Poland could exit EU over judicial reform clash - top Polish court

[webfact]

Poland could exit EU over judicial reform clash - top Polish court

 

FILE PHOTO: People gather in front of the Presidential Palace during the "Chain of lights" protest against judicial overhaul in Warsaw, Poland July 26, 2018. REUTERS/Kacper Pempel/File Photo

 

WARSAW (Reuters) - Poland could end up leaving the European Union because of plans by the ruling nationalists that would allow judges to be fired if they question the legitimacy of the government's judicial reforms, the Supreme Court said on Tuesday.

 

The court said the plans could contravene European law and exacerbate existing tensions between Brussels and Poland's ruling Law and Justice party (PiS).

 

"Contradictions between Polish law and EU law ... will in all likelihood lead to an intervention by the EU institutions regarding an infringement of the EU treaties, and in the longer perspective (will lead to) the need to leave the European Union," Poland's Supreme Court said in a statement.

 

The EU has accused PiS of politicizing the judiciary since the party swept to power in 2015. Pis says its reforms are necessary to make the court system more efficient.

 

Under draft legislation now before parliament, PiS aims to prevent judges from ruling that that peers, nominated by a panel appointed by the party, are not independent.

 

"The Commission has a very clear position on protecting the judiciary from political interference," European Commission spokesman Christian Wigand told Reuters in response to the Supreme Court statement.

 

"The Commission continues to follow the situation closely. We remain ready and available to discuss with the Polish authorities ways forward to resolving the issues at hand."

 

The EU had said on Monday it would investigate whether the draft law undermines judicial independence.

 

The Supreme Court statement also said the proposed bill was "evidently" designed to allow President Andrzej Duda, an ally of PiS, to pick a new head of the court before a presidential election expected in May.

 

The current head of the Supreme Court, Malgorzata Gersdorf, is due to stand down in April. She was appointed before PiS came to power and has been openly critical of the party's reforms.

 

Gersdorf has called a meeting of all judges for March 17 so they can participate in the process of choosing the next head of the Supreme Court, court spokesman Michal Laskowski told a news conference on Tuesday.

 

Moves by Hungary and Poland to bring their courts and media under tighter state control have led the European Commission, the EU's executive arm, to begin rule-of-law investigations that could in theory lead to a suspension of their EU voting rights.

 

Brussels is considering tying adherence to the rule of law and democratic standards with access to EU budget funds.

 

Poland joined the EU in 2004 and public support for membership remains strong, despite the tussles between Brussels and PiS. Poland is a major beneficiary of EU funds for its farmers and infrastructure projects.

 

There is no mechanism for the EU to expel a member state. So far only Britain has chosen to leave the bloc, following a referendum in 2016. It is expected to exit the EU next month.

 

(Reporting by Alicja Ptak in Warsaw; Jonas Ekblom in Brussels, Writing by Joanna Plucinska; Editing by Gareth Jones)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2019-12-18

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[daveAustin]

Makes me cringe the EU harping on about democracy. About the only other country to have the stones to stand up to it all. Yo, Polexit, you know it makes sense. 

[TopDeadSenter]

Seems the dam has broken. Next Poland, then Italy? France? Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

[URMySunshine]

They can join GB on the naughty step !

[nauseus]

B  b  but ...remainers say EU nations did not lose their sovereignty.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Seems the dam has broken. Next Poland, then Italy? France? Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

 

28 minutes ago, URMySunshine said:

They can join GB on the naughty step !

If let us say about half a dozen nations were to leave, we (they) could form a trading bloc within Europe. No ambitions to regulate each other, or become any sort of united federal state, just a bloc to encourage free trade,

 

We could call it - I don't know - "The Common Market"?

[JonnyF]

The EU has done remarkably well to keep this kind of discontent swept under the rug. But they can't do it forever.

 

Good Luck Poland but it won't be easy. We have seen that once the EU has their tentacles wrapped around your neck they can be very reluctant to let go. If you insist, they try to strangle you.

[URMySunshine]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The EU has done remarkably well to keep this kind of discontent swept under the rug. But they can't do it forever.

 

Good Luck Poland but it won't be easy. We have seen that once the EU has their tentacles wrapped around your neck they can be very reluctant to let go. If you insist, they try to strangle you.

Though we have pushed the door wide open. 

[RichardColeman]

2 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Seems the dam has broken. Next Poland, then Italy? France? Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

In all fairness, they would probably let Italy and it's debt go without a fight

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

In all fairness, they would probably let Italy and it's debt go without a fight

The EU doesn't seem to worry about debt. But Italy leaving would effectively kill the EU.

[stevenl]

25 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

The EU has done remarkably well to keep this kind of discontent swept under the rug. But they can't do it forever.

