Do you believe in God and why

[Hummin]

5 hours ago, saintdomingo said:

Mr Scherlock doesn't know what he's talking about.

There is no insure possible or necessary. Christ made a once for all perfect, finished sacrifice for sin on Calvary. You cannot earn your way to heaven. The requirements are, to fully repent, accept Christ as your saviour, sin no more and obey the commandments. But the gate is narrow.

So where that leaves us I am not sure.

 

The road to heaven is through "Maria Magdalena" make her an honourable woman.  

[saintdomingo]

44 minutes ago, Hummin said:

The road to heaven is through "Maria Magdalena" make her an honourable woman.  

The Bible makes no mention of it.

 

Any doctrine that cannot be proven from Scripture is not a true Christian doctrine.

 

I am the way, the truth and the life no-one comes to the Father but through me. Christ speaking of himself not Mary Magdalene.

[Hummin]

2 minutes ago, saintdomingo said:

The Bible makes no mention of it.

 

Any doctrine that cannot be proven from Scripture is not a true Christian doctrine.

 

I am the way, the truth and the life no-one comes to the Father but through me. Christ speaking of himself not Mary Magdalene.

You know the texts in the bible is rewritten, translated and selectivively choosen and left out all gospels by women, and about the women? 

[saintdomingo]

The Bible is God's word revealed to man and the only basis for Christianity.

It is the final authority, above all myths, legends, rituals, traditions, councils and hallucinations.

No problem with Mary Magdalene but there is the Holy Trinity and there is the rest of us.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

None are righteous no not one.

[Hummin]

4 minutes ago, saintdomingo said:

The Bible is God's word revealed to man and the only basis for Christianity.

It is the final authority, above all myths, legends, rituals, traditions, councils and hallucinations.

No problem with Mary Magdalene but there is the Holy Trinity and there is the rest of us.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

None are righteous no not one.

What about Mohammed? Why is he not the man to follow and include? After all same family, same people, same region origin. Mohammed accept and aknownledge Jesus as an prophet

 

Muhammad was the chosen recipient and messenger of the word of God through the divine revelations,

The two religions share similar values, guidelines, and principles. Islam also incorporates Jewish history as a part of its own. Muslims regard the Children of Israel as an important religious concept in Islam. Moses, the most important prophet of Judaism, is also considered a prophet and messenger in Islam.

[saintdomingo]

Well Mary Magdalene didn't last long as the secret to eternal life, one challenge and she was tossed aside like last night's Echo as we used to say.

 

Muhammed, don't know much about him. Worked with any number of his adherents in London and just ignored them, going on all the time.

 

Religion I once read is the search for eternal life. Theology I also read is the structure of religion. It is theology that interests me, basically the Reformation. 

But enough for my first shift, no doubt we will communicate again soon. Cheers.

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, saintdomingo said:

Well Mary Magdalene didn't last long as the secret to eternal life, one challenge and she was tossed aside like last night's Echo as we used to say.

 

Muhammed, don't know much about him. Worked with any number of his adherents in London and just ignored them, going on all the time.

 

Religion I once read is the search for eternal life. Theology I also read is the structure of religion. It is theology that interests me, basically the Reformation. 

But enough for my first shift, no doubt we will communicate again soon. Cheers.

Im pretty much done, 

 

Religion is political tools, constructed for us to pull in same direction, and give reasons to demonize the counterpart who fight for the same land and resources. Simply said

[Chris Daley]

Religion is mental suicide.  It tells you not to think.

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, Chris Daley said:

Religion is mental suicide.  It tells you not to think.

obviously some people need somehting to find a purpose and meaning and feel as a whole human being above the animals. What about you? Just an animal who happenend to be on top of the food chain for a breef moment in history? 

[save the frogs]

On 7/21/2024 at 7:56 AM, saintdomingo said:

Do any RCs actually believe in transubstantiation - that in the Mass the wafer changes substance to become "really, truly and substantially the Body of Christ," "while retaining the appearance and properties of a wafer."

