Pro lockdown advocates, what's your solution for unemployment, homeless and no food?

[steelepulse]

I appreciate a social and sensible debate about covid.  We've all heard from various talking heads about how things need to be locked down to control this raging virus that the cdc says is at .26 percent ifr.  We also know from reading various sources that covid attacks those with weak immune systems and healthy people have not too many issues.

 

I would love to hear your plans on how to feed unemployed people, how you plan to pay their rent, how you are going to deal with suicides due to unemployment, no food, no housing and all the wonderful things that go along with people experiencing what they are currently dealing with at the moment.

 

The floor is yours.

 

 

[chessman]

42 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

I appreciate a social and sensible debate about covid.

Then why stack your post with leading questions and ask them in such a disingenuous way?
 

you keep trotting out the same stuff, like an angry red-faced man shouting at the world because nobody is listening and he’s not getting his way. The issue is both a health crisis and an economic one. You have to balance the two things. Constantly downplaying the virus means that only people on the very fringe will be listening to you. 

[Why Me]

16 minutes ago, chessman said:

Then why stack your post with leading questions and ask them in such a disingenuous way?
 

you keep trotting out the same stuff, like an angry red-faced man shouting at the world because nobody is listening and he’s not getting his way. The issue is both a health crisis and an economic one. You have to balance the two things. Constantly downplaying the virus means that only people on the very fringe will be listening to you. 

chessman checkmates.

 

Yep, it's not an either-or situation. Lockdown till the curve is flattened, open up a bit, sniff the air, if it's good unlock a bit more, if not scurry back again, ... At the same time open up low-risk businesses first, then get braver, and on and on.

 

Thailand's actually a good example.

[riclag]

Thanks OP for the topic!

 

 

I would like to see therapeutics,vaccines and a cure! 

In the meantime this virus is disabling life for many people!

Like any disability you deal with it and make the best of the circumstances.

 

People have to get back to life with precautions! Hygeine and guidelines should be practice if possible!

Everybody should take care of themselves by making a living.

Some people are at risk more than others because of age ,medical conditions . These individuals need to take less risks and get financial assistance 

Its only my opinion! I'm not a doctor,scientist or a politician.

Get busy livin or get busy dyin!

 

[geriatrickid]

You have a political agenda that also includes your anti vaccination position. As such, you  have no interest in discussion of the Covid19  crisis. This is just another opportunity for you to push your political and social views. Yours is a US centric position.  

 

This disease is not about the death rate, and never has been. It is about the cost of the infection itself.  Covid 19 fills hospital beds and ICUs and it leaves large numbers of patients with long term damage. Because it is a highly infectious and complex illness, it requires hospitals to follow specific protocols and to divert resources and personnel that in turn  necessitates the suspension of activities that put vulnerable patients at risk. Because of its ability to cause physical harm, if left unchecked it will disrupt the economy and cause  shutdowns that would last far longer and be more extensive than the limited actions that were enacted to slow the spread of the disease. 

 

No one who  has understood and agreed with the limited measures taken in respect to the social distancing required, discounts the impact that such measures will have on society. The problems you are referring to are in large part specific to the USA economy. Other developed countries have taken exceptional measures to care for their general population and we do not see such problems in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Portugal, France etc.  

 

Yes, there are unemployed people, but there are now also new job opportunities. Yes some businesses  have  gone bankrupt. Many of them were already in serious trouble and it was only a question of time for some of them.  People were not shopping at malls or big box stores long before Covid19. The economy is changing and we will adapt.   

 

However, I do note that  Trump has been emphasizing that there will be a rash of suicides due to the economic situation. This is his new talking point which you have  obviously lapped up and now regurgitate for us here.  Please share with us the data in respect to this explosion of death. 

Edited June 28, 2020 by geriatrickid

[yuyiinthesky]

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You have a political agenda that also includes your anti vaccination position. As such, you  have no interest in discussion of the Covid19  crisis. This is just another opportunity for you to push your political and social views. Yours is a US centric position.  

You had also accused me of having a political agenda, but when asked to explain, you did not do so.

 

Same with your superior education, only bragging but no details.

