No link established between COVID-19 vaccinations and deaths of 13 people – DDC

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, mikebell said:

It's two (feeble) attempts at humour.  I will try to explain it. 

1  Given the Thai cock-up over vaccines and their penchant for putting farangs last, it will be about FIVE years  before they get round to us! 

2  IF we are ever given the chance to choose a vaccine, Sinovac would not be on my list of possible brands.

Any clearer?

My issue with Sinovac is not that it would necessarily harm me but that it is not particularly effective. I’d go for AstraZeneca or the other western vaccines before touching Sinovac. The Indian strain will get to Thailand and Sinovac may not be the best defence.

[Sheryl]

16 hours ago, JamieM said:

So no links with all vaccines? or just no links to death when it comes to sinovax? ????

They appear to be reporting on both AZ and Sinovac. And giving results of investigations into 13 out of 68 reported deaths. The results for the other 55 still pending.

 

And before people jump at the idea of 68 deaths in people who were vaccinated so far:

 

5,158,078 people vaccinated

Crude death rate in Thailand is 79 per thousand. Which means that in any given week, you'd expect almost 8,000 deaths and on any given, random day, you'd expect over 1,000.

 

Now those are gross estimates that do not take age into account, to do that one would have to know the ages of those vaccinated and the ages of those who died after vaccination. But certainly at rough glance there is absolutely nothing alarming or unusual about the numbers of people reported to have died "after" vaccination. (Initially these cases were usually within 1-2 days but I notice of late the newspapers seizing in deaths that occurred as much as a week later, which seems absurd, especially as often in people with history of what sounds like the cause of death - e.g. a recent case in a man with history of ischemic strikes who died of what sounds very much like a stroke a week after vaccination).

 

Age specific calculations were made in the clinical trials and have been made in real world studies as well.  They do not show an increase on deaths in vaccinated versus unvaccinated groups, quite the opposite. In all age groups the effect is positive i.e. benefits outweigh risks and deaths are fewer.

 

There will always be reports of people dying after being vaccinated if the number vaccinates is say 1000 or more...there has to be because people, vaccinated or not,  die.

[bluedoc]

17 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Autopsy results have found no link between COVID-19 vaccines and the post-vaccination deaths of 13 people, according to Dr. Chawetsan Namwat, director for emergency health hazards and diseases of the Department of Disease Control (DDC).

So misleading, the deaths under review for the vaccine is 68, of which 13 is not down to the vaccine. The other 55 deaths are reported to be still under investigation but seem to be linked to the vaccine. See The Nation website.

[Pedrogaz]

Sloppy headline.....of course there is a 'link'...they all had the vaccine. The issue is, and always will be, did the vaccine cause the side effect? Is this 'cause' and 'effect', or is it a result of random 'noise' in a large population?

You cannot ever rule out cause and effect because you would need to do a huge randomised controlled double blind study of treated vs non-treated people, simply to say it is, say, less than a 1 in 20 chance. Such a study cannot be implemented anyway under current medical ethics rules.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, mtls2005 said:

 

Wow.

 

Thank you for this brilliant insight.

 

 

Some people need this 'brilliant insight' because obvious common sense eludes them.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[zhounan]

Let me guess: the autopsy revealed that the 13 patients died of cardiac arrest, didn't they? ????

 

The mass vaccination campaign cannot be interrupted in any way, too many economic, political and technological interests.

 

The DDC is merely repeating what they say in the West.

Edited June 18, 2021 by zhounan

[Caldera]

My takeaway is that the number of people who encounter severe side effects is very low. No surprises there.

[Scouse123]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Locals getting discounted prices is hardly 'victimization'! It happened to me in Melbourne and Orlando too. 

Actually, in Melbourne I had to pay 5000 baht more than my Oz friend. 

 

????????????

 

You trying to keep us interested with cryptic clues or just trolling?

 

 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

They appear to be reporting on both AZ and Sinovac. And giving results of investigations into 13 out of 68 reported deaths. The results for the other 55 still pending.

 

And before people jump at the idea of 68 deaths in people who were vaccinated so far:

 

5,158,078 people vaccinated

Crude death rate in Thailand is 79 per thousand. Which means that in any given week, you'd expect almost 8,000 deaths and on any given, random day, you'd expect over 1,000.

 

Now those are gross estimates that do not take age into account, to do that one would have to know the ages of those vaccinated and the ages of those who died after vaccination. But certainly at rough glance there is absolutely nothing alarming or unusual about the numbers of people reported to have died "after" vaccination. (Initially these cases were usually within 1-2 days but I notice of late the newspapers seizing in deaths that occurred as much as a week later, which seems absurd, especially as often in people with history of what sounds like the cause of death - e.g. a recent case in a man with history of ischemic strikes who died of what sounds very much like a stroke a week after vaccination).

