Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[ubonjoe]

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[anon789561]

Nothing puts me off. It's funny really. And when I was a kid I also got caught being silly. Sometimes I read this forum and think that a lot of people are paranoid. It's strange. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

How far are you into the process, greenchair?


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[Arkady]

2 hours ago, Happy enough said:

5555. Ok. Irritating my wife. You've sold it. But don't you find that people don't really sing anymore since . . Just saying 

Last time I went to the cinema there was still a certain amount of mumbling.

[Arkady]

54 minutes ago, greenchair said:

I think singing is not that high on their agenda. 

I believe if you were going to pass/not pass it would not be greatly influenced by can/cannot sing. 

Probably they are more interested in, the years already in Thailand, income, criminal record.

By the way don't let the criminal record scare you off. That is based on served jail time. not fines and minor records. 

I have 2 records in Thailand and 1 at home .

 

When I was waiting for my interview at the MoI a Chinese couple, applying together, was in there for about half an hour.  One of the staff came out and told us that the delay was caused by the committee making them repeat the songs several times.  So I asked her what would happen, if they still couldn't get it right and she said they would be told to go away and practice and be invited back for interview again in several months time.  It didn't do much for my nerves but it was good to know there would be another chance.  TV members have also reported meeting other applicants at interviews, who were on their second interviews, having failed the first one due to poor singing.  

 

As explained to me by one of the longer serving SB officers in the section, the process is actually very black and white.  Either you qualify by meeting the minimum requirements of income, time in Thailand etc and get at least 50 points or you don't.  If you qualify, in nearly all cases, you will be approved. Many applicants with the minimum salary and other qualifications have been approved lately.  The singing is used as a proxy for the knowledge of Thai language requirement for those who don't qualify on the basis of being married to a Thai.  It might be quite hard for members of the interview committee to agree on whether candidates spoke and understood Thai well enough to pass but whether someone could sing the songs or not is usually quite obvious and they are usually also the ones who can't speak Thai very well.  So the singing does serve a purpose, as far as the MoI is concerned, whether we agree that is fair or not.      

 

You are right that criminal misdemeanors don't disqualify for citizenship but jail time can.  They only check your criminal record in Thailand with the criminal records department that is literally in the next office to them, check your fingerprints against the Thai police database and check with the Thai Interpol liaison office.  That means that an overseas criminal record will not show up, unless it was a serious enough crime to be on Interpol's records.  Unlike the PR process, they don't ask for a criminal record clearance from your home country.          

[Arkady]

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[MrPatrickThai]

Oh, btw, they said I would have to go next door for the fingerprints, background check and "medical".  I thought this strange as I wouldn't expect there to be doctors there.

[onthemoon]

21 hours ago, Arkady said:

For knowledge of Thailand (10 points), you should definitely be familiar with the full titles and less formal ways of referring to the senior members of the Royal Family e.g. "Nai Luang", "Prajaoyuuhua".  Any of these could come up. I think I was asked about the Queen's full title.  Questions on the Nationality Act also come up frequently, e.g. Q. At what point does an applicant for Thai nationality officially become Thai?  A. On publication in the Royal Gazette.  In one of the two times I had to take the test, I was asked a question about the minister's discretion in granting Thai nationality - according to the Act, it is up to his discretion. You should try to read the Nationality Act in Thai, if possible, or least familiarise yourelf with key vocab in it, e.g. naturalisation, citizenship, minister, discretion, Royal Gazette etc.  Other questions are likely to be about the provinces (how many?), regions, products, e.g. Q. What area of Thailand is famous for the production of mudmee Thai silk? - A.  Pakchong, Nakorn Ratchasima.  There could also be questions about the Constitution.

Seriously? I've never heard of mudmee Thai silk, and I am sure every province is famous for something. If the test were as difficult as you describe it above, I think the rate of approvals would be very low.

I conduct business in Thai language, which makes my Thai better than most foreigners I know. That won't be enough?

[yankee99]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

Seriously? I've never heard of mudmee Thai silk, and I am sure every province is famous for something. If the test were as difficult as you describe it above, I think the rate of approvals would be very low.

I conduct business in Thai language, which makes my Thai better than most foreigners I know. That won't be enough?

That is the knowledge of thailand test not your speaking and understanding ability.  You might have enough points in other areas

[GarryP]

55 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Seriously? I've never heard of mudmee Thai silk, and I am sure every province is famous for something. If the test were as difficult as you describe it above, I think the rate of approvals would be very low.

I conduct business in Thai language, which makes my Thai better than most foreigners I know. That won't be enough?

It is a multiple choice question sheet. You get points for those questions you get right. So making a few mistakes just reduces your points but does not lead to rejection unless those points are essential for getting you across the 50 point cut off line (which is extremely unlikely). BTW I am surprised you have not heard of mudmee , although I admit I do not know which specific area is famous for it (apart from somewhere in the North East). 

 

There are so many factors for which points are allocated that language ability alone is often not a deciding factor for those applying based on marriage. Some are barely conversant in Thai yet get citizenship, while others who are fluent would be rejected if they couldn't make the 50 point cut off.  