 

May be it‘s you having the political agenda?

 

4 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Yes, there are unemployed people, but there are now also new job opportunities. Yes some businesses  have  gone bankrupt. Many of them were already in serious trouble and it was only a question of time for some of them.

Looking around in Thailand, or Cambodia, Or Vietnam, I see not much costs for Covid treatments, there were not many patients. 
 

However there were very many having had jobs before the lockdowns, being able to provide for their families, and now, no more job, no more income, business closed forever. Why do you belittle them as having „already been In serious trouble“? They were not, they worked, and had an income, and only the lockdowns stopped it.

I know many good people, which are in the <deleted> now, while their business was growing before. Now the cash reserves are gone, the rent continued, the costs continued, the income not. 

 

We know you do not have this problem yourself, and seem to lack empathy for this poor people. This is a real problem which needs to get solved, and quickly. At least here in Thailand and around, they are the main victims of the pandemic. 
 

And about your US agenda, may be teach them to stop eating junk food, and to move their bottom a little more, work on loosing some fat and the diseases obesity causes. That could bring the danger of the virus easily down to normal levels, like in Europe, where it is almost only the ones older that 65 years which are affected. Just because they enjoy a very unhealthy lifestyle in the US doesn’t mean the whole world is doomed.

 

[steelepulse]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You have a political agenda that also includes your anti vaccination position. As such, you  have no interest in discussion of the Covid19  crisis. This is just another opportunity for you to push your political and social views. Yours is a US centric position.  

 

This disease is not about the death rate, and never has been. It is about the cost of the infection itself.  Covid 19 fills hospital beds and ICUs and it leaves large numbers of patients with long term damage. Because it is a highly infectious and complex illness, it requires hospitals to follow specific protocols and to divert resources and personnel that in turn  necessitates the suspension of activities that put vulnerable patients at risk. Because of its ability to cause physical harm, if left unchecked it will disrupt the economy and cause  shutdowns that would last far longer and be more extensive than the limited actions that were enacted to slow the spread of the disease. 

 

No one who  has understood and agreed with the limited measures taken in respect to the social distancing required, discounts the impact that such measures will have on society. The problems you are referring to are in large part specific to the USA economy. Other developed countries have taken exceptional measures to care for their general population and we do not see such problems in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Portugal, France etc.  

 

Yes, there are unemployed people, but there are now also new job opportunities. Yes some businesses  have  gone bankrupt. Many of them were already in serious trouble and it was only a question of time for some of them.  People were not shopping at malls or big box stores long before Covid19. The economy is changing and we will adapt.   

 

However, I do note that  Trump has been emphasizing that there will be a rash of suicides due to the economic situation. This is his new talking point which you have  obviously lapped up and now regurgitate for us here.  Please share with us the data in respect to this explosion of death. 

I have no political agenda and I am not anti vacc.  

 

Now, let's get back to your solution.

[steelepulse]

9 hours ago, chessman said:

Then why stack your post with leading questions and ask them in such a disingenuous way?
 

you keep trotting out the same stuff, like an angry red-faced man shouting at the world because nobody is listening and he’s not getting his way. The issue is both a health crisis and an economic one. You have to balance the two things. Constantly downplaying the virus means that only people on the very fringe will be listening to you. 

What's your solution?  Are you going to hand over all your money to help people that are out of work and now homeless?

 

Stack the post?  There's no stacking the post, just pointing out the actual facts of ifr and how if you are healthy with a good immune system this doesn't affect a normal person.

 

What's your solution?

Edited June 29, 2020 by steelepulse

[steelepulse]

8 hours ago, Why Me said:

chessman checkmates.

 

Yep, it's not an either-or situation. Lockdown till the curve is flattened, open up a bit, sniff the air, if it's good unlock a bit more, if not scurry back again, ... At the same time open up low-risk businesses first, then get braver, and on and on.

 

Thailand's actually a good example.

Correct, it's not an either or, but getting back to the question, how do you propose to take care of the millions that have no money, no food, and will be kicked out of wherever they are living?  Jobs aren't instantly going to come back and by keeping everything partially open and not open, many people will take a long time to find employment.  In the meantime, bills need to be paid.  