I still remember it from a school history lesson on the Reformation. Could hardly believe what I was hearing.

 

That's an extremely bizarre and actually disturbing ritual.

If you believe that wafer is 'the body of someone', then what are you doing eating it? Cannibalism? 

If it truly had mystical powers, then people would be transformed from partaking in that ritual.

But hate to break it to you, but I did not see anyone getting mystically transformed after eating wafers at Church. 

 

[saintdomingo]

9 hours ago, save the frogs said:

 

That's an extremely bizarre and actually disturbing ritual.

If you believe that wafer is 'the body of someone', then what are you doing eating it? Cannibalism? 

If it truly had mystical powers, then people would be transformed from partaking in that ritual.

But hate to break it to you, but I did not see anyone getting mystically transformed after eating wafers at Church. 

 

It is still RC doctrine from the Council of Trent. The wafer "becomes really, truly and substantially the Body of Christ." "whilst retaining the appearance and properties of a wafer."

Pew Research of Washington, DC conducted a survey of RCs a few years ago which showed that of those polled only 25% understood transubstantiation and that of those who understood only 25% believed it.

 

So Mr Frog you are interested enough in the subject to contribute to it and you did not know that this was a basic teaching of those who tell us they are "The One True Church." Makes you wonder what the uninterested majority know and think. Seems Rome are not pushing their message properly.

[Sunmaster]

Shamanic rituals invole the use enteogenic substances (psychedelic "soul revealing" plants and mushrooms that are passed around. These rituals are aimed at revealing to the participants parts of themselves that are hidden and at reconnecting them to who they really are. Going through such a journey opens the traveller to sometimes radical transformative experiences. Not just physical, but mental and emotional. Possibly even spiritual. 

 

The passing around of the eucharist waffle seems to be a symbolic reenactment of such a ritual.

 

Unfortunately, the real meaning and especially the efficacy of the original rituals have been watered down to a meaningless habit that transforms absolutely nothing. It's a waste of time, basically. 

[ravip]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:08 PM, Chris Daley said:

Religion is mental suicide.  It tells you not to think.

I too agree with this statement, especially after hearing religious stuff been broadcasted over loudspeakers in some countries -  basically terrorising the neighbourhood. Politicians, law enforcers ignore this purposely for their own gain. Are those gods deaf, or does loud sounds make people closer to that god or whatever?

This is just one example.

 

[VincentRJ]

23 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Shamanic rituals invole the use enteogenic substances (psychedelic "soul revealing" plants and mushrooms that are passed around. These rituals are aimed at revealing to the participants parts of themselves that are hidden and at reconnecting them to who they really are. Going through such a journey opens the traveller to sometimes radical transformative experiences. Not just physical, but mental and emotional. Possibly even spiritual. 

 

The passing around of the eucharist waffle seems to be a symbolic reenactment of such a ritual.

 

Unfortunately, the real meaning and especially the efficacy of the original rituals have been watered down to a meaningless habit that transforms absolutely nothing. It's a waste of time, basically. 

 

"Unfortunately, the real meaning and especially the efficacy of the original rituals have been watered down to a meaningless habit that transforms absolutely nothing. It's a waste of time, basically."

 

I tend to agree, but we should not ignore the placebo effect. This is a major factor in all beliefs, even when one takes a medically prescribed drug to cure an ailment. Without a belief in the soundness of the medical system and the testing of drugs, the drug would be less effective.

[saintdomingo]

On 7/26/2024 at 9:06 PM, Sunmaster said:

 

 

Unfortunately, the real meaning and especially the efficacy of the original rituals have been watered down to a meaningless habit that transforms absolutely nothing. It's a waste of time, basically. 

So you think that the RC mass has both "a real meaning" and "efficacy".

I am genuinely looking forward to the explanations of these two Sunmaster.

