Britain nears abandoning Brexit trade deal hope - The Telegraph

[Chelseafan]

4 hours ago, AndrewMciver said:

If people could rationalise explain the benefits of Brexit without going to a racist/xenophobic over drive then i'd be more comfortable. Like i say, i've accepted the result, i just would be interested in the area we are going. We seem to have <deleted> of China, USA no trade deal on the horizon, India have said they want more rites for their students in the UK and easier freedom of movement (which will replace eastern Europeans with Indians). So where do we go ?

 

I honestly want this to be a success, but no one can explain the plan. 

 

You forgot the Russians!!

 

[Chelseafan]

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Well, the British electorate never really decided to join what is now the EU, it was thrust upon us so it's difficult to say that we changed our minds. 

 

You're correct that we voted to leave the EU though. So when we leave, we don't abide by the rules of the club any more. Kind of obvious I would have thought.

 

Oh but we do abide by the rules of the club.

 

"To facilitate this, under the Withdrawal Agreement, the UK will continue to apply most EU law during the implementation period as if it was still an EU Member State. Any changes or additions to EU law made during the implementation period will also apply. ^"

 

https://www.mondaq.com/uk/constitutional-administrative-law/892992/how-does-eu-law-apply-in-the-uk-after-brexit

 

[englishoak]

4 hours ago, AndrewMciver said:

If people could rationalise explain the benefits of Brexit without going to a racist/xenophobic over drive then i'd be more comfortable. Like i say, i've accepted the result, i just would be interested in the area we are going. We seem to have <deleted> of China, USA no trade deal on the horizon, India have said they want more rites for their students in the UK and easier freedom of movement (which will replace eastern Europeans with Indians). So where do we go ?

 

I honestly want this to be a success, but no one can explain the plan. 

The plan is to adapt to a changing world as it always has. 

 

I honestly dont know what people expect 6mths before we have even left, its frankly ridiculous to expect or want answers and just shows how weak and unprepared to forge their own futures so many are.. The general population are mostly plebs, havnt a clue about much outside their own interests and think the future comes with a manual and guarantees, its never been like that. Things happen and nations/govs react according to circumstance, varied factors and political ideology whilst going in a chosen general direction. Thats where Brexit is atm, its changed the general direction of the UK, possibly the world and the details arnt important as they will change as time passes. 

 

The world 6mths ago looked nothing like it does now does it ?. Was there a plan for that  ? yup actually, agenda 2021 explains it, the Rockerfeller foundation brainstormed it as one possible future 2 decades ago and the world economic forum also expected  it and produced papers on future plans for the world in general. Most here for sure wouldnt believe any of if yet the papers and documents are all out there and were written by connected foundations and people not some bloke in a pub. Agenda 2030 is the next step and published by the UN, its aims are utterly impossible unless there are millions less on earth.. There is also the ageing population economic timebomb coming all across the developed and semi developed world over the next 40 years, something has to change or chaos will ensue anyway. Simple conclusion is a lot of people have to die to avert collapsing nations and power structures. These topics have general plans but the details come later and adapted as needed as time passes. I prefer to look at the reality of whats probably coming if even half the wishes and wants of people is to happen... it cannot for everyone. The world is not going to be and never has been a utopia and all the solutions are bad for the global population. 

 

That might sound crazy to some and thats fine, they arnt my concern, only my family is and have always had that in mind.

 

Most here im sure have vested interests in Thailand, I commiserate as I used to as well but adjusted my life plan once I realised where Thailand and the world was going a long time ago, planned accordingly and moved everyone to the UK for family security. So for me I care not about the exchange rates but rather the longterm future of being able to keep my family together permanently, Thailand has never been able to offer that security and less so every year.  I would strongly advise anyone in Thailand to plan for the eventuality of an having to leave unless PR a citizen or connected. 

