Expats in Thailand giving up and moving on

[Hockeybik]

Opinions, thoughts, comments...? Did Big Joke get canned because of this? Will things change? If so, how?

 

https://www.emigrate.co.uk/news/20190401-25244_thailand-immigration-laws-less-and-less-friendly-to-western-expats?platform=hootsuite

[ubonjoe]

Moved to here.

[geoffbezoz]

In my opinion whether it was BJ or mickey mouse getting pushed out, nothing will change for the better. The apparent increase in xenophobia against Farangs in particular has filtered down from people far higher up the sociopolitical arena than Big Joke.  He was just a "first pass policy" tool who could be binned when his purpose was served. I hope there is no 2nd phase which would make BJ seem like a godsend but I am not too hopeful.

[BestB]

Rather strange editorial of you asked me. 

All the silly changes affect those on retirement visa not those on business visa’s.

 

I do not feel attitude towards working foreigners has changed at all. Renewing visa has not changed nor has renewing WP.

 

It sure did not get easier, but did not get harder either.

 

Running biz did hard harder under junta and its never ending hunt for something illegal.

 

Would I leave after 18 years here? Yes I could but not something I want to do or plan to do yet I have thought about it.

[Hockeybik]

8 minutes ago, BestB said:

Rather strange editorial of you asked me. 

All the silly changes affect those on retirement visa not those on business visa’s.

 

I do not feel attitude towards working foreigners has changed at all. Renewing visa has not changed nor has renewing WP.

 

It sure did not get easier, but did not get harder either.

 

Running biz did hard harder under junta and its never ending hunt for something illegal.

 

Would I leave after 18 years here? Yes I could but not something I want to do or plan to do yet I have thought about it.

I agree with you, not much really changed but you must remember that perception is reality. The news and the "perception" lately has been one of "it's way worse than it was" and "it effects everyone". There is no denying that obtaining retirement visas did take an uptick in difficulty with stricter enforcement of proof of finances. 

[Peterw42]

Given that the OP has no real data or numbers, its a little hard to comment. The OP talks about working ex-pats leaving, even though there have been no changes to working Visa's etc. 

Opinions, thoughts, comments are irrelevant without any hard data that shows that people are leaving, tourists are in decline etc.

 

[Hockeybik]

2 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Given that the OP has no real data or numbers, its a little hard to comment. The OP talks about working ex-pats leaving, even though there have been no changes to working Visa's etc. 

Opinions, thoughts, comments are irrelevant without any hard data that shows that people are leaving, tourists are in decline etc.

 

While the article does not name the study it does summarize with these numbers, "...two years ago working expats comprised 42 per cent of respondents. When asked whether they were happier than when they first arrived, some 39 per cent said no, with 44 per cent of the negative responses coming from expats aged under 60 years. The majority quoted financial pressures as the reason for their discomfort, with 66 per cent of all respondents saying they’d thought seriously about moving on. The recent survey shows just 23 per cent are working expats, indicating a majority of expat professionals thinking about leaving have now left." 

 

There may be many flaws in how this data was collected and in the conclusions reached but I stand by the "perception is reality" view. If the news is bad, then it IS bad. Regular TV posters for the most part seem to be on the fully legal side of Thai immigration and do not feel pressures as much or react as much to "news" but, anyone thinking about coming to work or live, may react quite oppositely. 

[BestB]

2 minutes ago, Hockeybik said:

While the article does not name the study it does summarize with these numbers, "...two years ago working expats comprised 42 per cent of respondents. When asked whether they were happier than when they first arrived, some 39 per cent said no, with 44 per cent of the negative responses coming from expats aged under 60 years. The majority quoted financial pressures as the reason for their discomfort, with 66 per cent of all respondents saying they’d thought seriously about moving on. The recent survey shows just 23 per cent are working expats, indicating a majority of expat professionals thinking about leaving have now left." 

 

There may be many flaws in how this data was collected and in the conclusions reached but I stand by the "perception is reality" view. If the news is bad, then it IS bad. Regular TV posters for the most part seem to be on the fully legal side of Thai immigration and do not feel pressures as much or react as much to "news" but, anyone thinking about coming to work or live, may react quite oppositely. 

Also agree with you, many things appear bad and have changed in general but as saying goes grass always looks greener on the other side.