Also to hearing what was transformed in the first place.

[Sunmaster]

1 hour ago, saintdomingo said:

So you think that the RC mass has both "a real meaning" and "efficacy".

I am genuinely looking forward to the explanations of these two Sunmaster.

Also to hearing what was transformed in the first place.

I don't know what RC stands for.

 

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, saintdomingo said:

So you think that the RC mass has both "a real meaning" and "efficacy".

I am genuinely looking forward to the explanations of these two Sunmaster.

Also to hearing what was transformed in the first place.

Oh, Roman Catholic....right.

The rituals repeated by the Church during the weekly mass are just bland mimicking of real transformative rituals. How many know what the eucharist is and what it symbolises? And how many have actually felt transformed by it? And I don't mean a superficial "feel good" warm, fuzzy feeling of having done something towards that coveted place in heaven. I mean true transformation. 

Transformation happens when we dis-identify from the ego-centric perspective and take a higher and wider perspective. This brings growth, not a superficial habit, whose true meaning has been lost ages ago and is lost on the vast majority of church goers.

 

I'm happy to be proven wrong though. Maybe you have an amazing story of transformation by swallowing the godly wafer. 

 

For every ritual there is a very simple test to ascertain its effectiveness: Does it work?

To me it seems obvious that it doesn't. How many people have awakened by going to the Sunday mass? 

 

 

@Red Phoenix

I dont think we can talk about the placebo effect when it comes to awakening. Anything less than being awake is sleeping. Believing alone (which is what the PE is based on) will not wake you up from the dream. Believing that the eucharist gives you some sort of super power or connects you to Christ or whatever it's supposed to accomplish, may give you a good night's sleep, but in terms of transformation, I think it's useless. 

 

I'm not ditching religious ritual as a whole. It still can give moral and ethical guidelines for those who need them. But on a spiritual level, the amount of BS involved is so thick that it would take a lifetime of wading through it to find something remotely useful. I don't see the point and think it's a waste of precious time. The clock is ticking. With every spent breath and every heartbeat we get a little closer to the finishing line. 

 

[saintdomingo]

Well they teach and insist that the wafer changes substance and becomes "really, truly and substantially the Body of Christ" "whilst retaining the appearance and properties of a wafer."

Added to this they believe the mass is a continuation of the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary.

The Bible teaches that Calvary was a once for all, perfect finished sacrifice for sin. And no further sacrifices are 

Most Protestant denominations view Holy Communion as purely a commemoration. Some only holding it twice a year.

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Oh, Roman Catholic....right.

The rituals repeated by the Church during the weekly mass are just bland mimicking of real transformative rituals. How many know what the eucharist is and what it symbolises? And how many have actually felt transformed by it? And I don't mean a superficial "feel good" warm, fuzzy feeling of having done something towards that coveted place in heaven. I mean true transformation. 

Transformation happens when we dis-identify from the ego-centric perspective and take a higher and wider perspective. This brings growth, not a superficial habit, whose true meaning has been lost ages ago and is lost on the vast majority of church goers.

 

I'm happy to be proven wrong though. Maybe you have an amazing story of transformation by swallowing the godly wafer. 

 

For every ritual there is a very simple test to ascertain its effectiveness: Does it work?

To me it seems obvious that it doesn't. How many people have awakened by going to the Sunday mass? 

 

 

@Red Phoenix

I dont think we can talk about the placebo effect when it comes to awakening. Anything less than being awake is sleeping. Believing alone (which is what the PE is based on) will not wake you up from the dream. Believing that the eucharist gives you some sort of super power or connects you to Christ or whatever it's supposed to accomplish, may give you a good night's sleep, but in terms of transformation, I think it's useless. 

 

I'm not ditching religious ritual as a whole. It still can give moral and ethical guidelines for those who need them. But on a spiritual level, the amount of BS involved is so thick that it would take a lifetime of wading through it to find something remotely useful. I don't see the point and think it's a waste of precious time. The clock is ticking. With every spent breath and every heartbeat we get a little closer to the finishing line. 

