O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Andrew Dwyer]

14 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

You can certainly be issued a Visa Exempt 30 day entry at a land border, presuming you have not done the same thing previously!

 

I crossed this border to get the most from my valid OA ( 2nd year ) in 2017 , it was a quick and easy process .

Would the 20,000 baht and ticket out of the country rules apply ?

[Jingthing]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Yes, but we would have got comments alluding to the 2 limit rule had I not mentioned it... just as I will now irritate you by saying he is on an Extension not a visa! ????

Did he say whether his original O-A visa was still valid or not? I missed that. So I didn't say visa or extension, just O-A. I hope that meets your specifications, sir.

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

I crossed this border to get the most from my valid OA ( 2nd year ) in 2017 , it was a quick and easy process .

Would the 20,000 baht and ticket out of the country rules apply ?

10,000 for a sole traveler on a Visa Exempt... I don't believe they ask for a ticket at the land borders unless looking for a reason to bar you. 

[britishjohn]

A friend of mine who works at Chaengwattana took a copy of my OA visa today to the correct dept to find out if I'll need insurance on extension. I just got the message that I will need Thai insurance.

It seems possible from the reports that only those applying for an OA and those seeking an extension will require insurance. 

If true my options are :

1.Let the OA expire and try to get an O, although doubt it being cast on how easy that will be and if refused it would be a real pain.

2.Use a lawyer/agent to obtain extension without insurance, if possible.

3.Cough up for a wasted piece of insurance paper. There has been suggestions that it may be possible to use deductions to reduce the premium on the policies. Is this a real possibility ?

[jackdd]

8 hours ago, Andrew Dwyer said:

Would the 20,000 baht and ticket out of the country rules apply ?

Visa exempt cash requirement is 10k and a ticket out is not required if you walk into Thailand

Edited November 13, 2019 by jackdd

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, britishjohn said:

 

3.Cough up for a wasted piece of insurance paper. There has been suggestions that it may be possible to use deductions to reduce the premium on the policies. Is this a real possibility ?

 

I don't know about the deductibles issue re all of the O-A certified insurance providers. But one of them, Pacific Cross, has confirmed that their general public O-A eligible policies (Standard Extra, Premier, Maxima, Ultima) can have deductibles. Those range from 40K to 300K per year, and will reduce the standard premiums by between 25% and 50%.

 

Their only O-A eligible policies that do not offer any deductibles are their Platinum 1-3 series policies, which are high cost, low cover policies specifically established for the O-A/O-X visa programs (and not the general public).

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Posted yesterday on the Thai Visa Advise FB page:

 

[Kadilo]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Posted yesterday on the Thai Visa Advise FB page:

 

So how many years has he been on an Extension of stay?

 

Am i right I’m thinking then that if you do not leave Thailand it will get flagged at your next renewal in your local IO or if you leave it will get flagged at Immigration on your way back in at the airport ?

 

Clearly many people have returned on the past few weeks on EOS with no issue. 
All very confusing. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Kadilo

[tgeezer]

Can anyone explain to me why IOs at borders are interested in the requirement for health insurance when the police order states that it applies to extensions? 
 

[lkv]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Can anyone explain to me why IOs at borders are interested in the requirement for health insurance when the police order states that it applies to extensions? 
 

Excellent question.

 

It's based on the direct instruction of Police Lieutenant General Sompong Chingduan, with no apparent legal written basis (apart from his own writing).

 

So, to answer your question, it's because this guy says so (or said so). Internally, to his staff.

 

So yes, you are actually right, the police order does not address entries, but extensions only.

 

Now, my question is (although perhaps redundant), because they are now "exercising their discretion", having given visa exempt entries to some.....

 

Should a person be rejected for not having insurance, that person would be rejected under what section of the Immigration act? ????

 

My second question would refer to the legality of issuing a visa exempt permission of stay (that is technically issued when one has no valid visa), on a valid visa.

 

Could someone more knowledgeable dig this one up?

 

@Maestro

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by lkv

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

Can anyone explain to me why IOs at borders are interested in the requirement for health insurance when the police order states that it applies to extensions? 
 

It doesn't ONLY apply to Extensions, but also the issuance of Permissions to Stay for people showing Non-Imm_OA Visas. 

