Yet more confusion over the removal of Income Certification Letter for British expats

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

And thereby hangs a tale.

Because they are bureaucrats they think we are all stupid. 

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, marcusarelus said:

Somebody at the BE asked them for help eliminating workload of letters. 

Spot on. I'm sure this is the case. The BE auditors wanted to discontinue the letters so embassy staff asked TI to clarify their stance on the letters, which they did. BE then twisted their words to use the excuse that they could no longer issue the letters due to TI's need for verification, which was always the case and were happy with BE's method of verification (examination of documents presented to them).

 

Problem. TI are now aware that the BE have stitched them up as an excuse for an internal cost cutting exercise. Thai Immigration won't forget this and will want their revenge.

 

My prediction is that TI will now use any excuse to reject British expats applications for visa extensions. Be prepared, thanks to the British Embassy, you can expect an extremely rough ride the next time you visit the IO.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

maybe, but nobody cared, the status quo works

Not now it doesn't.

[Jingthing]

Not now it doesn't.

Actually it does. As long as the BE issues the letters they will be accepted for six months after issue. Immigration has always had the right to demand additional proof of the income claim on the letters. It's fair to assume if the BE backed off on their announcement to cancel that their letters would continue to be accepted with the same conditions as in the past, as now, and going forward to six months after they issue their last letter.

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

Just now, Spidey said:

Spot on. I'm sure this is the case. The BE auditors wanted to discontinue the letters so embassy staff asked TI to clarify their stance on the letters, which they did. BE then twisted their words to use the excuse that they could no longer issue the letters due to TI's need for verification, which was always the case and were happy with BE's method of verification (examination of documents presented to them).

Problem. TI are now aware that the BE have stitched them up as an excuse for an internal cost cutting exercise. Thai Immigration won't forget this and will want their revenge.

My prediction is that TI will now use any excuse to reject British expats applications for visa extensions. Be prepared, thanks to the British Embassy, you can expect an extremely rough ride the next time you visit the IO.

Bar-room facts.

[Spidey]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Bar-room facts.

We shall see.

 

Although, I must admit that I've just downed more than my fare share of JDs. ????

Edited October 15, 2018 by Spidey

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time        Abraham Lincoln

On this forum thread the status quo ante crowd do it for themselves. Look Ma! No Hands!

[Spidey]

Just now, SheungWan said:

On this forum thread the status quo ante crowd do it for themselves. Look Ma! No Hands!

There's no fooling an old dog.

[SheungWan]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually it does. As long as the BE issues the letters they will be accepted for six months after issue. Immigration has always had the right to demand additional proof of the income claim on the letters. It's fair to assume if the BE backed off on their announcement to cancel that their letters would continue to be accepted with the same conditions as in the past, as now, and going forward to six months after they issue their last letter.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

No, not really. The same condition would be no verification. Not going back in that box. Delay, postpone, but cannot return.

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

There's no fooling an old dog.

In Thailand?

[The manic]

This and other threads demonstrate why people use visa agents.

[SheungWan]

42 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Because they are bureaucrats they think we are all stupid. 

Is being a bureaucrat a requirement?

[Jingthing]

No, not really. The same condition would be no verification. Not going back in that box. Delay, postpone, but cannot return.

I'm not following your point sorry. I'm in the camp that feels the BE doesn't really need to stop the letters. The Thais are not forcing them to stop.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[HHTel]

BE are the first.

Already been stated by the Canadian Embassy in the last week to at least one person that they will discontinue the letter.

Also stated in an earlier post that the US embassy are not changing their issuance of 'statuary declarations' for the time being until studies are complete.

 

I think it's the thin end of the wedge.  As I've said, until Thai Immigration clarifies the situation then nobody actually knows anything.

 

 

[SheungWan]

Just now, Jingthing said:

I'm not following your point sorry. I'm in the camp that feels the BE doesn't really need to stop the letters. The Thais are not forcing them to stop.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

You are perfectly entitled to keep missing the point. In the meantime I'm going to get ready to go see a movie in the London Film Festival.

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

You are perfectly entitled to keep missing the point. In the meantime I'm going to get ready to go see a movie in the London Film Festival.

I sincerely don't understand your point. Yes, I know what the BE says but I'm inclined to not accept what they say at face value. We already know that the spokesperson for the embassy in the Pattaya interview demonstrated a lack of knowledge and understanding of even existing Thai immigration policies.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, HHTel said:

BE are the first.

Already been stated by the Canadian Embassy in the last week to at least one person that they will discontinue the letter.

Also stated in an earlier post that the US embassy are not changing their issuance of 'statuary declarations' for the time being until studies are complete.