 

Age specific calculations were made in the clinical trials and have been made in real world studies as well.  They do not show an increase on deaths in vaccinated versus unvaccinated groups, quite the opposite. In all age groups the effect is positive i.e. benefits outweigh risks and deaths are fewer.

 

There will always be reports of people dying after being vaccinated if the number vaccinates is say 1000 or more...there has to be because people, vaccinated or not,  die.

 

Exactly this..... 

 

But, this intelligent, common sense and balanced outlook is not mirrored by those whose myopic mindset is devoid of any intelligent balance.

 

There are those who will blindly blame the vaccine for any death of anyone who also had the vaccine, no matter genuine cause. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by richard_smith237

[JetsetBkk]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

There are those who will blindly blame the vaccine for any death of anyone who also had the vaccine, no matter genuine cause

 

Google "Simone Scott myocarditis".

[daxbr]

Which one comes with lottery ticket?

[placeholder]

21 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I suggest you find a better dictionary. A foreigner is someone who doesn't hold nationality of a certain country. 

In that case everyone is a foreigner. Unless there's someone somewhere who actually has citizenship in every country.

[placeholder]

16 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Google "Simone Scott myocarditis".

Even if it's the case that she died from the vaccine, what does that establish about the risks of getting vaccinated vs. not being vaccinated? Cherry-picking much?

[Sheryl]

21 hours ago, bluedoc said:

So misleading, the deaths under review for the vaccine is 68, of which 13 is not down to the vaccine. The other 55 deaths are reported to be still under investigation but seem to be linked to the vaccine. See The Nation website.

 

Still under review does not equal "seem to be linked". It takes weeks to get full autopsy results.

[meechai]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

Even if it's the case that she died from the vaccine, what does that establish about the risks of getting vaccinated vs. not being vaccinated? Cherry-picking much?

 

 

People often say or ask that...."about the risks of getting vaccinated vs. not being vaccinated?"

 

But lets start at the beginning....

You may or may not ever catch Covid so there is that

Then if you do catch it & are otherwise healthy without underlying existing condition etc then you have a 99.xx% chance of surviving it

 

So yes in the case of the young 19 year old girl that you deem death worthy due to the "greater good" I am not so sure given the facts that

the risk she took with that vaccine that cost her life that had barely been lived was worth the squeeze

 

But she did take it so there is that

[meechai]

21 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

There are those who will blindly blame the vaccine for any death of anyone who also had the vaccine, no matter genuine cause.

 

Then there are those that will blame Covid no matter the genuine cause...So lets not pretend one answer exists when the question is

barley understood or agreed upon by anyone inside or outside the medical profession let alone some Thai expat forum

[placeholder]

14 minutes ago, meechai said:

 

Then there are those that will blame Covid no matter the genuine cause...So lets not pretend one answer exists when the question is

barley understood or agreed upon by anyone inside or outside the medical profession let alone some Thai expat forum

Nonsense. Excess mortality figures  establish conclusively that Covid has actually caused more deaths than are officially ascribed to it.

[richard_smith237]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

2 hours ago, meechai said:

 

Then there are those that will blame Covid no matter the genuine cause...So lets not pretend one answer exists when the question is

barley understood or agreed upon by anyone inside or outside the medical profession let alone some Thai expat forum

Nonsense. Excess mortality figures  establish conclusively that Covid has actually caused more deaths than are officially ascribed to it.

 

Absolutely - the Global Excess mortality is estimated at 3 million in 2020.

 

In 2020 the excess mortality in England and Wales was 75,000 deaths more than the average of the previous 5 years. i.e. 13.9% more people died in 2020 than normal would have. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluedoc]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

Still under review does not equal "seem to be linked". It takes weeks to get full autopsy results.

Can you tell me the number of people that have been diagnosed of death by flu. Recent case of a women,had Covid, recovered then died at home from flu 

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, bluedoc said:

Can you tell me the number of people that have been diagnosed of death by flu. Recent case of a women,had Covid, recovered then died at home from flu 

care to share a link to that alleged incident?

Edited June 19, 2021 by placeholder

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, bluedoc said:

Can you tell me the number of people that have been diagnosed of death by flu. Recent case of a women,had Covid, recovered then died at home from flu 

Influenza is a very scarce disease this year. And lest you say that's because it's being misdiagnosed as Covid, govt health services do actual surveys via actual blood samples to test for the prevalence of the flu. It's almost vanished entirely.