 

Sorry, should have tagged @VincentRJ, not Red Phoenix.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/26/2024 at 3:38 AM, Chris Daley said:

Religion is mental suicide.  It tells you not to think.

Depends on which religion you are talking about. There are probably hundreds to choose from, and one should be your cheese.

 

I certainly never got the impression that my allocated version of childhood stopped me thinking.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Sorry, should have tagged @VincentRJ, not Red Phoenix.

Hey there. I'm just passing through ( having seen your username ) to say hey there.

 

This thread really won't lie down and die! The OP seems to have long departed the forum, but the thread just keeps on resurrecting itself.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 7/26/2024 at 3:49 AM, save the frogs said:

But hate to break it to you, but I did not see anyone getting mystically transformed after eating wafers at Church. 

To my knowledge no one has ever said that eating the body of Christ makes us Christ.

It's just a ritual that can mean whatever one thinks it means. Take marriage- no one now thinks that promising another in the house of the Lord to stay married till death them take actually means anything when the charade finally bites the dust.

[VincentRJ]

4 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

Sorry, should have tagged @VincentRJ, not Red Phoenix.

 

Actually, I initially thought you were posting a quote from a Red Phoenix post, but never mind.

The placebo effect is not fully understood and more research is required. Also, most of the research relates to the effectiveness of drugs administered to cure a disease or ailment.

 

However, I found the following study of the "Placebo Effects in the Context of Religious Beliefs and Practices", which you might find interesting.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2021.653359/full

 

"This study investigated placebo effects in the context of religious beliefs and practices. The participants received an inert substance (tap water) along with the verbal suggestion that the water would come from the sanctuary in Lourdes (a major Catholic pilgrimage site with reports of miracle cures). We investigated changes in resting-state functional connectivity (rsFC) in three brain networks (default-mode, salience, cognitive control) associated with the drinking of the placebo water."

 

"Immediately after the session, the participants reported increased intensity of pleasant bodily sensations (e.g., feelings of warmth, tingling) and feelings (e.g., gratefulness) for the “Lourdes water” condition.
Conclusions: The present findings provide the first evidence that placebos in the context of religious beliefs and practices can change the experience of emotional salience and cognitive control which is accompanied by connectivity changes in the associated brain networks."

 

 

[save the frogs]

sunmaster is back with a bang.

brilliand posts, sunmaster.

 

 

[susanlea]

On 7/23/2024 at 7:44 PM, Hummin said:

What about Mohammed? Why is he not the man to follow and include? After all same family, same people, same region origin. Mohammed accept and aknownledge Jesus as an prophet

 

Muhammad was the chosen recipient and messenger of the word of God through the divine revelations,

The two religions share similar values, guidelines, and principles. Islam also incorporates Jewish history as a part of its own. Muslims regard the Children of Israel as an important religious concept in Islam. Moses, the most important prophet of Judaism, is also considered a prophet and messenger in Islam.

Murderer and child abuse.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Actually, I initially thought you were posting a quote from a Red Phoenix post, but never mind.

The placebo effect is not fully understood and more research is required. Also, most of the research relates to the effectiveness of drugs administered to cure a disease or ailment.

 

However, I found the following study of the "Placebo Effects in the Context of Religious Beliefs and Practices", which you might find interesting.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2021.653359/full

 

"This study investigated placebo effects in the context of religious beliefs and practices. The participants received an inert substance (tap water) along with the verbal suggestion that the water would come from the sanctuary in Lourdes (a major Catholic pilgrimage site with reports of miracle cures). We investigated changes in resting-state functional connectivity (rsFC) in three brain networks (default-mode, salience, cognitive control) associated with the drinking of the placebo water."