 

other places may look more attractive until you move there and find out there are problems there also. Example , Cambodia looks like an easy choice, cheaper and easier with visa but health and infrastructure is lacking. So one may well be excited about washer visa but then hit the wall with some health issues.

[luckyluke]

54 minutes ago, Hockeybik said:

There is no denying that obtaining retirement visas did take an uptick in difficulty with stricter enforcement of proof of finances. 

 

The Americans, Australians, British may represent the largest part of expats in Thailand, there is still a great number of nationalities who don't encounter any difficulty to obtain a "Retirement Visa". 

 

A L.o.I. is still issued by their embassy/consulate and happily seen at Immigration (practically no work for the officer). 

 

I therefore have some doubt about the fact that some pretend Farangs are targeted. 

 

It it was the case Immigration would have cancel the L.o.I. as possibility to obtain an extension. 

 

15+ years I, and many others, used it, and still do. 

 

It may of course change tomorrow, but why should Immigration do it ( making the life of their officers more difficult). 

 

The theory that Immigration want that everybody use an agent doesn't make any sense to me as well, as long as  they accept a L.o.I..

 

I just read on a Dutch/Flemish forum that Chang Mai Immigration still accepted a combination method from a Dutch, 400000 ThB on a bankbook in Thailand, monthly 1000 Euro (+/-36000 THB) pension income,

confirmed with a L.o.I..

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by luckyluke

[mania]

2 hours ago, Hockeybik said:

Did Big Joke get canned because of this? Will things change? If so, how?

Not a chance

 

As much as Foreigners from the West & Europe like to think they matter they don't matter much in

the overall scheme of things in Thailand ( Rich tourist yes...long term shoestring expats no)

 

If his move had anything to do with immigration at all it was with the weakening of the cheap labor force.

If it was something about his roundups of thousands it was his higher ups were maybe losing their cheap labor/factory workers.

 

But to be honest I do not think Big Jokes move was immigration motivated at all.

 

He made the mistake of saying there was some suspicious voter activity/ possible hacking & it was worth looking into.

That was that & I have not seen a peep about it (voter hacking) since....not even able to find the original blurb

 

 

[quandow]

From the article:  "The new rules are sowing chaos and confusion"

The dust has settled, we've either acclimated or moved on. I know a guy who knows a guy, and that guy says it's business as usual (though he raised his annual rates by ฿500). Yes, we were confused and anxious, but the days of 500+ responses in a 24 hour period about announcements made by immigration (alleged or actual) are done. Life goes on.

[CGW]

Rather than turn it into yet another Thai knocking thread read the facts?

 

I was a working "expat" in Thailand for many years, International companies bring in expats for their expertise and to train the local work force, happens every where in the world, once the local work force is trained and able to take over the reins??? the expat moves on, hopefully to another well paid job, appears to me this is what is happening, there are some very good Thai's in the work place, many have been educated overseas, they are more than competent - in some cases - most are not "moving on" but being moved on, worth remembering that the Japanese have by far the largest percentage of "expats" working in Thailand.

Edited April 14, 2019 by CGW

[elviajero]

The expats with a genuine income or cash in the bank should have no problem with the recent changes.  

[OneMoreFarang]

"giving up"?

Did we all give up when we left our home countries and when we moved to Thailand?

Or did we make a decision that we wanted something different than "home"?

And now, if some people decide that they move again out of Thailand do they "give up"? Or do they decide that now they want to live somewhere else again?

 

Currently I am happy in Thailand and I guess I will live here for at least another 10 years, probably longer.

But with higher age and higher health risk and higher health insurance cost I might consider my options.

[ThaiBunny]

14 minutes ago, elviajero said:

The expats with a genuine income or cash in the bank should have no problem with the recent changes.  

From the narrow financial perspective, no, but from the added administrative hoop(s) to jump through clearly it has annoyed some enough to reconsider their decision to stay

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

From the narrow financial perspective, no, but from the added administrative hoop(s) to jump through clearly it has annoyed some enough to reconsider their decision to stay

If I had 1 baht for every time I've been annoyed by immigration regulation/law or general Thai bureaucracy, I'd have THB 1,000,000,000,000,000,001; but I get over it!

 

"Some" will go because of it, but most will stay.