 

Taking Thailand for example, who is going to take care of these people, certainly not the government.

[riclag]

50 minutes ago, steelepulse said:

What's your solution?  Are you going to hand over all your money to help people that are out of work and now homeless?

 

Stack the post?  There's no stacking the post, just pointing out the actual facts of ifr and how if you are healthy with a good immune system this doesn't affect a normal person.

 

What's your solution?

How many discussions  about money and solutions  have there been about economies and health in rebounding from this   ! 

 

Seems to me you bring up a good point.

[spidermike007]

The only people who are advocating the extension of the lockdown here are government workers on a full salary, or ex-pats with a fat pension. 

[AndyAndyAndy]

This is how me and 300 other people spent yesterdays afternoon. 600 Km from my home, not a single mask in sight, alcohol served... . I think it's pretty much like it was before.

 

 

[geriatrickid]

2 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

You had also accused me of having a political agenda, but when asked to explain, you did not do so.

 

Same with your superior education, only bragging but no details.

 

May be it‘s you having the political agenda?

 

Looking around in Thailand, or Cambodia, Or Vietnam, I see not much costs for Covid treatments, there were not many patients. 
 

However there were very many having had jobs before the lockdowns, being able to provide for their families, and now, no more job, no more income, business closed forever. Why do you belittle them as having „already been In serious trouble“? They were not, they worked, and had an income, and only the lockdowns stopped it.

I know many good people, which are in the <deleted> now, while their business was growing before. Now the cash reserves are gone, the rent continued, the costs continued, the income not. 

 

We know you do not have this problem yourself, and seem to lack empathy for this poor people. This is a real problem which needs to get solved, and quickly. At least here in Thailand and around, they are the main victims of the pandemic. 
 

And about your US agenda, may be teach them to stop eating junk food, and to move their bottom a little more, work on loosing some fat and the diseases obesity causes. That could bring the danger of the virus easily down to normal levels, like in Europe, where it is almost only the ones older that 65 years which are affected. Just because they enjoy a very unhealthy lifestyle in the US doesn’t mean the whole world is doomed.

 

Your political agenda is  a mirror image of the Trump talking points.

 

You are showing your insecurity when you use the term "bragging". Previously, you also  assumed I was a pensioner. I am gainfully employed and yes I am educated in the health sciences. I do not discuss my employment because it would allow for some of the crazies in TVF to stalk me much as they did some of the former moderators. 

 

The OP was using a US illustration and referring to economic issues more pronounced in the USA.  In respect to your comment in Thailand, the businesses that were built on solid  economics will weather this crisis. The reality is that people still need food, shelter, clothes and other services. Because some  cheap beer bars and brothels have closed down, does nto mean that the Thai economy is on the ropes. On the contrary, Thailand is well placed for recovery and the cadre of senior officals at the Thai MoF performed quite well delivering on a 3 stage economic support plan.  

 

In early March,  the government provided the money for low interest loans of up to 150 billion baht and a debt moratorium for small businesses by the Government Savings Bank and Government Housing Bank, facilitated/expedited commercial bank loans, and provided a credit line with low interest for three years from the Social Security Fund. It provided a tax deduction to small businesses, refunded electricity usage deposits and unilaterally reduced the rents of tenants of state properties.

 

The second stage saw the government give direct assistance to 10,000,000+ Thais negatively affected by the crisis. Emergency  payments of 5,000 baht per month for six months for those not covered  under the SSF  are available.  Thais who are able to claim under the SSF will received an increased unemployment compensation benefit of up to 62% of their daily wages for a period of 3 months. The government has made available additional funding for  state supported loans, allowed the deferral of corporate taxes and lifted the import duties on products necessary for the fight against the infection.

 

In early April, the government initiated additional relief worth 1.9 trillion baht to support the domestic economy and to stabilize the financial system. Almost 1/2 this amount is being spent directly on economic support and healthcare. This includes 400 billion baht for regional economic support, and 600 billion baht for targeted assistance for the  agricultural sector and supplemental healthcare assistance.