 

As to the Singapore on Thames story its certainly been a general possible aim in the past, Not changing to the Euro was a massive clue wed be leaving at some point along the way.. Financial services has for a long time been our main revenue and hopefully that is about to become supercharged. The rich, business and elite will want somewhere in the west and the UK has more offshore havens than anyone else, we know how to manage it, have stability, exceptional international standing and reputation and we now also have independence.. Another massive hint is our reaction to HK and the open offer to settle in the UK. ALL currency as we know it is going to change, no one doubts that in the financial sectors and is generally accepted, the details are still being decided on how and when but its definitely going digital in part at least. BOE will go crypo from roughly 2025, probably in tandem with some other major currencies, does anyone think all this adding numbers on a keyboard to prop up the global economies is going to last or continue in perpetuity ? I dont. Something must break and break it will 100%, only the timing remains. Do people think the entire globe is going to adjust without serious upheaval in some places ? 

 

There will be more options if we are calling our own shots and flexible to change rather than an ever bickering EU and taking orders. After 2000 years of Europe carving out very different cultures and economies and frequent wars to think it will sit around and sing kum by ya for very long is kidding themselves. Are jobs being created at the speed they are going away ? nope Low birth rates and an ever ageing population guarantees an utterly broken economy long before enough die naturally.The EU will only survive peacefully if it has 50% less in it or 100% more to pay for the aged and that would mean mass immigration and that will in turn bring continental cultural clashes and serious unrest anyway. 

 

Im sorry but i do not see the next 15 years as being anything but painful and tumultuous for the world let alone the UK, we are well overdue for a global conflict of some kind AND a global currency reset, perhaps both. 

 

So nope I do not need or ever want a detailed plan, only the rough direction. It seems people are too weak and scared to deal with lifes surprises, weak men guarantee hard times but hard times make strong men... so its all good in the longrun. Its also possible we will discover free energy or aliens might turn up with a spare planet or another dimension to go colonise.. 

 

 Wow after a reread that sounds wayy out there ..Except theres nothing ive said that cant be backed up with science or appropriate documents, mathematical method or evidence.

 

ahh well If id have come in here a year ago and said the world would be closed down and there would be zero tourists in Thailand by the next year id have sounded just as crazy... 

 

Strange times to be living in and no doubt more to come. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone. 

Peace ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MRToMRT]

On 7/22/2020 at 1:14 AM, ukrules said:

Drastic changes are coming in the next 3-4 weeks.

 

They won't know what hit them but they know it's coming, we left the EU many months ago.

 

With no deal on the table there's a lot more leeway and we won't be playing ball with the French.

 

For example, how many 1000's have washed up in boats since we left the EU? What will they do when we send them all back to France?

 

Forget the immigrants, it’s the French fishermen macron fears most.

 

Posturing on both sides. A deal will be agreed before year end. 

[paddypower]

13 hours ago, nauseus said:

So what is the history lesson here? 

there is no vaccine for a nation that lacks foresight. how many examples do you want?

 

[paddypower]

4 hours ago, englishoak said:

The plan is to adapt to a changing world as it always has. 

 

I honestly dont know what people expect 6mths before we have even left, its frankly ridiculous to expect or want answers and just shows how weak and unprepared to forge their own futures so many are.. The general population are mostly plebs, havnt a clue about much outside their own interests and think the future comes with a manual and guarantees, its never been like that. Things happen and nations/govs react according to circumstance, varied factors and political ideology whilst going in a chosen general direction. Thats where Brexit is atm, its changed the general direction of the UK, possibly the world and the details arnt important as they will change as time passes. 