 

I think it's the thin end of the wedge.  As I've said, until Thai Immigration clarifies the situation then nobody actually knows anything.

 

 

All the embassies including the British are still issuing the letters. Thai immigration still accepts (and REQUIRES) the letters from all embassies. Thai immigration has always and still does have the right that they sometimes exercise to demand backup evidence for the claims in the letter. At this point in time -- the status quo stands 100 percent. 

[Luckysilk]

19 minutes ago, HHTel said:

BE are the first.

Already been stated by the Canadian Embassy in the last week to at least one person that they will discontinue the letter.

Also stated in an earlier post that the US embassy are not changing their issuance of 'statuary declarations' for the time being until studies are complete.

 

I think it's the thin end of the wedge.  As I've said, until Thai Immigration clarifies the situation then nobody actually knows anything.

 

 

Wait for Brexit to settle and CANZUK gets into full swing and the Embassies are under one roof. It was reported a few years back but I heard from a friend in Canada it's back on.

 

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, UK will all stop these letters IMO. They don't want the liability.

 

There's an American in a FB group I'm in who's encouraging Americans to send letters to the US Embassy to stop issuing the letters as he's claims the abuse is rampant. 

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, Luckysilk said:

...

 

There's an American in a FB group I'm in who's encouraging Americans to send letters to the US Embassy to stop issuing the letters as he's claims the abuse is rampant. 

Is his name Benedict Arnold? 

Or perhaps it's Snitchy McSnitchface the third. 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Jingthing

[HHTel]

45 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

At this point in time -- the status quo stands 100 percent. 

Of course it does, but for how long?

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

Of course it does, but for how long?

I'm not psychic.

[sambum]

6 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I was under the understanding the British HAD that system, but for reasons unknown to us - Thai immigration indicated that they wanted the Embassy to verify the income.  My guess is that the British were first - which would likely happen if the Thai Immigration was noticing a higher incidence of document fraud from the British expats.

 

 

6 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I was under the understanding the British HAD that system, but for reasons unknown to us - Thai immigration indicated that they wanted the Embassy to verify the income.  My guess is that the British were first - which would likely happen if the Thai Immigration was noticing a higher incidence of document fraud from the British expats.

 

The British Embassy (to my knowledge, (and I have been using the Proof of Income letter for many years) have NEVER had "that system" and to imply that the Brits are more guilty of document fraud than anyone else is to be honest quite insulting, and unfounded claptrap. The main difference between the British system, and anyone else's - for the umpteenth time! -  is that in the British system, the letter that the Embassy provides merely acknowledges the fact that the applicant has given them details/informed them of his/her income, and asks for Thai Immigration to give him/her every assistance in their application. In the American, and Australian system. (and probably most of the others) the applicant HAS TO SIGN THE DOCUMENT, and swear that the details are correct.

 

If the British Embassy adopted the same system as the Americans and Australians, then even if it involved a yearly trip to the Embassy in Bangkok, I am pretty sure that all retirees that met the criteria (with the occasional exception for health reasons etc) would be prepared to make the trip to get their annual extension - the only people who would kick up a fuss about it would be the people who had something to hide i.e. fraudsters, of whom you seem to think the Brits have more than their fair share! 

 

  

Edited October 15, 2018 by sambum

[sambum]

8 hours ago, Expattaff1308 said:

and the BE then advice us to use Bank Statements to prove deposits into our Thai Bank Accounts. If you have read the numerous threads you would have seen that all of us who have contacted our local Immigration Offices to seek this alternative to the Embassy Letter have been met with confusion and a straight NO...Cannot use Bank Statements, Put 400/800k in Bank and get a Bank Letter.

If as you say its not the fault of the Embassy then they need to be negotiating with Immigration to find a successful alternative and not pluck ideas out of the air as they dont seem to understand the needs of Imm by those attempting to gain an extension of stay.

That said it has also been reported that is nothing to do with Immigration but a FCO Audit, where the auditor may have asked if there is an alternative for expats to prove their income and as reported on their website they respond with a Yes - Bank Statements - So the auditor suggests doing away with the Letters.

But as we all know Statements are NOT the alternative being allowed by Immigration.

Now who is to blame for giving poor and false advice to their nationals...Hmmm certainly not the Thais

 

Also a point which for the most part seems to be being disregarded in the posts on here is that while the British Embassy are issuing Proof of Income letters, the income does not have to be deposited in a Thai bank - I would presume that most funds (e.g. Government Pension/Private Pension etc) are paid into a UK bank. 