 

Thailand has been doing an excellent job on its economic front, and IMO significantly better than the mismanaged USA.

[Berkshire]

1 hour ago, steelepulse said:

What's your solution?  Are you going to hand over all your money to help people that are out of work and now homeless?

 

Stack the post?  There's no stacking the post, just pointing out the actual facts of ifr and how if you are healthy with a good immune system this doesn't affect a normal person.

 

What's your solution?

I haven't seen too many of these "pro-lockdown" people that you speak of.  It's either you listen to what the medical professionals are saying or you don't.  You keep baiting people to respond to this absurd question, how about you answering one:  What would have been your solution to the pandemic in the beginning?  Just ignore it and hope it goes away?  How many millions dead is acceptable to you?  What's YOUR solution? 

[geriatrickid]

16 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

The only people who are advocating the extension of the lockdown here are government workers on a full salary, or ex-pats with a fat pension. 

I am not a government worker. My pay was reduced 7% to ensure that my employer did not have to eliminate any  jobs. I have been working  12 hour+ days, 6 days a week.  You will find that what I describe is the norm in much of the developed world. Despite the shutdown of some sectors, much of the economy continued as it was deemed an essential service. The fact that you did not see the workers at the food processing plants, or on the farms, or working from home, or reporting to work in health care facilities or at essential manufacturing facilities etc. does not mean they were not working. Yes, some restaurants, beer bars, whore houses and low tech service trade outlets have been negatively impacted. Their economic impact pales in comparison to the financial services workers of Thailand who kept working throughout the crisis bringing in valuable foreign income.

 

Everyone has been hit. We will recover. The national infrastructure has not been damaged.

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, steelepulse said:

Correct, it's not an either or, but getting back to the question, how do you propose to take care of the millions that have no money, no food, and will be kicked out of wherever they are living?  Jobs aren't instantly going to come back and by keeping everything partially open and not open, many people will take a long time to find employment.  In the meantime, bills need to be paid.  

 

Taking Thailand for example, who is going to take care of these people, certainly not the government.

Thailand has done an impressive world leading job of taking care of its people. Because you are not aware of what was done, doesn't mean nothing was done. 

[geriatrickid]

1 hour ago, steelepulse said:

I have no political agenda and I am not anti vacc.  

 

Now, let's get back to your solution.

Your position is a regurgitation of trump talking points. 

 

Need a reminder? Go read your character assassination of Dr. Fauci as it is right out of the Trump campaign talking points.

 

Your snide comment in respect to the bogeyman 'pro-vaxxers' suggests otherwise.

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1169924-who-warns-of-oxygen-shortage-as-covid-cases-set-to-top-10-mln/?do=findComment&comment=15553490

 

No one is pro-lockdown. We would all love to have things as they were. Unfortunately, that is not possible. I get it. You are scared. You do not understand, You want things as they were. Well, it is not going to happen. The state governors of Texas, Georgia and Florida  had the same political mindset as you and opened up their states and now they have hospitals at capacity  and tens of thousands of new cases being discovered everyday  with people panicking because they were told this was nothing,  Now they are finding out that isn't the case. Those tens of thousands of people will not be able to work for some time and it is going to cause more economic damage over time than had some basic social distancing measures remained in place for a few more weeks.  New York and New Jersey managed to do that. Much of Canada has done that and Canada is reopening.  It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition.

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Your political agenda is  a mirror image of the Trump talking points.

There you go, who? Trump? I don’t really give a rats bottom about him, as you can easily see if you look at my posts here. 
 

But even Trump can say something sometimes which overlaps with what I’m saying, sure. But using that to accusing me, or other posters here, of having an agenda to promote Trump is a malicious imputation. Do you really need such tactics?

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

You are showing your insecurity when you use the term "bragging". Previously, you also  assumed I was a pensioner. I am gainfully employed and yes I am educated in the health sciences. I do not discuss my employment

It is absolutely ok to not talk about your employment. I wouldn‘t too. 
 