 

The world 6mths ago looked nothing like it does now does it ?. Was there a plan for that  ? yup actually, agenda 2021 explains it, the Rockerfeller foundation brainstormed it as one possible future 2 decades ago and the world economic forum also expected  it and produced papers on future plans for the world in general. Most here for sure wouldnt believe any of if yet the papers and documents are all out there and were written by connected foundations and people not some bloke in a pub. Agenda 2030 is the next step and published by the UN, its aims are utterly impossible unless there are millions less on earth.. There is also the ageing population economic timebomb coming all across the developed and semi developed world over the next 40 years, something has to change or chaos will ensue anyway. Simple conclusion is a lot of people have to die to avert collapsing nations and power structures. These topics have general plans but the details come later and adapted as needed as time passes. I prefer to look at the reality of whats probably coming if even half the wishes and wants of people is to happen... it cannot for everyone. The world is not going to be and never has been a utopia and all the solutions are bad for the global population. 

 

That might sound crazy to some and thats fine, they arnt my concern, only my family is and have always had that in mind.

 

Most here im sure have vested interests in Thailand, I commiserate as I used to as well but adjusted my life plan once I realised where Thailand and the world was going a long time ago, planned accordingly and moved everyone to the UK for family security. So for me I care not about the exchange rates but rather the longterm future of being able to keep my family together permanently, Thailand has never been able to offer that security and less so every year.  I would strongly advise anyone in Thailand to plan for the eventuality of an having to leave unless PR a citizen or connected. 

 

As to the Singapore on Thames story its certainly been a general possible aim in the past, Not changing to the Euro was a massive clue wed be leaving at some point along the way.. Financial services has for a long time been our main revenue and hopefully that is about to become supercharged. The rich, business and elite will want somewhere in the west and the UK has more offshore havens than anyone else, we know how to manage it, have stability, exceptional international standing and reputation and we now also have independence.. Another massive hint is our reaction to HK and the open offer to settle in the UK. ALL currency as we know it is going to change, no one doubts that in the financial sectors and is generally accepted, the details are still being decided on how and when but its definitely going digital in part at least. BOE will go crypo from roughly 2025, probably in tandem with some other major currencies, does anyone think all this adding numbers on a keyboard to prop up the global economies is going to last or continue in perpetuity ? I dont. Something must break and break it will 100%, only the timing remains. Do people think the entire globe is going to adjust without serious upheaval in some places ? 

 

There will be more options if we are calling our own shots and flexible to change rather than an ever bickering EU and taking orders. After 2000 years of Europe carving out very different cultures and economies and frequent wars to think it will sit around and sing kum by ya for very long is kidding themselves. Are jobs being created at the speed they are going away ? nope Low birth rates and an ever ageing population guarantees an utterly broken economy long before enough die naturally.The EU will only survive peacefully if it has 50% less in it or 100% more to pay for the aged and that would mean mass immigration and that will in turn bring continental cultural clashes and serious unrest anyway. 

 

Im sorry but i do not see the next 15 years as being anything but painful and tumultuous for the world let alone the UK, we are well overdue for a global conflict of some kind AND a global currency reset, perhaps both. 

 

So nope I do not need or ever want a detailed plan, only the rough direction. It seems people are too weak and scared to deal with lifes surprises, weak men guarantee hard times but hard times make strong men... so its all good in the longrun. Its also possible we will discover free energy or aliens might turn up with a spare planet or another dimension to go colonise.. 

 

 Wow after a reread that sounds wayy out there ..Except theres nothing ive said that cant be backed up with science or appropriate documents, mathematical method or evidence.

 

ahh well If id have come in here a year ago and said the world would be closed down and there would be zero tourists in Thailand by the next year id have sounded just as crazy... 

 

Strange times to be living in and no doubt more to come. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone. 

Peace ... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'A' for effort, dude. You have learned one thing, which a lot of people have not - you know you have to keep learning, otherwise your imagination withers. what was disappointing to me, was the lack of reaction to your post. I'd never move back to Ireland - no kids, too bloody cold and everyone goes around dressed in black or grey. live long and prosper.

[stephenterry]

20 hours ago, nauseus said:

Numbers from other sources suggest that the true figure is actually at least double and something like half a trillion pounds. But if you want to send the link I'll have a look. You don't show any reference to this 'economic deficit' or how this is worked out or forecasted either. Johnson is certainly not responsible for current deficits. 