 

Under the proposed "new" system (due to the British Embassy discontinuing the service) these funds will have to be paid into a Thai bank, and my private pension provider has stated previously that they will only pay my pension into a UK bank. ((I do not know if the British Government will pay my pension direct into a Thai bank)  Therefore, there will be additional costs in transferring the funds from my UK bank to a Thai bank, and bearing in mind that my State Pension is "frozen" anyway (Sorry - different topic!) I feel that I am being "short changed" yet again!

[sambum]

8 hours ago, HHTel said:

Nobody knows whether that was the case.  I'm sure the decision has to come from the UK so it will have been discussed by the Home Office back in London.

Who are a fountain of knowledge regarding Thai Immigration requirements!

[bigginhill]

On 10/13/2018 at 4:29 PM, sirineou said:

You are right about that,

but don't British citizens report income from rentals, copyrights dividend;s etc? Dont British citizens pay taxes for such transactions? I know that in the US if you have a minimum income (which is higher than the income we are claiming to have in Thailand) you have to file a tax return.

And even if there is income the embay can't verify, can't they at least verify the income they could verify? Why penalise everyone because they cant verify some? 

In Italy we have an end of year return where all incomes should be listed, if it isn't listed it isn't taxed and therefore "off the books" and you shouldn't be talking about it, also your properties in Italy are listed on it, as well as your state pension, and I believe a private pension would have to be listed too as it increases income so that maybe you pass a threshold and your other incomes would be taxed. 

I might add that this annual document is the size of a telephone directory of a small town. And I am not joking.

I am British and I used that to support my combination income for the retirement extension. ( by getting the income letter at the BE. 

I doubt taking that copy ( in Italian ) into the immigration offices will get me anywhere.

 

[gk10002000]

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 2:23 AM, rooster59 said:

show a monthly income of 65,000 baht also transferred into a bank account in Thailand.

this just doesn't prove anybody has any legitimate income source!  If the Thais accept something as simple as that, all that shows is that somebody transferred in that money for three months, or maybe in one month but for three months total amount hopefully.  But it can obviously be misused.  A person can simply have money provided to them, transferred in for them, or just use some of their own cash to transfer it in for three months.  They might be spending down some sum of money with no future income available.   This just is not much proof of the intent of the constant and continuing income verification.   Now, how would a new person getting their first visa show 3 months of transfers!  And maybe some people don't want to transfer money in on any regular basis.  I certainly don't.  I will be returning home at least once a year if not twice, then return with about $10,000 USD each time.  maybe use ATM now and then as needed.  I have no plans and certainly no desire to give Thai banks much access to my financial institutions.  Even the ATM account I use is very limited and does not tie to any of my brokerage accounts or anything else.

[bigginhill]

On 10/14/2018 at 2:16 AM, superal said:

What means of money transfer do you use that shows FTT ( the popular Transferwise does not )  and to other readers as well , after 3 months is it a problem sending the 4/800k back to your home country  bank account  ?  because I always use T/W and they are only a one way transaction , UK to Thailand .

With regards to an income based on the rental of your UK home , would a copy of the rental agreement suffice ?

I doubt that the rental agreement would suffice and I add owning a condo in Thailand why can't the 800,000 be  reduced. Can't do that? Then if I rent it and deposit the monthly rent ? I guess that neither but it is income. 

And both of the above mentioned rentals coould have been put on the letter of income for the BE and would have been accepted.

 

[bigginhill]

On 10/14/2018 at 5:38 AM, Spidey said:

What puzzles me is that, as some have mentioned, it's possible to obtain a Non O-A retirement visa at the Thai Embassy in London. The financial requirements are the same and the Thai Embassy requires the same evidence of income as the British Embassy do to issue income letters.

 

The Thai Embassy in London accept this evidence with no further verification, yet the British Embassy are telling us that it won't satisfy Thai Immigration.

 

Methinks somebody is telling porkies...…...and it ain't Thai Immigration.

good point.

[bigginhill]

On 10/14/2018 at 8:22 AM, chris2004 said:

You might own a million +++ house/car but that doesn't provide for your living expenses. I presume the 800k is there to show you can afford to live and not be a burden on Thailand. Shame the Uk doesn't do the same for all our r@pefugees.

Sorry but it does.

If I own a condo I don't pay rent, so I am up at least 20,000 Baht a month, x 12 months 240,000. so in theory I could produce 560,000 deposited. No?

Or I could rent it and have an annual income of that amount.

[superal]

4 hours ago, bigginhill said:

Sorry but it does.

If I own a condo I don't pay rent, so I am up at least 20,000 Baht a month, x 12 months 240,000. so in theory I could produce 560,000 deposited. No?

Or I could rent it and have an annual income of that amount.

Now you are being too sensible , they do not do that here . You could even go further by quoting the value of your condo and that alone would qualify .