However you were claiming that you know better than other posters because you have a superior education. But then you refuse to specify what education. Imputing insecurity because I dare to ask that you follow up on this is is not helping. It is however typical for your posts, as I mentioned previously, to mix half-truths with insults, and then ramble on. 
 

So what is it, your education?

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

No one is pro-lockdown. We would all love to have things as they were. Unfortunately, that is not possible. I get it. You are scared. You do not understand, You want things as they were. Well, it is not going to happen.

Yet you look away when countries are discussed which achieved better results that Thailand and all lockdown countries, without a Thai style lockdown. The clear proof that it is indeed possible.

 

Looks to me as if you‘re the one so scared that you cannot think anymore, like so many. No surprise, my head starts to spin too if I listen to CNN for a while. 
 

Take a deep breath now, and discuss the question the OP posted, or go bickering elsewhere.

[yuyiinthesky]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The only people who are advocating the extension of the lockdown here are government workers on a full salary, or ex-pats with a fat pension. 

Indeed, that is very true, at least for Thailand.

[bodga]

12 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

it leaves large numbers of patients with long term damage

Does  it? what  percentage  of  those  admitted  to hospital have long  term problems?

[brain150]

If you get your information from the BBC, CNN or The NATION ????

then you could actually believe that there is a Pandemic going on.

 

If you bother to look at the real Science that is available [... or not !]

then you get a different picture.

If you listen to Doctors and Scientists that actually try to figure out what's going on

instead of the "experts" that are the new Superstars then Covid-19 is nothing "special"

compared to any other sicknesses like Influenza in terms of mortality rate or number of cases.

 

If you look at the [criminal] record of the WHO then it gets outright scary.

Swineflu, Birdflu, Ebola - they have been wrong every single time and it is proven that

these events were manipulated by industry interests to sell vaccines and other financial interests.

 

If you look at Event201, Documentation from The Rockefeller foundation [pdf is attached], The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation,

the World Economic Forum then it becomes very obvious that there are many interests involved in this "event" !

 

The World Economic Forum calls it the "Global Reset" rather openly !

 

If you look at the interests behind the WHO, the UN and the "big players" it gets outright scary !

Interestingly enough most measures taken are AGAINST the results of the latest study of the WHO

for preventing the spread of a Pandemic ! [pdf is attached].

 

It is publicly known that all statistics are heavily "modified" ! World Wide !!!

The numbers from the RKI in Germany show crystal clear that there is no Pandemic !

The numbers were in decline even BEFORE the lock down started !!!

 

The PANDEMIC did not do much harm [compared to other sicknesses !!!}

GOVERNMENT ACTION did !!! ... and it is no way justifiable.

 

The MEDIA did a very good job in promoting a phony Pandemic and scare people to death !

All of this is nothing short of criminal action and crimes against humanity !

 

The economical and psychological effects of this criminal behavior, especially on children

will be a problem for years to come !

 

... if you really look into the available evidence of what is going on right now and where it will lead to,

you could very easily call it "pure evil" !!!

This is the biggest heist in human history !

 

Be aware of what is to come - this will not end well if people don't start to see the truth. 

 

Scenarios for the Future ofTechnology and International Development.pdf WHO Study 2019-eng.pdf

[Berkshire]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The only people who are advocating the extension of the lockdown here are government workers on a full salary, or ex-pats with a fat pension. 

Your logic is rather misleading.  The only people who can order a lockdown are--surprise--government officials.  Truth is, nobody wants a lockdown.  But the government has a mandate to protect its citizens, number one being health and safety.  If they do nothing and a pandemic overwhelms the hospitals, who will you blame? 

 

As for expats with a fat pension, I may resemble that description and I sure as heck didn't want a lockdown.  No one wants a lockdown.  But frankly, I'm glad the Thai government took control and minimized the damage.  Thailand has done a heck of a better job than my home country, the USA. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Berkshire

[JackThompson]

7 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

And about your US agenda, may be teach them to stop eating junk food, and to move their bottom a little more, work on loosing some fat and the diseases obesity causes. That could bring the danger of the virus easily down to normal levels, like in Europe, where it is almost only the ones older that 65 years which are affected. Just because they enjoy a very unhealthy lifestyle in the US doesn’t mean the whole world is doomed.