With respect, I'm not your skivvy. Look it up yourself. Just google Bloomberg and brexit for starters. Then House of Commons library and brexit. Then costs of brexit. I even posted a brexit cost chart on this forum subject, if you get your butt off the couch and look back.

 

IMO, whatever the actuality of the financial cost, it's a reality that brexiteers need to accept, and to stop bandying around quoting savings to be made by NOT contributing to the EU budget, as an economic rationale for leaving the EU. Because there isn't any savings to be had.

 

And as I've posted previously, my view supports this costly actuality providing the UK doesn't pursue unattainable ideologies of going it alone in the modern world. It's unattainable, because it would fail at the first hurdle, e.g. not compromising with the EU on a trade deal, the world's largest trading block and the world's largest trader of manufactured goods and services.

 

Or would you rather cut off your nose to spite your face and sell off the NHS to the US pharma industry, and also consume chlorinated chicken and junk fast food from USA outlets?

 

Your choice...

 

 

 

 

 

[stephenterry]

5 hours ago, englishoak said:

Wow after a reread that sounds wayy out there ..Except theres nothing ive said that cant be backed up with science or appropriate documents, mathematical method or evidence.

 

Apologies for cutting out an extract, but I disagree with the essence and trends of your forecasts and statements. There is no certainty, except that change will occur. That is factual. No argument. How that change manifests itself across many paths is debatable, maybe we'll see a correlation, but without a conclusive causation - until the consequences are known.   

 

IMO, until humans stop eating animals, global destruction and pandemics will continue - until AI become the dominant species...  

 

 

[JonnyF]

17 hours ago, bannork said:

I've finally found an upside to Brexit: The Irish can watch a British famine.

You might want to check the Irish contribution to the post covid wealth transfer scheme. 16 Billion I believe. The second highest per capita across the bloc.

 

Better start hoarding them potatoes.????

[nauseus]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

How so?

I asked first.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

there is no vaccine for a nation that lacks foresight. how many examples do you want?

 

I can't crack your code. My enigma is on the blink.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

With respect, I'm not your skivvy. Look it up yourself. Just google Bloomberg and brexit for starters. Then House of Commons library and brexit. Then costs of brexit. I even posted a brexit cost chart on this forum subject, if you get your butt off the couch and look back.

 

IMO, whatever the actuality of the financial cost, it's a reality that brexiteers need to accept, and to stop bandying around quoting savings to be made by NOT contributing to the EU budget, as an economic rationale for leaving the EU. Because there isn't any savings to be had.

 

And as I've posted previously, my view supports this costly actuality providing the UK doesn't pursue unattainable ideologies of going it alone in the modern world. It's unattainable, because it would fail at the first hurdle, e.g. not compromising with the EU on a trade deal, the world's largest trading block and the world's largest trader of manufactured goods and services.

 

Or would you rather cut off your nose to spite your face and sell off the NHS to the US pharma industry, and also consume chlorinated chicken and junk fast food from USA outlets?

 

Your choice...

 

 

 

 

 

I asked nicely but never mind.

 

   Your additional comments are just more speculation anyway.

 

       I chose already but that had nothing to do with the USA. 

[paddypower]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I can't crack your code. My enigma is on the blink.

Most Brexit fans expectations are on the blink. How are you going to take back fishing licences which your own people sold to the Dutch? I do not know whether you are underestimating the intelligence of the Dutch or overestimating your own.

[paddypower]

13 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

You might want to check the Irish contribution to the post covid wealth transfer scheme. 16 Billion I believe. The second highest per capita across the bloc.

 

Better start hoarding them potatoes.????

and who is gonna pick your turnips? Rees Mogg and your other Etonian masters?