 

"Immediately after the session, the participants reported increased intensity of pleasant bodily sensations (e.g., feelings of warmth, tingling) and feelings (e.g., gratefulness) for the “Lourdes water” condition.
Conclusions: The present findings provide the first evidence that placebos in the context of religious beliefs and practices can change the experience of emotional salience and cognitive control which is accompanied by connectivity changes in the associated brain networks."

 

 

I never before considered that any living human being actually thought they were literally eating Christ's body or drinking his blood, or that water from Lourdes had magical properties. Apparently I was mistaken.

 

I was very religious as a child, and was the youngest sacristan ever in my Anglican boarding school, but they lost me to the Church when they told me that I couldn't be a sacristan anymore because I was too young.

Apparently some in the Christian church don't even know or understand the teachings of the Christ.

Changed from belief to non belief just like that. Became agnostic till my Road to Damascus moment.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, Sunmaster said:

But on a spiritual level, the amount of BS involved is so thick that it would take a lifetime of wading through it to find something remotely useful.

Disagree. The useful bits are easily found. Don't kill is a pretty good one.

 

Treat others as you wish to be treated

Give to the poor

it's easier for a camel to pass through a very small space ( it's not actually a real needle, but a place ) than for a rich man to achieve paradise

God knows what is in your heart

Treat everyone with respect, even your enemies and prostitutes

don't be a hypocrite

Greed is bad

 

[Sunmaster]

32 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Disagree. The useful bits are easily found. Don't kill is a pretty good one.

 

Treat others as you wish to be treated

Give to the poor

it's easier for a camel to pass through a very small space ( it's not actually a real needle, but a place ) than for a rich man to achieve paradise

God knows what is in your heart

Treat everyone with respect, even your enemies and prostitutes

don't be a hypocrite

Greed is bad

 

Those are all good and well, common sense really. They are designed to make life better within the dream, but they are not useful if your goal is to awaken from the dream. 

This actually raises another question, that each one should answer for himself. What is the purpose of being on the spiritual journey? 
Is it a way to escape the harsh reality that we know nothing about the world.
Is it some sort of fashionable add-on or boy scout patch to feel better about ourselves? Showing off to the world what a good person we are?
Is it something that we hope will make us whole? Bring salvation? Bring liberation? Peace of mind?
Is it a genuine desire to walk towards truth, whatever it may look like?
 

[Sunmaster]

2 hours ago, save the frogs said:

sunmaster is back with a bang.

brilliand posts, sunmaster.

 

 

Just passing through. 😉

[Sunmaster]

11 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

 

Actually, I initially thought you were posting a quote from a Red Phoenix post, but never mind.

The placebo effect is not fully understood and more research is required. Also, most of the research relates to the effectiveness of drugs administered to cure a disease or ailment.

 

However, I found the following study of the "Placebo Effects in the Context of Religious Beliefs and Practices", which you might find interesting.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/behavioral-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2021.653359/full

 

"This study investigated placebo effects in the context of religious beliefs and practices. The participants received an inert substance (tap water) along with the verbal suggestion that the water would come from the sanctuary in Lourdes (a major Catholic pilgrimage site with reports of miracle cures). We investigated changes in resting-state functional connectivity (rsFC) in three brain networks (default-mode, salience, cognitive control) associated with the drinking of the placebo water."

 

"Immediately after the session, the participants reported increased intensity of pleasant bodily sensations (e.g., feelings of warmth, tingling) and feelings (e.g., gratefulness) for the “Lourdes water” condition.
Conclusions: The present findings provide the first evidence that placebos in the context of religious beliefs and practices can change the experience of emotional salience and cognitive control which is accompanied by connectivity changes in the associated brain networks."

 

 

Thank you for the link. The study sounds familiar to me. Maybe it was already shared here once.

The placebo effect is a great example for the power of beliefs. If the whole point of religion were to strengthen this ability (that we can change things thanks to our belief...for example that prayers are answered), then this alone should give it a reason to be. Awakening is much more than that, though....I think.