsense before it really is too late, and start to repair some of the damage our country has already sustained.

 

[aright]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No - let me remind you what you wrote:

 

 

You clearly did not ask for my reform issues - you asked to resolve yours and those of all the other sceptics. No fudge from me, mate - merely trying to help you understand your own post.

 

As I made clear, my assessment was that the ship is not sinking; Brexiteers, on the other hand, have forced us to jump overboard without even checking if there  is a liferaft below. But in the interest of sharing views and ideas, here's mine - let's scrap this nonsense before it really is too late, and start to repair some of the damage our country has already sustained.

 

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

I know what I wrote. How do you see "What reforms do you think" out of dance step with "You clearly did not ask for my reform ideas"

I never said the ship was sinking and you are obviously more comfortable criticizing the decision of those people who wanted to leave (their reasons are many and explained on this post) but are reluctant to explain your reform issues and their resolution within the EU.

I will ask you again.

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

I know what I wrote. How do you see "What reforms do you think" out of dance step with "You clearly did not ask for my reform ideas"

I never said the ship was sinking and you are obviously more comfortable criticizing the decision of those people who wanted to leave (their reasons are many and explained on this post) but are reluctant to explain your reform issues and their resolution within the EU.

I will ask you again.

If Brexit isn't the answer what reforms do you think the EU needs to  make to, keep us, and other member states, onside, and how, in practical terms, would you bring about that reformation?

Your honour, he's badgering the witness. 

[The Renegade]

 

 

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Well, given that that there seem to be multiple changing reasons that Brexiteers cite for the referendum tilting being in their favour, it would be a brave man who would be willing to state a broad brush complaint that addressed the concerns of ever sceptic. But then again, why would I be the one to pick up the challenge of resolving your issues? I was and remain happy with what we have in terms of our EU arrangement. What you (the collective you) have failed to do for over 2 years now is to convince me or the rest of the remainers why the path you are forcing us to take is the best one.

 

37 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

No - let me remind you what you wrote:

 

 

You clearly did not ask for my reform issues - you asked to resolve yours and those of all the other sceptics. No fudge from me, mate - merely trying to help you understand your own post.

 

As I made clear, my assessment was that the ship is not sinking; Brexiteers, on the other hand, have forced us to jump overboard without even checking if there  is a liferaft below. But in the interest of sharing views and ideas, here's mine - let's scrap this nonsense before it really is too late, and start to repair some of the damage our country has already sustained.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

If an answer is forthcoming, it will be an extremely interesting answer ?

 

???

 

No answer but a factory sized lump of FUDGE

 

???

[bristolboy]

Just now, The Renegade said:

 

 

 

 

???

 

No answer but a factory sized lump of FUDGE

 

???

Ruam Rudy has repeatedly said he's fundamentally satisfied with things they way they are. And you and aright keep telling him that he's not. Maybe you should take your practice to the psychoanalytic forum instead?

[aright]

6 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I think we have reached a near consensus in the past that the EU has issues that must be tackled - in fact, there are few who would argue against that. What I believe, however, is that Brexit is not the correct response to those issues, and that we will lose much more than we will gain.

 

3 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Ruam Rudy has repeatedly said he's fundamentally satisfied with things they way they are. And you and aright keep telling him that he's not. Maybe you should take your practice to the psychoanalytic forum instead?

Has he? 

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Yes because it's clearly unfair of the EU to insist that with privileges come obligations.  The EU isn't a buffet where you get to pick and choose what you want and not pay for it.

Unfortunately the E.U’s buffet is very expensive, in fact it is not a buffet of choice, except for the Bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

 

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, aright said:

 

Has he? 

"I was and remain happy with what we have in terms of our EU arrangement."

What is there about this statement that strikes you as ambiguous, doc?

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Unfortunately the E.U’s buffet is very expensive, in fact it is not a buffet of choice, except for the Bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

 

And yet Brexiters still want to dine there at a deeply discounted rate.

[aright]

14 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

"I was and remain happy with what we have in terms of our EU arrangement."

What is there about this statement that strikes you as ambiguous, doc?

Its out of kilter with "I think we have reached a near consensus in the past that the EU has issues that must be tackled - in fact there are few who would argue against that."

Split personality?...….maybe.

One thing I do know having read RR's posts he certainly doesn't need you as his defence attorney.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tebee]

So the next little problem with this brexit idea. We are due to leave in 9 months with maybe a 20 month transition period.

 

The government has just announced the the new customs systems that will be needed will take 3-5 years to develop so that large firms can use them and it will be maybe 10 years before they are available to Small to medium sized enterprises.

 

So if we can just manage five years without a manufacturing supply chain and can manage ten years without fresh fruit all will be fine. 
Just think of all the benefits....

 

https://news.sky.com/story/post-brexit-customs-system-could-take-up-to-five-years-government-papers-acknowledge-11425358