 

I was sure I did not qualify but one of the posters on this thread pushed me to go and check with SB, where I was told I would qualify easily. If it wasn't for that poster I would have given up even before I started. In fact the points system is not so onerous. I do not have a university degree, nor a PR. I speak Thai fluently and can read it to the level that I can translate from Thai to English, but I never learned to write so was only given points for the ability to speak.  When I applied, getting points for an ability to read was tied into singing the royal and national anthems, something I was not prepared to do (I believe this has since changed). 

 

Have a look at the points system, which I understand has changed a little since I applied. But when I applied there were points for age (10), education (15), occupational  stability (read salary) (25), period of residence with or without PR (20), knowledge of Thai language (15), knowledge of Thailand (10),  personality-attitude-speech (5). My points were 10, 5,  25, 5, 8, 10 and 5 respectively. 

[anon789561]

14 minutes ago, GarryP said:

It is a multiple choice question sheet. You get points for those questions you get right. So making a few mistakes just reduces your points but does not lead to rejection unless those points are essential for getting you across the 50 point cut off line (which is extremely unlikely). BTW I am surprised you have not heard of mudmee , although I admit I do not know which specific area is famous for it (apart from somewhere in the North East). 

 

There are so many factors for which points are allocated that language ability alone is often not a deciding factor for those applying based on marriage. Some are barely conversant in Thai yet get citizenship, while others who are fluent would be rejected if they couldn't make the 50 point cut off.  

 

I was sure I did not qualify but one of the posters on this thread pushed me to go and check with SB, where I was told I would qualify easily. If it wasn't for that poster I would have given up even before I started. In fact the points system is not so onerous. I do not have a university degree, nor a PR. I speak Thai fluently and can read it to the level that I can translate from Thai to English, but I never learned to write so was only given points for the ability to speak.  When I applied, getting points for an ability to read was tied into singing the royal and national anthems, something I was not prepared to do (I believe this has since changed). 

 

Have a look at the points system, which I understand has changed a little since I applied. But when I applied there were points for age (10), education (15), occupational  stability (read salary) (25), period of residence with or without PR (20), knowledge of Thai language (15), knowledge of Thailand (10),  personality-attitude-speech (5). My points were 10, 5,  25, 5, 8, 10 and 5 respectively. 

'personality-attitude-speech (5). ' what on earth is that?

[GarryP]

1 minute ago, Happy enough said:

'personality-attitude-speech (5). ' what on earth is that?

They are discretionary points handed out by the SB officer after the formal SB interview.  You will probably only see this fellow once and that is during said interview.   

[anon789561]

Just now, GarryP said:

They are discretionary points handed out by the SB officer after the formal SB interview.  You will probably only see this fellow once and that is during said interview.   

so just be nice and offer him some cash? 555.

[NewlyMintedThai]

That would be very ill-advised.


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[GarryP]

Just now, Happy enough said:

so just be nice and offer him some cash? 555.

That probably would get you kicked out of the interview and disqualified. The stories you may have heard about money under the table are probably from people who have never applied themselves. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

'personality-attitude-speech (5). ' what on earth is that?

It means being polite and having good manners. Easy for most of us, I'd hope?


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[anon789561]

Just now, NewlyMintedThai said:

 

It means being polite and having good manners. Easy for most of us, I'd hope?


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ok ok. I was just joking

[anon789561]

2 minutes ago, GarryP said:

That probably would get you kicked out of the interview and disqualified. The stories you may have heard about money under the table are probably from people who have never applied themselves. 

i'll bear that in mind. it was a joke. not very funny I know. not even a joke but not serious. kotchai mai krub

[Arkady]

11 minutes ago, Happy enough said:

i'll bear that in mind. it was a joke. not very funny I know. not even a joke but not serious. kotchai mai krub

It is not a laughing matter for SB officers.  A Thai lady with a farang husband complained to a political connection about demands for bribes a few years ago, which resulted in a lengthy investigation of officers there that turned up nothing.  It eventually transpired that the husband had never applied for nationality and that neither he nor his wife had ever been to the SB office or even called them on the phone.  

[GarryP]

3 minutes ago, Arkady said:

It is not a laughing matter for SB officers.  A Thai lady with a farang husband complained to a political connection about demands for bribes a few years ago, which resulted in a lengthy investigation of officers there that turned up nothing.  It eventually transpired that the husband had never applied for nationality and that neither he nor his wife had ever been to the SB office or even called them on the phone.  

I was invited in to give a formal statement/testimony in relation to a similar case, where a complaint had been filed against one of the officers. 

[Arkady]

2 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Seriously? I've never heard of mudmee Thai silk, and I am sure every province is famous for something. If the test were as difficult as you describe it above, I think the rate of approvals would be very low.

I conduct business in Thai language, which makes my Thai better than most foreigners I know. That won't be enough?