 

Good Luck Poland but it won't be easy. We have seen that once the EU has their tentacles wrapped around your neck they can be very reluctant to let go. If you insist, they try to strangle you.

If Poland doesn't meet the requirements for an independent judiciary, the EU should and will be happy to let them go.

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, URMySunshine said:

Though we have pushed the door wide open. 

No connection at all between the issues.

[Dumbastheycome]

It is only me that finds  some validity in the EU's concerns? Those  from the UK who are interpreting this news as some justification for their own stance may be overlooking the concerns re' Poland.

That being the partizan politicizing of the judicial system in contravention of EU convention and probably Polish public  interest noting that the current head of  the Supreme  Court who is critical of the ruling  party is to be replaced by political appointment  just  prior to an election. Sounds  familiar in many ways to a couple of places in the world where an independent  judiciary has become a myth.

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

It is only me that finds  some validity in the EU's concerns? Those  from the UK who are interpreting this news as some justification for their own stance may be overlooking the concerns re' Poland.

That being the partizan politicizing of the judicial system in contravention of EU convention and probably Polish public  interest noting that the current head of  the Supreme  Court who is critical of the ruling  party is to be replaced by political appointment  just  prior to an election. Sounds  familiar in many ways to a couple of places in the world where an independent  judiciary has become a myth.

You're far from the only one, just as many have concerns over the direction of Hungary and, in a different way, Italy.

[TopDeadSenter]

53 minutes ago, JAG said:

 

If let us say about half a dozen nations were to leave, we (they) could form a trading bloc within Europe. No ambitions to regulate each other, or become any sort of united federal state, just a bloc to encourage free trade,

 

We could call it - I don't know - "The Common Market"?

Great idea. Kind of like the EU but no common army, no industrial scale forced 3rd world immigration, no silly bendy banana rules and metric weight adoption, just a simple and benevolent trading bloc. Genius!

[Dumbastheycome]

6 minutes ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Great idea. Kind of like the EU but no common army, no industrial scale forced 3rd world immigration, no silly bendy banana rules and metric weight adoption, just a simple and benevolent trading bloc. Genius!

So would that be  like  encouraging the  big guys to go back to  bullying the little  guys and  jumping on their  school lunch? Benevolence in the sandpit ?

[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Seems the dam has broken. Next Poland, then Italy? France? Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

This article is not about Poland wishing to quit EU,

but about EU thinking to banish Poland... Very different! 

 

I read here many times how UK wish to see other countries to follow them, but no other country will make this mistake... 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Pattaya46

[Krataiboy]

45 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

So would that be  like  encouraging the  big guys to go back to  bullying the little  guys and  jumping on their  school lunch? Benevolence in the sandpit ?

Arguably preferable to being bullied by a bunch unelected EU bureaucrats working to a globalist agenda.

[URMySunshine]

1 hour ago, RichardColeman said:

In all fairness, they would probably let Italy and it's debt go without a fight

Push out the accession countries as well + Greece and we might rejoin before the year end as a sensible equal countries agreement with no freedom of movement or federation nonsense which would have been in all our interests. Too late though for reform now. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by URMySunshine

[hotchilli]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

We could call it - I don't know - "The Common Market"?

That's how it all started decades ago, until the "monster" grew to what it is today, a total mess!

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

It is only me that finds  some validity in the EU's concerns? Those  from the UK who are interpreting this news as some justification for their own stance may be overlooking the concerns re' Poland.

That being the partizan politicizing of the judicial system in contravention of EU convention and probably Polish public  interest noting that the current head of  the Supreme  Court who is critical of the ruling  party is to be replaced by political appointment  just  prior to an election. Sounds  familiar in many ways to a couple of places in the world where an independent  judiciary has become a myth.

 

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

You're far from the only one, just as many have concerns over the direction of Hungary and, in a different way, Italy.

Agreed.

There is a sad and desperate attempt by brexiteers to turn this into an "EU stole our sovereignty" issue. You would have to be terminally brain dead to buy this complete distortion.

 

We are talking about countries which try to silence the judiciary in order to have what is essentially a dictatorship (Boris plans to do the same, and the US already have a bent politicised Supreme Court in place). Furthermore Poland is ruled by a Neo-facist party with strong support from the Catholic Church, a bit like Ireland was for a long time (The religious bit anyway).  Iran has little to teach us in the west about Theocracy, watch the evangelicals licking Trumps jackboots.

 

The EU has simply said that to be part of the EU, you should be a democracy, why is that unreasonable.

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

B  b  but ...remainers say EU nations did not lose their sovereignty.

 

Interesting point.