[dotpoom]

What ever happened to... "Take life as it comes".... This obsession with what other people (Farangs) are doing is getting a bit boring. 

  Why not just do whatever you yourself want to do (possibly even keep it to yourself) and let others worry about themselves?

[3stan]

Yea, transitioning to Vietnam, after 15 years here. Im under 50 and not working. Tired of jumping through hoops and bleeding money on visa runs. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by 3stan

[Jingthing]

From the article:  "The new rules are sowing chaos and confusion"
The dust has settled, we've either acclimated or moved on. I know a guy who knows a guy, and that guy says it's business as usual (though he raised his annual rates by ฿500). Yes, we were confused and anxious, but the days of 500+ responses in a 24 hour period about announcements made by immigration (alleged or actual) are done. Life goes on.

You're totally wrong. The combo method is as messed up as ever. The import rules aren't a piece of cake either. Pensions only? Window of days in the month for import? 800k baht method. Legal consequences of going under during the ten month post seasoning period not announced.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[LawrenceN]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:52 AM, Hockeybik said:

There is no denying that obtaining retirement visas did take an uptick in difficulty with stricter enforcement of proof of finances. 

I'll deny it. 

1. No more scheduling an appointment at the consulate to obtain the bogus income letter.

2. No more attending said appointment and forking over $50/฿1700.

3. Chiang Mai Imm have streamlined their procedures, meaning no more showing up before dawn to get in the queue. No more sitting around ALL day.

4. I print or copy my pension fund statements at home.

5. Stop at a Bangkok Bank for a current statement on the way to Imm. 100 baht there beats 1700 to the consulate.

 

Stricter enforcement? So be it. Keeps the riffraff out.

[Jingjock]

On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 5:53 PM, Peterw42 said:

tourists are in decline etc.

I lived here 9 years, walk along Soi Buakhao tonight (Songkran) and see how many tourists are here, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work that one out, the bars are empty.

[Suradit69]

On April 14, 2019 at 8:35 AM, geoffbezoz said:

In my opinion whether it was BJ or mickey mouse getting pushed out, nothing will change for the better. The apparent increase in xenophobia against Farangs in particular has filtered down from people far higher up the sociopolitical arena than Big Joke.  He was just a "first pass policy" tool who could be binned when his purpose was served. I hope there is no 2nd phase which would make BJ seem like a godsend but I am not too hopeful.

Much of what has caused the big problems was kicked off when several embassies stopped issuing income letters. If anything, the people at the upper economic levels are not pleased with the potential resulting disruption to sales and rentals of property, retail sales etc. whether or not that displeasure resulted in BJ's dismissal, obviously what he was doing didn't filter down from on high in  a way that they liked.

 

Many farang continue to travel to Thailand and others  continue to get annual extensions without a problem. If your circumstances cause you a problem, that alone doesn't equate to xenophobia just because you happen to be a foreigner.  There have always been farang who decided to pack it in. They seem to be replaced by others.

 

Some people may choose to move on, but the vocal, noisy minority on TV don't reflect a valid picture of all  farang in Thailand. I haven't noticed or been affected by the alleged increase in xenophobia. Some farang seem to expect everyone to love them and they throw a hissy fit if someone doesn't smile at them or if they experience some inconvenience. Thailand is hardly alone in imposing more restrictions on economic refugees or others who don't behave in a way that makes them undesirable here.

[sfokevin]

Before you call the Thais xenophobic take a look at your home countries immigration policy...

Mine involves the potential of being caged... 

[Chrisswe]

First of all, you can't comment this in an honest manner, than you run a great risk of penalty ! If you want to stay here in Thailand you must accept the current situation , sure you must take care your own buiseness and family if so. The current situation is not our (expats) buiseness that's belong to the Thai-peoples, so go on bee happy if possible othervise leave the country !!!!

[Pattaya46]

37 minutes ago, Jingjock said:

I lived here 9 years, walk along Soi Buakhao tonight (Songkran) and see how many tourists are here, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work that one out, the bars are empty.

I failed to see the relation between the number of tourists and the number of customers in bars , mainly in Soi Buakhao where bars are places for some expats to go pick up ladies for sex...!

 

Pattaya got 8 millions tourists last year, and no doubt it will get more this year 

[Snow Leopard]

20 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

"giving up"?