[lkv]

13 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It doesn't ONLY apply to Extensions, but also the issuance of Permissions to Stay for people showing Non-Imm_OA Visas. 

Where in the Police order does it say that?

 

I have just re-read all of it before I answered the previous question, maybe I have missed it?

Edited November 14, 2019 by lkv

[jacko45k]

22 minutes ago, lkv said:

Where in the Police order does it say that?

Sheet 7 of this (English) .

 

[lkv]

6 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Sheet 7 of this (English) .

 

You are misunderstanding it.

 

Amendment for Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien's Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom

 

Application = Application for a Non O-A visa overseas.

 

Nothing to do with permission of stay being granted at the border.

 

I know it sounds confusing, but it amends previous criterias that also refer to the basis on which visas are being issued.

Edited November 14, 2019 by lkv

[jacko45k]

4 minutes ago, lkv said:

Amendment for Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien's Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom

It does not say application for a Visa, but application for a Temporary Stay. The final decision is not with the Visa issuer, but with the immigration at the border. 

[lkv]

4 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

It does not say application for a Visa, but application for a Temporary Stay. The final decision is not with the Visa issuer, but with the immigration at the border. 

It is deemed expedient to amend the Criteria and Conditions for Consideration of an Alien's Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom in accordance with the Cabinet Resolution as of April 2, 2019 which approved in principle to add a criterion for consideration concerning a health insurance's requirement for an alien applying for Non-Immigrant Visa Class O-A.

 

Keep reading it carefully to the end, paying attention to what it amends, and you will see it amends previous orders that relate to the issuance of the non O-A.

Edited November 14, 2019 by lkv

[jackdd]

40 minutes ago, lkv said:

Where in the Police order does it say that?

 

I have just re-read all of it before I answered the previous question, maybe I have missed it?

On the last page of this document:

17 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Sheet 7 of this (English) .

 

 

[lkv]

5 minutes ago, jackdd said:

On the last page of this document:

 

Yes, that is the exact page I have attached a few posts earlier, post #1002.

 

That's not the Police order, is it now?

 

Does it say anywhere on that page...Police order?

 

I know it may seem it's part of the police order, just because it happens to be in the same pdf, but it's not.

 

Read my previous post #1002.

Edited November 14, 2019 by lkv

[tgeezer]

Thank goodness someone has engaged some neurones at last. 
You see the officer who decided that the extra requirement applied to holders of O-A visas entering the country did so because he could see that an A-O visa differed from an O visa in one important respect, that of finances and it applied only for the stays based on that visa.  He concluded that the DG of police must have made the rule because of that reason. If asked confidentially he would probably agree with my numerous posts on the subject. 
 
The translator probably didn’t understand the subject and the order is probably correct in Thai. 

[jackdd]

41 minutes ago, lkv said:

Yes, that is the exact page I have attached a few posts earlier, post #1002.

 

That's not the Police order, is it now?

 

Does it say anywhere on that page...Police order?

 

I know it may seem it's part of the police order, just because it happens to be in the same pdf, but it's not.

 

Read my previous post #1002.

Actually there are three different documents (and the translations) in this PDF file.

Do you now want to argue that the "police memo" (which effectively orders IOs to do something, so could be called a police order), is not a "police order"? I don't know the legal differences between those two types of notifications, but i'm quite certain that IOs at entry points have to follow both, so they are about on the same level.

IOs at entry points have been ordered (through a "memo") to only let people on an OA visa in if these persons have insurance.

Edited November 14, 2019 by jackdd

[Sheryl]

13 hours ago, britishjohn said:

A friend of mine who works at Chaengwattana took a copy of my OA visa today to the correct dept to find out if I'll need insurance on extension. I just got the message that I will need Thai insurance.

It seems possible from the reports that only those applying for an OA and those seeking an extension will require insurance. 

If true my options are :

1.Let the OA expire and try to get an O, although doubt it being cast on how easy that will be and if refused it would be a real pain.

2.Use a lawyer/agent to obtain extension without insurance, if possible.

3.Cough up for a wasted piece of insurance paper. There has been suggestions that it may be possible to use deductions to reduce the premium on the policies. Is this a real possibility ?

Although you were told this, at least 1 person on an OA extension recently received further extension at CW with no mention of insurance. The people answering questions aren't always well informed. So before doing anything else simply apply for the extension in the usual way but do so 30-45 days in advance.