 

[JonnyF]

3 minutes ago, paddypower said:

Most Brexit fans expectations are on the blink. How are you going to take back fishing licences which your own people sold to the Dutch? I do not know whether you are underestimating the intelligence of the Dutch or overestimating your own.

Are these the same Dutch that just capitulated in the post covid wealth transfer scheme?

 

I suggest you focus on that bailout payment for the southern nations. It's way more than any fishing rights in our waters.

[englishoak]

58 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

Apologies for cutting out an extract, but I disagree with the essence and trends of your forecasts and statements. There is no certainty, except that change will occur. That is factual. No argument. How that change manifests itself across many paths is debatable, maybe we'll see a correlation, but without a conclusive causation - until the consequences are known.   

 

IMO, until humans stop eating animals, global destruction and pandemics will continue - until AI become the dominant species...  

 

 

 

Apology not required, it was a too long anyway. We can agree change will occur, I would rather be wrong than correct but ive been at the bigger picture for a long time now and as time passes various concerns have come to pass. I find most of it easy enough to follow but mostly unpalatable too.   

 

This isnt really the topic but Pandemics have been around forever and they arnt driven by eating animals and nor is global destruction. Environment and weather changes create more pandemics than viruses crossing species. Eating animals is not the reason for global destruction, we have been doing plenty of that clearing areas to farm soy etc since man learned farming and putting down roots in communities.  That changed global landscapes not hunter gatherer societies.

 

Its not complicated imo, our population success as a species is primarily due to our intelligence and leaning the ability to bend the world to suit our needs is and thats not going to change. we are simply running out of resources/room. Pandemics, famine and war is imo natures control mechanism, the last one war being hardwired from our evolutionary beginnings.  I have long come to the conclusion nature and/or the divine plan incorporates a self correcting system. The planet dosnt care, 99.9% of all species that have ever been are extinct and end ours will if we do not find new territory. 

 

It may be AGI will come up with the solution but that best happen real soon. We are in a race imo to find new territory before true self aware AI for the most logical and immediate solution to global harmony would be a mass culling of global population and the tools and methods to do so abound and have for decades. Again i hope I am wrong about that.

 

 

[nauseus]

39 minutes ago, paddypower said:

Most Brexit fans expectations are on the blink. How are you going to take back fishing licences which your own people sold to the Dutch? I do not know whether you are underestimating the intelligence of the Dutch or overestimating your own.

Oh my. So who issues these 'licenses' then?

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Are these the same Dutch that just capitulated in the post covid wealth transfer scheme?

 

I suggest you focus on that bailout payment for the southern nations. It's way more than any fishing rights in our waters.

Yes it is a post Covid rebuilding settlement, though describing it as a bailout payment for the southern nations is misleading. Italy and Spain suffered the worst from Covid (Apart from the UK) and they happen to be in the south of Europe.

 

If the Irish and Dutch (Maybe Luxembourg as well?) are paying above the odds that may reflect that they have been leaching of the EU by providing tax havens to US (Mainly) multinationals.

 

The UK as a world capital of tax avoidance is in a different league altogether. The rich just adore us, although industries that want tariff free, and paperwork free access to the vast EU market not so much.

[7by7]

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

I asked first.

OK, the exchange:

On 7/24/2020 at 12:41 PM, 7by7 said:

On 7/24/2020 at 4:39 AM, nauseus said:

Perhaps then, the EU has broken international law in the first instance?

How so?

 You asked a rhetorical question suggesting that the EU may have broken international law. I asked you 'How so?'

 

But as dealing with that seems beyond you, let me answer your question 'Perhaps then, the EU has broken international law in the first instance?' with 'No.'

 

So, will you now answer my question?

 

Edit:

A reminder that the international law in question is that which says migrants/refugees picked up in a country's territorial waters are the responsibility of that country.

Edited July 25, 2020 by 7by7
Addendum

[david555]

( If going to Berlin chaps.... dont forget that white cloth on a stick ..... ???????? ) ????

