Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, izod10 said:

Shetland and Orkney have responded to the referdum propsal stating they will not join Scotland,   LIb dems in power there  no fish no oil   dear me

More info please - who was the formally appointed representative of Orkney and Shetland, how did they gauge the reaction of their ward, and what was the forum in which they declared their defiance?

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The demographics are such that something like 75% of those under 25 are in favour of independence. Of those under 65, 59% are in favour - the only demographic with majority support for the union is in the over 65s. Even if nothing else changes, attrition will see the rise in support for independence continue unabated. 

 

So I will repeat my previous question - what do you suppose will happen to change the minds of a significant number of people, when the things that they are clearly not happy about show no sign of changing. 

 

I am no more capable of reading the tea leaves than you are, but simple common sense tells me that something fundamental needs to happen in order to change the perspectives of an increasing number of people. 

The demographics are such that something like 75% of those under 25 are in favour of independence. Of those under 65, 59% are in favour - the only demographic with majority support for the union is in the over 65s. Even if nothing else changes, attrition will see the rise in support for independence continue unabated. 

 

Those Scots under 25 won't always be under 25, people get older by the year, even the over 65s will be replaced, and with getting older comes with it wisdom and a better understanding of our surroundings and our political beliefs. Do you think people are unlikely to change their minds.

 

So I will repeat my previous question - what do you suppose will happen to change the minds of a significant number of people, when the things that they are clearly not happy about show no sign of changing. 

 

You are the one that needs to change the minds of the Scots, your graph shows remain leading.

As much as you hate Boris, he is not as stupid as you would like to believe, you may be getting 'love bombed' very shortly. But according to your graph he has no need to do this just yet, if ever. Let's see if your orange and blue lines on the graph you have provided should cross each other or whether they start to grow apart, only time will tell on that one, suffice to say it is hardly an endorsement for another referendum, doesn't Mrs Sturgeon believe this also, she doesn't seem to be in any rush for another referendum. I have shown a graph not long ago that the Scots themselves are in no great hurry for another referendum.

 

 

 

 

[izod10]

24 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

More info please - who was the formally appointed representative of Orkney and Shetland, how did they gauge the reaction of their ward, and what was the forum in which they declared their defiance?

They voted LIB DEM in overwhelming numbers....but Im with you   I want shut of Scotland too

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

The demographics are such that something like 75% of those under 25 are in favour of independence. Of those under 65, 59% are in favour - the only demographic with majority support for the union is in the over 65s. Even if nothing else changes, attrition will see the rise in support for independence continue unabated. 

 

Those Scots under 25 won't always be under 25, people get older by the year, even the over 65s will be replaced, and with getting older comes with it wisdom and a better understanding of our surroundings and our political beliefs. Do you think people are unlikely to change their minds.

 

 

If it was only 25 year olds I would have to agree with you, but all the way up to 65 there is a majority in favour. Clearly this is not political naivety or a lack of worldly experience being reflected here. The majority of people between 25 and 65, those who are more likely to have come to a political grounding, want independence.

 

Of course some of the 25 year olds who now support independence will change their minds as they mature, but there is nothing to suggest that this would be in anything close to the numbers required to flatten out the rise of indy. As for those more mature voters - if they are for independence in their middle ages, I cannot see many changing as they get older.

 

12 minutes ago, vogie said:

You are the one that needs to change the minds of the Scots, your graph shows remain leading.

As much as you hate Boris, he is not as stupid as you would like to believe, you may be getting 'love bombed' very shortly. But according to your graph he has no need to do this just yet, if ever. Let's see if your orange and blue lines on the graph you have provided should cross each other or whether they start to grow apart, only time will tell on that one, suffice to say it is hardly an endorsement for another referendum, doesn't Mrs Sturgeon believe this also, she doesn't seem to be in any rush for another referendum. I have shown a graph not long ago that the Scots themselves are in no great hurry for another referendum.

 

The graph has not been updated to show the last 3 polls, all showing significant promise. One poll at 50/50, 2 with independence in the lead and the unionists in the minority. 

 

I agree with you about Sturgeon's hesitance - many people are getting itchy feet.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, izod10 said:

They voted LIB DEM in overwhelming numbers....but Im with you   I want shut of Scotland too

So was there a formal response to the mooted referendum or not? 

[evadgib]

43 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Really, back this lie claim up please...

Your posts are readily available to anyone that hasn't already laughed at them as described.

HTH

Edited February 20, 2020 by evadgib

[Bluespunk]

Just now, evadgib said:

Your posts are readily available to anyone that hasn't already laughed at them.

HTH

What does that have to do with my post?

 

Second post of yours today I've had to ask you to explain.

 

Still not heard your explanation in the first one yet...

[Rookiescot]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So was there a formal response to the mooted referendum or not? 

Dont hold your breath RR.

Izod is a seagull poster.

Swoops in, cr@ps everywhere then flies off.