 

If that fails then in answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. Those casting doubt are speculating only. No reports that I have seen of anyone so far being unable to do this.

 

2.No reports of anyone doing this as yet. Unclear if lawyer or agent can help.  If you go this route make sure payment is conditional on success as you might otherwise waste money.

 

3. Provided you are under 75 you can apply for a policy with Pacific Cross with a deductible as high as 300,000 baht which will reduce the premium by half making it the least ecpensive option. It is  fine if you already have good insurance OR are well able to afford 300k baht in medical costs. If neither is the case would do better to get a lower deductible or none at all depending on how much savings you can readily access. The application process takes some time and if you are over 65 will include a physical check up. You don't pay the premium until you are accepted so might like to start the process ahead of time if taking this route.

 

If you are over 75 there is no insurance option. Likewise if you are refused insurance due to pre-existing conditions which can happen if you have say diabetes, heart, liver or kidney disease, or history of cancer. 

 

If by any chance you are married to a Thai switching to marriage extension is also an option.

[Peter Denis]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Posted yesterday on the Thai Visa Advise FB page:

 

It's a pity that mr Trumbell did not mention the expiry date of his original OA Visa.

There are 2 scenarios now:

1. If his original OA Visa expired BEFORE leaving Thailand mid December, AND he bought a Re-entry permit before leaving, his permission to stay till August 2020 will be kept alive, and he won't have to purchase insurance.

2. If his original OA Visa is still valid when he plans to return to Thailand after Christmas, he could be denied a new full 1 year permission to stay, and despite his permission to stay till August 2020, could be stamped in for only 30 days to sort out the health-insurance issue.

So that 2nd scenario must be the case the Immigration Official is referring to.

But I am still hopeful that that is incorrect, and that holders of a non-expired pre Oct 31 issued Visa will be stamped in for the full year that they are entitled to.

At least once case confirms this:

 

[tgeezer]

I have pointed this out before but will again. Do you know that the police order refers to people who do not exist? Rule 6 which says that if you entered the country over the age of 50 twenty one years ago and are over 60 now that certain conditions apply and even worse under the age of 55 now! 
This in the same order which we are supposed to respect. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

41 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

2. If his original OA Visa is still valid when he plans to return to Thailand after Christmas, he could be denied a new full 1 year permission to stay, and despite his permission to stay till August 2020, could be stamped in for only 30 days to sort out the health-insurance issue.

So that 2nd scenario must be the case the Immigration Official is referring to.

 

One of the other problems about these kinds of reports is the person involved is asking the right question of the WRONG Immigration staff...

 

The FP poster, not surprisingly, was asking his local Immigration office what will happen at the airport in the future when he re-enters Thailand on a pre-Oct. 31 O-A visa. When ideally, he should have been asking that question at Swampy Immigration who'll be the ones deciding his fate later in the year.

 

One of the many disconnects here, I think, is the local Immigration officers may not know, or may not be up to date, on what the airport officers are doing. And likewise, I know from personal experience, the airport officers don't seem familiar at all with some issues in the purview of local Immigration offices.

 

It's possible the Udon Thani officer was handing out advice based on the early days enforcement "policy" that was being used at the airports against pre-Oct. 31 O-A visa holders. But then in more recent days, supposedly, the airport officers were given new instructions that the pre-Oct. 31 folks were not supposed to be hassled...  Who knows....

[Jorge Owen]

On 11/6/2019 at 2:35 PM, sfokevin said:

but consider health insurance an unnecessary expense at 6-8K a month.

Is it agreed that this is a general all purpose figure now for people in their 60s and 70s?  For people without pre-exisiting medical conditions?  That is to say, would this figure satisfy minimal government requirements for health insurance?  

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, Jorge Owen said:

Is it agreed that this is a general all purpose figure now for people in their 60s and 70s?  For people without pre-exisiting medical conditions?  That is to say, would this figure satisfy minimal government requirements for health insurance?  

 

The government's requirement is to have at least 40K worth of outpatient cover and 400K worth of inpatient cover from a list of government-approved Thai insurers and policies.  There is no requirement at all about how much such policies cost.