[Eric Loh]

23 hours ago, JetsetBkk said:

 

Google "Simone Scott myocarditis".

I wouldn’t put too much weight on a right wing blog that speculated the myocarditis induced heart failure. The poor girl had a heart transplant in May. 

 

[richard_smith237]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Influenza is a very scarce disease this year. And lest you say that's because it's being misdiagnosed as Covid, govt health services do actual surveys via actual blood samples to test for the prevalence of the flu. It's almost vanished entirely.

 

The measures put in place, social isolation, masks etc in an attempt to prevent the spread of a highly transmissible virus have worked to prevent the spread of influenza.

 

But, what happens when Flu comes back ??? It will kick us hard because we have not evolved with it over the past 18 months and pre-existing antibodies most of us were carrying may well have diminished....

 

... come Winter an influenza outbreak could be serious.

 

For those who normally wouldn’t, receiving an influenza vaccine this year is not a bad idea... 

I hope the virologist have been able to keep up to date with whichever influenza variants will be prevalent. 

[placeholder]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

 

The measures put in place, social isolation, masks etc in an attempt to prevent the spread of a highly transmissible virus have worked to prevent the spread of influenza.

 

But, what happens when Flu comes back ??? It will kick us hard because we have not evolved with it over the past 18 months and pre-existing antibodies most of us were carrying may well have diminished....

 

... come Winter an influenza outbreak could be serious.

 

For those who normally wouldn’t, receiving an influenza vaccine this year is not a bad idea... 

I hope the virologist have been able to keep up to date with whichever influenza variants will be prevalent. 

For those who aren't vaccinated there most likely will be a rebound effect. Actually, there's some evidence that flu vaccines do provide some protection against contracting covid.

Can getting a flu shot help protect against COVID-19?

• Researchers recently identified lower COVID-19 rates among people who received flu shots.
• The odds of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 were 24% lower for those who received a flu shot compared with those who did not.
• People who had been vaccinated against the flu who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 had a lower hospitalization rate than people who had not been vaccinated against the flu.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-getting-a-flu-shot-help-protect-against-covid-19

[richard_smith237]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

For those who aren't vaccinated there most likely will be a rebound effect. Actually, there's some evidence that flu vaccines do provide some protection against contracting covid.

Can getting a flu shot help protect against COVID-19?

• Researchers recently identified lower COVID-19 rates among people who received flu shots.
• The odds of testing positive for SARS-CoV-2 were 24% lower for those who received a flu shot compared with those who did not.
• People who had been vaccinated against the flu who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 had a lower hospitalization rate than people who had not been vaccinated against the flu.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-getting-a-flu-shot-help-protect-against-covid-19

 

Interesting info....  

 

Will Covid-19 vaccines also be effective against Influenza ?

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Interesting info....  

 

Will Covid-19 vaccines also be effective against Influenza ?

Given that influenza has virtually vanished, I guess we'll have to wait and see after it makes its triumphal return.

[scorecard]

On 6/18/2021 at 12:16 PM, mikebell said:

I can safely cross Sinovac off my list of possible vaccines (in 5 years time).

In 5 years time there may well be a totally different scenario. Many members have probably read reports that the big pharma companies and others are making some progress towards more Covid 19 / Covid family vaccines which are much superior to what's available right now and will probably cover all of the viruses in this family. 

 

Medical science, globally, has made massive changes / improvements / innovations over the last 20, 10, even 5 years in terms of diagnosis, surgery and medicinal treatments.

 

I'm suspecting that 20 years from now all of these items will be very different and highly impressive, and way ahead of what we see even now.              

Edited June 19, 2021 by scorecard

[mikebell]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

In 5 years time there may well be a totally different scenario. Many members have probably read reports that the big pharma companies and others are making some progress towards more Covid 19 / Covid family vaccines which are much superior to what's available right now and will probably cover all of the viruses in this family. 

 

Medical science, globally, has made massive changes / improvements / innovations over the last 20, 10, even 5 years in terms of diagnosis, surgery and medicinal treatments.

 

I'm suspecting that 20 years from now all of these items will be very different and highly impressive, and way ahead of what we see even now.              

A very optimistic post, thank you.  Unfortunately as I am 78/a half, five years might come too late for me!

[scorecard]

3 hours ago, mikebell said:

A very optimistic post, thank you.  Unfortunately as I am 78/a half, five years might come too late for me!

I don't believe that, at least 10...