 

If you read about how the EU operates, in theory, national sovereign state laws are not and cannot be overruled by EU law or an EU court per-se. 

 

So the way the Brussels bureaucrats get around it is the threaten sanctions for non compliance with the EU "recommendations". Linking compliance in this case to grants from the EU budget. Do as we say or no cash for you - pretty straight forward coercion and blackmail!

 

Should the new EU leader get her way, and get the EU Army, centralized financial budgets and accounting, those national laws may become even more threatened. Money supply could be turned off; force could be used. Countries outside the Euro will have to adopt it under the centralized budget.

 

Poland, Hungary and a few others might want to remember it's not so long ago they through off a previous yoke.

[Baerboxer]

3 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 

Agreed.

There is a sad and desperate attempt by brexiteers to turn this into an "EU stole our sovereignty" issue. You would have to be terminally brain dead to buy this complete distortion.

 

We are talking about countries which try to silence the judiciary in order to have what is essentially a dictatorship (Boris plans to do the same, and the US already have a bent politicised Supreme Court in place). Furthermore Poland is ruled by a Neo-facist party with strong support from the Catholic Church, a bit like Ireland was for a long time (The religious bit anyway).  Iran has little to teach us in the west about Theocracy, watch the evangelicals licking Trumps jackboots.

 

The EU has simply said that to be part of the EU, you should be a democracy, why is that unreasonable.

"The EU has simply said that to be part of the EU, you should be a democracy, why is that unreasonable."

 

Not unreasonable at all; in fact highly desirable.

 

Unfortunately the EU itself isn't democratic. 

 

 

[Hannuman]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

 

If let us say about half a dozen nations were to leave, we (they) could form a trading bloc within Europe. No ambitions to regulate each other, or become any sort of united federal state, just a bloc to encourage free trade,

 

We could call it - I don't know - "The Common Market"?

What an original idea ! They could even use the term 'Benelux Zollverein '

Just 99 years too late . The concept was initiated shortly after WW1 ,though not implemented on the grander scale until post WW2 . Did you never buy Benelux derailleurs and similar components for your Claude Butler, Dawes,Viking, Holdsworth ,etc in the 1950's ? 

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

This article is not about Poland wishing to quit EU,

but about EU thinking to banish Poland... Very different! 

 

I read here many times how UK wish to see other countries to follow them, but no other country will make this mistake... 

 

Only Germany is capable of emulating the UK in leaving the EU. All the others are to dependent on EU benefits.

[trainman34014]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

This article is not about Poland wishing to quit EU,

but about EU thinking to banish Poland... Very different! 

 

I read here many times how UK wish to see other countries to follow them, but no other country will make this mistake... 

No; they would rather make the mistake of staying !

[blazes]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Interesting point.

 

If you read about how the EU operates, in theory, national sovereign state laws are not and cannot be overruled by EU law or an EU court per-se. 

 

So the way the Brussels bureaucrats get around it is the threaten sanctions for non compliance with the EU "recommendations". Linking compliance in this case to grants from the EU budget. Do as we say or no cash for you - pretty straight forward coercion and blackmail!

 

 

I think old Joe Biden would understand this sort of behaviour....

[puck2]

2 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

Arguably preferable to being bullied by a bunch unelected EU bureaucrats working to a globalist agenda.

"unelected" ???

Before you write such a nonsense, try to inform yourself about the institution/system "EU".

To help you:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#European_Parliament

 

In contrast to the 3rd-world country system of GB and USA  in the EU there is no (undemocratic) majority voting system, but a proportional representation. !

 

And you try to defend the undemocratic and racist policy of the PIS(s) Party of Poland?  555 .

 

The ruling Polish nationalists "bully" the EU, not vice versa, although taking out the biggest part of money distributed by the EU to Poland for infrastructure and agriculture. Between 2014 and 2020 Poland receives 115 billions (I repeat: billion) Euros from the EU. 

 

Do you ever think they would like to leave the EU? Go on dreaming.

 

And to put a little bit of knowledge in the small brains of some "English EU-experts": If Poland acts against the (democratic)  EU law, it only can be punished by money support - aching very much for the biggest EU-money-receiver -, but cannot be excluded by the EU. If Poland would like to leave the EU, it must do it by itself - like GB.

[puck2]

2 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Only Germany is capable of emulating the UK in leaving the EU. All the others are to dependent on EU benefits.

 My I correct you: (although in German language it's easy to understand which country pays into the EU budget(red) and which country receives EU-money(yellow).

The German word Milliarden is "billions" in English language.

 

from 2018

Edited December 18, 2019 by puck2

[Thingamabob]

The EU, as it is now called, is collapsing from the inside. Good riddance to a bunch of lying, cheating Brussels bureaucrats.