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/24/britain-looks-berlin-break-brexit-deadlock/

Britain looks to Berlin to break Brexit deadlock 
One senior UK source close to the negotiations said Angela Merkel’s reputation as a dealmaker could be essential in ending the impasse 

By
James Franey
in Brussels 
24 July 2020 • 8:00pm

 

 

British negotiators are banking on German Chancellor Angela Merkel to unblock Brexit talks after Michel Barnier accused the UK of wrecking the chances of a trade deal with the EU.

In July, Germany took up the six-month rotating presidency of the European Union, which allows it to set the bloc's policy direction until the end of the year.

A senior UK source close to the negotiations said Mrs Merkel's reputation as a dealmaker on the European stage could be key to end the impasse.

 

more...
 

Edited July 25, 2020 by david555

[bannork]

Merkel to the rescue

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/24/germany-calls-on-uk-show-more-realism-brexit-negotiations

[nauseus]

10 hours ago, 7by7 said:

OK, the exchange:

 You asked a rhetorical question suggesting that the EU may have broken international law. I asked you 'How so?'

 

But as dealing with that seems beyond you, let me answer your question 'Perhaps then, the EU has broken international law in the first instance?' with 'No.'

 

So, will you now answer my question?

 

Edit:

A reminder that the international law in question is that which says migrants/refugees picked up in a country's territorial waters are the responsibility of that country.

I asked the question because I don't know the answer.

 

But you can't just accept that. Is that because you think I know everything?

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, bannork said:

Merkel to the rescue

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/24/germany-calls-on-uk-show-more-realism-brexit-negotiations

Did you read this?

[7by7]

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

I asked the question because I don't know the answer.

 

But you can't just accept that. Is that because you think I know everything?

 

You used a rhetorical question to suggest that the EU had broken international law an when I asked you "How so?" you responded that you would answer after I had.

 

I have answered your question and as you have now acknowledged your prior ignorance on the matter all I can say is that I am happy to have educated you.

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

You used a rhetorical question to suggest that the EU had broken international law an when I asked you "How so?" you responded that you would answer after I had.

 

I have answered your question and as you have now acknowledged your prior ignorance on the matter all I can say is that I am happy to have educated you.

Q. What do you think of it so far?

 

A. Ruggish.

[bannork]

13 hours ago, nauseus said:

Did you read this?

Of course. Germany has the 'rolling presidency' of the EU now. If anyone can help the UK form a deal with the EU, it's Merkel. 

But the UK must be 'realistic'. 555

[nauseus]

32 minutes ago, bannork said:

Of course. Germany has the 'rolling presidency' of the EU now. If anyone can help the UK form a deal with the EU, it's Merkel. 

But the UK must be 'realistic'. 555

She still sounds like Barnier at the moment. I suppose the word 'realistic' cannot be applied to the EU.

 

This 'rolling presidency' never seems to make much difference. If Mutti wants to stick her oar in, she'll do it anyway.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

She still sounds like Barnier at the moment. I suppose the word 'realistic' cannot be applied to the EU.

 

This 'rolling presidency' never seems to make much difference. If Mutti wants to stick her oar in, she'll do it anyway.

 

 

its not supposed to make much difference, its burden sharing and a means to avoid much difference

 

[Airbagwill]

On 7/23/2020 at 1:45 PM, Andrew65 said:

The mantra of the 1975 referendum was "Your jobs are safer with Britain in the EEC" 3.5 million jobs weren't safer. Or maybe if we'd have left the EEC 7 million would've been unemployed?

I obviously didn't say that 450 million people moved to the UK, I said they were given the right to.

I never said that the Soviet Union joined, I said most of the Soviet bloc. 

Pigeon chess is what you play with Brexiteers to a man.....they are the death of reason evidence and logic

[pixelaoffy]

3 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Pigeon chess is what you play with Brexiteers to a man.....they are the death of reason evidence and logic

Oh dear !  Barnier's mouthpiece let out his hole