Any Thai with a M3 education should get 90-100% on this test.  Remember that they want you to pass and your Thai spouse, lawyer, secretary or other helper can help you, ostensibly to understand the questions.  When I did it they rounded up the points, i.e. if there were 20 questions and you got 17 right, that is 8.5/10 which would be rounded up to 9/10.  I got one question wrong the first time because I misunderstood heavy winking of the SB officer made the wrong choice.  The second time I got all of them after being given the question bank to practice on.  I would guess that most applicants get at least 7/10 points on this test.  It is not something to worry about.

 

The reading and writing tests are fairly easy too, if you can offer them. For reading I was asked to read aloud a memo on the officer's desk and she stopped me after I had read the first two lines, saying that was fine.  Writing for me was writing out the name and address of SB which I had fortunately  memorised as a result of having to get my bank statement done three times.  I was given the full 2 points for that, even though I got a couple of tone marks wrong.

[Arkady]

A nonsense post was deleted.

[yankee99]

Can someone clarify? On the speaking and understanding can you get less than 8 points?

 

I calculated 53 for myself assuming basic thai will give me the full 8 points

[Arkady]

15 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Oh, btw, they said I would have to go next door for the fingerprints, background check and "medical".  I thought this strange as I wouldn't expect there to be doctors there.

 

In my case, the officers in the Nationality Section took the finger prints themselves and sent them for checking.  They also sent my file to various departments for vetting without me having to go to them in person.  The only exception was the NIA which interviews applicants at McD's, Ratchprasong.  When I was interviewed the red shirt occupation of Ratchprasong was in full swing and it was a bit surreal being interviewed in the midst of well heeled looking red shirts taking a break from the protests, playing with their iPads and eating hamburgers. 

 

I am unaware of any medical requirement for citizenship but perhaps there is something new.   When I applied for PR I had to get a medical certificate from a government hospital to show I was clear of elephantiasis, syphilis, alcoholism and the other diseases that are also required for  work permits. The doctor asked me if I was feeling OK today and when I said, "Yes" he ticked all the boxes saying I didn't have elephantiasis etc but didn't take my word for the syphilis for which I had to have a blood test to the great hilarity of the company driver who accompanied me.       

[ubonjoe]

A comment on moderation has been removed.

[Arkady]

3 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Can someone clarify? On the speaking and understanding can you get less than 8 points?

 

I calculated 53 for myself assuming basic thai will give me the full 8 points

The points for oral and aural are usually assigned by your case officer based on your oral communication with him or her during the application process.  I was told that they can give the full 8 points as long as the applicant is able to communicate with them directly without having to rely entirely on a spouse or other interpreter.  My wife actively engaged in the conversations and helped clarify things from time to time, as well as usually being kind enough to call them on my behalf.  I still got the full 8 points because I was able communicate directly face to face with the officer and when she called me on my mobile a couple of times.  Most applicants you meet at the interviews don't speak Thai all that fluently but they can communicate.  I think most get 8 points.  Don't worry too much about this.  

[Arkady]

An off topic post has been removed.

[onthemoon]

59 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Any Thai with a M3 education should get 90-100% on this test.  Remember that they want you to pass and your Thai spouse, lawyer, secretary or other helper can help you, ostensibly to understand the questions.  When I did it they rounded up the points, i.e. if there were 20 questions and you got 17 right, that is 8.5/10 which would be rounded up to 9/10.  I got one question wrong the first time because I misunderstood heavy winking of the SB officer made the wrong choice.  The second time I got all of them after being given the question bank to practice on.  I would guess that most applicants get at least 7/10 points on this test.  It is not something to worry about.

 

The reading and writing tests are fairly easy too, if you can offer them. For reading I was asked to read aloud a memo on the officer's desk and she stopped me after I had read the first two lines, saying that was fine.  Writing for me was writing out the name and address of SB which I had fortunately  memorised as a result of having to get my bank statement done three times.  I was given the full 2 points for that, even though I got a couple of tone marks wrong.

I should be fine with the language, as I completed my Ph.D. in a Thai-language program.

 

My worries are about specialty products  of each province or tambon, I don't have that knowledge. I'm a city-dweller, male, and don't know about different types of silk or where they come from... I'll certainly lose some points here. 

[NewlyMintedThai]

Don't sweat it. I missed the Thai silk question and still got my ID card with no issues.


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[GarryP]

50 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Can someone clarify? On the speaking and understanding can you get less than 8 points?

 

I calculated 53 for myself assuming basic thai will give me the full 8 points

When I went through the process the points for language went as follows:

 

1. Speak and understand spoken Thai - 8

2. Speak and understand spoken Thai, together with singing the royal and national anthems - 10

3. Speak and understand spoken Thai, together with singing the royal and national anthems and read Thai - 13

4. Speak and understand spoken Thai, together with singing the royal and national anthems and read and write Thai - 15

 

It may have changed since then though. Hopefully to get points for reading and writing, it will no longer be linked to singing the anthems. 

 

To conclude, 8 is already the lowest score for language. Lower than 8 means you get no points at all.