To spite the bad food, their primary "crime" - in terms of getting sick from covid - is "living to be too old."  This was especially true in Italy.  It's great we have ways to keep people alive into very old age, but that doesn't mean we do not become weaker - thus can be taken-out by a weak virus like this one (which does not affect the young and healthy).

 

The problem we face, is those in power are disproportionately in the "at-risk" group, and they are willing to destroy the lives of everyone else - even the future itself - because they "don't have to worry" about the future, as they won't be alive in it.  If they get another year to breathe air, but everyone else lives in a totalitarian-dystopia afterwords, that's "not their problem."

 

They could just stay home, protect themselves, and let others go on with life - but "That's Not Fair!!!"  So, they want to create a "new normal" which allows THEM to have a bit more freedom to go out now, though it destroys the lives of everyone else.

Just look what this generation did to the successor-generations in the West - sold out their futures and destroyed their homeland for all future generations - all for "cheaper stuff" and "cheaper labor."   The way this virus situation is being handled is more of the same.

[Sundown]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The only people who are advocating the extension of the lockdown here are government workers on a full salary, or ex-pats with a fat pension. 

Spot on. This is everywhere. Also in my country the pro-lockdown "extremists" are all employed for government or are on welfare/ pension. 

 

Not judging, I just say that this is the real human nature: predators, everybody cares only about themselves, no mercy for others' needs. 

[natway09]

If you are talking about Thailand there is now no lockdown.

The Thai Government has attempted & achieved a pretty good balance in my humble opinion of 

care vs economy.

Most factories are up & running. Just about any Thai who worked in a factory can get a job again.

In fact many factories are desperate for workers in Rayong

Feel a bit sad for the imported labour who had no choice to go home & cannot get back.

The bars are open again Wednesday so there is an estimated 5,000 Thais who will be at least able to eat this month.

The virus is unprecedented in modern times & all Governments all around the world are playing a balancing act except for the Americas & the US (& a few others) where they got it totally wrong.

Trump led the "lets get back to work, stuff the peoples health brigade" & I bet he is regretting his cavalier attitude to it all now & the bad examples he set in his silver lined protected job.

The losses to the US might have been less if he had taken the virus more seriously & not condemned 

tens of thousands to a premature death. 

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, natway09 said:

In fact many factories are desperate for workers in Rayong

Feel a bit sad for the imported labour who had no choice to go home & cannot get back.

If the factories have to pay Thai-level wages, Thais get to have decent-paying careers in their own country.  Sounds good to me.  I know many who have to work 1000s of Km away, because cheaper labor is imported into Thailand to do the Very Same Jobs, they do somewhere else.  They get to see their families 1 or 2 times per year, as a result.

Edited June 29, 2020 by JackThompson

[fredwiggy]

29 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

To spite the bad food, their primary "crime" - in terms of getting sick from covid - is "living to be too old."  This was especially true in Italy.  It's great we have ways to keep people alive into very old age, but that doesn't mean we do not become weaker - thus can be taken-out by a weak virus like this one (which does not affect the young and healthy).

 

The problem we face, is those in power are disproportionately in the "at-risk" group, and they are willing to destroy the lives of everyone else - even the future itself - because they "don't have to worry" about the future, as they won't be alive in it.  If they get another year to breathe air, but everyone else lives in a totalitarian-dystopia afterwords, that's "not their problem."

 

They could just stay home, protect themselves, and let others go on with life - but "That's Not Fair!!!"  So, they want to create a "new normal" which allows THEM to have a bit more freedom to go out now, though it destroys the lives of everyone else.

Just look what this generation did to the successor-generations in the West - sold out their futures and destroyed their homeland for all future generations - all for "cheaper stuff" and "cheaper labor."   The way this virus situation is being handled is more of the same.

Just to let you know, young are dying from Covid..................https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/08/young-people-coronavirus-deaths/

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, riclag said:

Hygeine and guidelines should be practice if possible!

Death of all those susceptible is the ultimate answer IMHO.

The quicker they die, the sooner I can go on holiday again.