Did we all give up when we left our home countries and when we moved to Thailand?

Or did we make a decision that we wanted something different than "home"?

And now, if some people decide that they move again out of Thailand do they "give up"? Or do they decide that now they want to live somewhere else again?

 

Currently I am happy in Thailand and I guess I will live here for at least another 10 years, probably longer.

But with higher age and higher health risk and higher health insurance cost I might consider my options.

Well, put. I have been an expat for most of my life. I have worked with many older people along the way, Sadly a lot of these have gone back to the UK and passed away.

 

I have a few theories on this. Only theories and this led me to live in Thailand (Amongst other things). Its the cold, damp and lack of sunlight in the UK that gets you. Yes, you might have mediocre free health care but it's the cold and damp that gets you in the end. 

 

So this is a double edge sword I guess. The longer you live and the older you get the harder it becomes to get health care overseas as an expat. 

 

I think my choice going forward will be to keep both options on the table and in play. 

[Thaidream]

16 hours ago, elviajero said:

If I had 1 baht for every time I've been annoyed by immigration regulation/law or general Thai bureaucracy, I'd have THB 1,000,000,000,000,000,001; but I get over it!

 

"Some" will go because of it, but most will stay.

I agree completely- as long as it is possible to comply- one gets past the bureaucracy and does get over it. 

 

However- there is an irritation factor that does start to build up and then one starts to re-evaluate the whole situation.  If someone had ever told me that I would have any doubt as Thailand being the most favored location on this planet to live- I would have looked in disbelief.  However, the truth is - doubts have entered my mind and I do have to take stock of the totality of life in Thailand.

 

So far the positives  outnumber the negatives but the gap is  closing and I do believe that in the future- many expats and tourists will give Thailand a pass.

 

For me- it's more sadness than anything- because the potential of the country and it's people are unlimited.

 

[robertson468]

On 4/14/2019 at 8:35 AM, geoffbezoz said:

In my opinion whether it was BJ or mickey mouse getting pushed out, nothing will change for the better. The apparent increase in xenophobia against Farangs in particular has filtered down from people far higher up the sociopolitical arena than Big Joke.  He was just a "first pass policy" tool who could be binned when his purpose was served. I hope there is no 2nd phase which would make BJ seem like a godsend but I am not too hopeful.

The xenophobia is all on your side.  I have been here 15 years and complied with the Immigration Laws and never, ever had a problem and even asked for help for my next application due to one month short of banking 40K baht a month (Married to Thai National).  The biggest problems are:  Some have not been complying with the Law and have now been found out and are not happy.  Their fault, not Thai fault.  Change in rules adversely affect some people just because it is CHANGE and they have difficult in adapting.  Their issue and the various Embassies fault, not Thai fault.  However if you feel you are being prejudiced against and Thailand is not your thing.......... bye, bye and good luck, hope you find contentment in the next place you decide to settle in.

[NoshowJones]

On 4/14/2019 at 9:33 AM, luckyluke said:

 

The Americans, Australians, British may represent the largest part of expats in Thailand, there is still a great number of nationalities who don't encounter any difficulty to obtain a "Retirement Visa". 

 

A L.o.I. is still issued by their embassy/consulate and happily seen at Immigration (practically no work for the officer). 

 

I therefore have some doubt about the fact that some pretend Farangs are targeted. 

 

It it was the case Immigration would have cancel the L.o.I. as possibility to obtain an extension. 

 

15+ years I, and many others, used it, and still do. 

 

It may of course change tomorrow, but why should Immigration do it ( making the life of their officers more difficult). 

 

The theory that Immigration want that everybody use an agent doesn't make any sense to me as well, as long as  they accept a L.o.I..

 

I just read on a Dutch/Flemish forum that Chang Mai Immigration still accepted a combination method from a Dutch, 400000 ThB on a bankbook in Thailand, monthly 1000 Euro (+/-36000 THB) pension income,

confirmed with a L.o.I..

 

What is L.o.l..?  The amount of lazy typists of Thaivisa is getting really bad now. Don't mind the obvious ones, but what is the.. at the end?

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

What is L.o.l..?

L.o.I. : Letter of Income.

Used 100 times in many topics here, I thought it was obvious. 

Sorry.