 

How much any of those actually cost per month or per year can vary widely depending on what insurer is writing the policy, the age of the applicant, which particular policy the applicant chooses, and whether or not the policy has annual deductible provisions that will reduce its standard premiums.

 

Just on the age issue, the typical premiums for health insurance will increase substantially as the person goes from the 50s age range to the 60s age range and then up to the 70s age range and beyond, totally apart from all the other factors that come into play.

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[AAArdvark]

Is there any recent experience from someone who has reentered at DMK with a still valid (1st year) O-A.

[britishjohn]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Although you were told this, at least 1 person on an OA extension recently received further extension at CW with no mention of insurance. The people answering questions aren't always well informed. So before doing anything else simply apply for the extension in the usual way but do so 30-45 days in advance.

 

If that fails then in answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes. Those casting doubt are speculating only. No reports that I have seen of anyone so far being unable to do this.

 

2.No reports of anyone doing this as yet. Unclear if lawyer or agent can help.  If you go this route make sure payment is conditional on success as you might otherwise waste money.

 

3. Provided you are under 75 you can apply for a policy with Pacific Cross with a deductible as high as 300,000 baht which will reduce the premium by half making it the least ecpensive option. It is  fine if you already have good insurance OR are well able to afford 300k baht in medical costs. If neither is the case would do better to get a lower deductible or none at all depending on how much savings you can readily access. The application process takes some time and if you are over 65 will include a physical check up. You don't pay the premium until you are accepted so might like to start the process ahead of time if taking this route.

 

If you are over 75 there is no insurance option. Likewise if you are refused insurance due to pre-existing conditions which can happen if you have say diabetes, heart, liver or kidney disease, or history of cancer. 

 

If by any chance you are married to a Thai switching to marriage extension is also an option.

I appreciate there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding even among those who are supposed to know what is going on. 

With regard to the insurance, I had a quick chat with one of the agents for Pacific Cross. I'm in my 50's and have a worldwide policy with Cigna that I want to keep. He told me there was a policy available for 32k baht, which could be reduced further by using deductibles. So if I could get that below 20k it's not the end of the world. But I'm awaiting his email for confirmation.

However introducing a deductible of 300k on a 400k cover shows what a complete joke these policies are. And the fact that it is still approved for the visa seems odd. What if you can't afford the deductible ? Doesn't this make a mockery of the whole thing.

You say the application process takes a while, how long are we talking ?

[Jorge Owen]

43 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The government's requirement is to have at least 40K worth of outpatient cover and 400K worth of inpatient cover from a list of government-approved Thai insurers and policies.  There is no requirement at all about how much such policies cost.

 

How much any of those actually cost per month or per year can vary widely depending on what insurer is writing the policy, the age of the applicant, which particular policy the applicant chooses, and whether or not the policy has annual deductible provisions that will reduce its standard premiums.

 

Just on the age issue, the typical premiums for health insurance will increase substantially as the person goes from the 50s age range to the 60s age range and then up to the 70s age range and beyond, totally apart from all the other factors that come into play.

 

Thanks for the response.  I'm aware of the governments requirement, but up to now haven't a clear idea of even ballpark figures for monthly/annual insurance expenses.  It's a concern as my wife and I have been here for a few years now, have the car, condo, etc. and have a budget that basically allows us to break even.  This new regulation is a potential bank breaker.  Especially if, as some on TV are suggesting, choices that are acceptable by Immigration are limited to a few companies that offer not so good plans.  That said, I'm aware that premiums go up as one gets older.

[Mango Bob]

7 minutes ago, britishjohn said:

I appreciate there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding even among those who are supposed to know what is going on. 

With regard to the insurance, I had a quick chat with one of the agents for Pacific Cross. I'm in my 50's and have a worldwide policy with Cigna that I want to keep. He told me there was a policy available for 32k baht, which could be reduced further by using deductibles. So if I could get that below 20k it's not the end of the world. But I'm awaiting his email for confirmation.

However introducing a deductible of 300k on a 400k cover shows what a complete joke these policies are. And the fact that it is still approved for the visa seems odd. What if you can't afford the deductible ? Doesn't this make a mockery of the whole thing.

You say the application process takes a while, how long are we talking ?

PC policies for the 300.000 baht are not 400,000 inpatient.  They are policies like their Standard Extra which has 780,000 inpatient covers.