[evadgib]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

What does that have to do with my post?

 

Second post of yours today I've had to ask you to explain.

 

Still not heard your explanation in the first one yet...

Both were self explanatory and fully understood despite claims to the contrary.

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Dont hold your breath RR.

Izod is a seagull poster.

Swoops in, cr@ps everywhere then flies off.

...& for good measure he's probably ???????????????????????????? too ????

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Both were self explanatory and fully understood despite claims to the contrary.

Ah, brexicology, "I can claim, but cannot explain".

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

...& for good measure he's probably ???????????????????????????? too ????

I was guessing German actually.

[Rimmer]

Troll post removed

[Nigel Garvie]

11 hours ago, vogie said:

The demographics are such that something like 75% of those under 25 are in favour of independence. Of those under 65, 59% are in favour - the only demographic with majority support for the union is in the over 65s. Even if nothing else changes, attrition will see the rise in support for independence continue unabated. 

 

Those Scots under 25 won't always be under 25, people get older by the year, even the over 65s will be replaced, and with getting older comes with it wisdom and a better understanding of our surroundings and our political beliefs. Do you think people are unlikely to change their minds.

 

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If it was only 25 year olds I would have to agree with you, but all the way up to 65 there is a majority in favour. Clearly this is not political naivety or a lack of worldly experience being reflected here. The majority of people between 25 and 65, those who are more likely to have come to a political grounding, want independence.

 

Of course some of the 25 year olds who now support independence will change their minds as they mature, but there is nothing to suggest that this would be in anything close to the numbers required to flatten out the rise of indy. As for those more mature voters - if they are for independence in their middle ages, I cannot see many changing as they get older.

 

 

Quote

I agree with you about Sturgeon's hesitance - many people are getting itchy feet.

There is another factor that I have mentioned before, though I think on another thread. 

 

There are an awful lot of Baby Boomers (The clue is in the name). Even if the 65 to 85 year olds were replaced by the demographic following them, who as a result of being older became more conservative/ anti-independence in the same proportion as the Boomers, there would still be a large amount less of them. 

The birth rate declined - simple as that. 

 

The idea that people over 65 suddenly acquire wisdom that they did not have in their 40s and 50s doesn't bear scrutiny. In many cases they simply acquire senility. 

 

Recent political events suggest to me, that as a Nation we are teetering on the verge of Senile Dementia, whatever age we are individually.

 

No itchy feet for me RR, play it canny, the day will inevitably come if we keep getting taken for granted.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Nigel Garvie

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 

 

There is another factor that I have mentioned before, though I think on another thread. 

 

There are an awful lot of Baby Boomers (The clue is in the name). Even if the 65 to 85 year olds were replaced by the demographic following them, who as a result of being older became more conservative/ anti-independence in the same proportion as the Boomers, there would still be a large amount less of them. 

The birth rate declined - simple as that. 

 

The idea that people over 65 suddenly acquire wisdom that they did not have in their 40s and 50s doesn't bear scrutiny. In many cases they simply acquire senility. 

 

Recent political events suggest to me, that as a Nation we are teetering on the verge of Senile Dementia, whatever age we are individually.

 

No itchy feet for me RR, play it canny, the day will inevitably come if we keep getting taken for granted.

I am in two minds about it, Nigel - I can see the wisdom of remaining patient and hoping that the UK government will continue to shoot itself in the foot (and God knows, they show no sign of changing tack there) but I am also concerned that Vogie may be right, and that when it comes to the crunch, the soft middle leans in the wrong direction.

 

Good news yesterday, however, in that the Scottish parliament voted to extend the voting franchise for all Scottish elections and referenda to include 16 year olds, refugees, foreign nationals with leave to remain in the country and prisoners serving sentences of less than 1 year. The foreign nationals were massively in favour of the union in 2014 but I think much of that love has been lost in subsequent years.

[RuamRudy]

And once again, another poll and another nail in the UK's coffin. 

 

Poll data.

 

This time a YouGov poll places No slightly ahead of Yes (50.5% against 49.5% when 'don't knows') are removed, but worth bearing in mind that the poll excluded 16 & 17 year olds, who will get a vote in indyref2, and it also asked a non-standard question. 

 

An interesting point I picked up on is that while 16% of those who voted Yes in 2014 have switched to No, 19% of those who voted No now back Yes.

 

 

[Kwasaki]

" UK's coffin " is that the latest saying for the deposed remainers.

[Airbagwill]

10 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

" UK's coffin " is that the latest saying for the deposed remainers.

clearly not - you don't seem to understand the sentence.

[RuamRudy]

40 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

" UK's coffin " is that the latest saying for the deposed remainers.

I am not sure if English is your first language so apologies if it is, (and if it is not, then I take my hat off to you because I can only speak one other language but would never have the courage to debate in it online) but a 'nail in one's coffin' is a common UK English idiom to infer a blow against one's mortality. Also, deposed means ususurped or dethroned. Remainers have not been in the driving seat since Cameron stepped down. 

[Kwasaki]

38 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

clearly not - you don't seem to understand the sentence.

As for Scotland I don't care what they do, if anyone is going to shoot themselves in the foot it will be them.

I do understand old English laws though still on the books and it's a shame Scotland has a woman leader, if it were a man Boris could kill him with a Crossbow bolt. 555

[melvinmelvin]

49 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am not sure if English is your first language so apologies if it is, (and if it is not, then I take my hat off to you because I can only speak one other language but would never have the courage to debate in it online) but a 'nail in one's coffin' is a common UK English idiom to infer a blow against one's mortality. Also, deposed means ususurped or dethroned. Remainers have not been in the driving seat since Cameron stepped down. 

 

common idiom in many languages,

swedish, german, afrikaans, norwegian, dutch, (spanish - a tiny bit off), and a host of others I'd assume

 

pretty standard phrase that one

[Airbagwill]

10 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

As for Scotland I don't care what they do, if anyone is going to shoot themselves in the foot it will be them.

I do understand old English laws though still on the books and it's a shame Scotland has a woman leader, if it were a man Boris could kill him with a Crossbow bolt. 555

Your comment is in no way connected to one you quoted of mine. Your thinking on this topic is muddled to say the least

[Airbagwill]

10 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

do understand old English laws though still on the books

Really? What laws are those?

Do you realise too that England and Scotland have different legal systems?

 

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Really? What laws are those?

Do you realise too that England and Scotland have different legal systems?

 

English outdated laws that haven't been taken of the books just as the one I said Boris could do. 

And yes there some differences in Scots law so what. 

[evadgib]

25 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

English outdated laws that haven't been taken of the books just as the one I said Boris could do. 

And yes there some differences in Scots law so what. 

If you're ???????????????????????????? any stick will do.

[Kwasaki]

26 minutes ago, evadgib said:

If you're ???????????????????????????? any stick will do.

Jokes apart I just think it would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland & Wales went along with backing England and be a UK. 

[evadgib]

11 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Jokes apart I just think it would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland & Wales went along with backing England and be a UK. 

Agreed. It's worked well enough for 300+ years.

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

Jokes apart I just think it would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland & Wales went along with backing England and be a UK. 

I certainly favour a free Scotland, however a loose federation of Nations where certain matters of mutual interest could be agreed and acted on together for the benefit of all, without any nation losing their independance, would be acceptable to me pro tem. 

Surprising that Europe haven't adopted this idea really..........oh, wait a moment. 

 

The way you put your statement, clearly shows your viewpoint:- "It would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland & Wales went along with backing England and be a UK."

This would have been more likely to produce positive responses:-  "It would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland, Wales & England worked together as respected partners."  

 

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Agreed. It's worked well enough for 300+ years.

There were times, the Victorian era in particular, when Scotland supplied well beyond their share of cannon fodder for the Empire. For example in India every 3rd Brit was a Scot, so I have read. It is the nature of things that times change, and what worked well in the past (For some anyway) is not always the best option for the future. Of all the former colonies which one has run back begging to be re-admitted to the Empire? 

[Kwasaki]

41 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I certainly favour a free Scotland, however a loose federation of Nations where certain matters of mutual interest could be agreed and acted on together for the benefit of all, without any nation losing their independance, would be acceptable to me pro tem. 

Surprising that Europe haven't adopted this idea really..........oh, wait a moment. 

 

The way you put your statement, clearly shows your viewpoint:- "It would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland & Wales went along with backing England and be a UK."

This would have been more likely to produce positive responses:-  "It would be better if Scotland,  Northern Ireland, Wales & England worked together as respected partners."  

 

There were times, the Victorian era in particular, when Scotland supplied well beyond their share of cannon fodder for the Empire. For example in India every 3rd Brit was a Scot, so I have read. It is the nature of things that times change, and what worked well in the past (For some anyway) is not always the best option for the future. Of all the former colonies which one has run back begging to be re-admitted to the Empire? 

I respect your post. 

A United Kingdom is what I see as a good future now we are out of the mafia club,  maybe Scotland see's England as the mafia. ????

[evadgib]

38 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

I respect your post. 

A United Kingdom is what I see as a good future now we are out of the mafia club,  maybe Scotland see's England as the mafia. ????

???????????????????????????? at 55M dwarfs the others whether @Nigel Garvie likes it or not (yet lacks it's own Parliament!) but I can understand anyone getting the hump re your wording.

 

As for anyone 'running back and begging to be re-admitted';

 

a) There is no longer a Empire to be re-admitted into, 

 

b  ) The Commonwealth currently stands at 54 countries, with several re-admissions inc the Maldives among them. 

 

c) HM heads the Commonwealth and is head of state in 16 member states.

 

This to me blows his statement out of the water.

 

HTH

Edited February 29, 2020 by evadgib