Lease agreement (cautions?)

[dj230]

New to thailand and going to sign a lease soon for a condo, was wondering, is there anything I should be cautious about in Thailand when signing leases? 

 

Ive been looking for about 2 weeks and so far, I've noticed actual real estate companies listings have way better customer service than the listings posted by individuals (they're working for companies too, but seem to be a lot lower end). Had a chance to see a few lease agreements and only 1 out of all of them looked to be on par with lease agreements in Canada (By Serve Property Management). Most of the lease agreements were very one sided to benefit the landlord over the tenant. 

 

I don't even bother messaging the listings posted by individuals anymore, the leases from them practically blamed everything on the tenant (i.e if appliances stop working the tenant must pay 50% to replace). Most of the real estate company leases were okay, but not great.

 

Is this the norm in Thailand for the lease to side with the landlord and is it relatively safe signing a lease? Or is it something I should be more cautious about? 

 

 

 

[tonray]

Yes it's relatively safe...if the landlord does not include a current inventory with current picture...make sure you have that added before you sign. Make sure there are express clauses for maintenance for example (who pays for AC cleaning ?) and cleaning after you vacate with fees spelled out in the agreement. Your best defense is pictures and being a good tenant who respects the property. 

[blackcab]

24 minutes ago, dj230 said:

Is this the norm in Thailand for the lease to side with the landlord...

 

Generally, yes.

[Rookiescot]

Find out the unit costs for water and electricity. Some landlords overcharge for these. Its illegal but it still happens.

Find out if there are any maintenance fees.

Find out if there are parking fees.

Take your time looking around the condo and ensure any damages already there are recorded.

Try and get a look at the neighbors. Condo walls can be pretty thin and you dont want party animals or a screaming kid next door. 

[dj230]

2 hours ago, tonray said:

Yes it's relatively safe...if the landlord does not include a current inventory with current picture...make sure you have that added before you sign. Make sure there are express clauses for maintenance for example (who pays for AC cleaning ?) and cleaning after you vacate with fees spelled out in the agreement. Your best defense is pictures and being a good tenant who respects the property. 

In Canada I'd always do a full video recording of the unit before moving in, so any previous damage would be recorded

I never even thought about the inventory thing in Canada but saw it on a bunch of leases here, that makes perfect sense though

 

I noticed the a/c cleaning fee in leases here, is it expensive? I was told it was 500ish baht and I said that was okay, I bargained the rent down quite a bit so I'm okay with paying the fee (usually leases said every 6 months)

 

 

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Find out the unit costs for water and electricity. Some landlords overcharge for these. Its illegal but it still happens.

Find out if there are any maintenance fees.

Find out if there are parking fees.

Take your time looking around the condo and ensure any damages already there are recorded.

Try and get a look at the neighbors. Condo walls can be pretty thin and you dont want party animals or a screaming kid next door. 

I made sure to ask if I was paying the utilities/water to the condo building (i prefer this since theres no extra fee from the landlord), all the leases had the maintenance/condo fees to the landlord

I'll definitely record a quick video of the unit if I sign a lease, thanks for the reccomendation

 

Seems like it's hit and miss with those things that you only find out after you move in unfortunately, I haven't seen one neighbor yet with any of the viewings.

[tonray]

Yes, 500 baht is standard AC cleaning fee. Same per unit as we pay at the house. And it is necessary.. Yeah u don't want to be breathing funky tropical mold

[dj230]

4 minutes ago, tonray said:

Yes, 500 baht is standard AC cleaning fee. Same per unit as we pay at the house. And it is necessary.. Yeah u don't want to be breathing funky tropical mold

dammit per unit...thanks for the heads up

[The Theory]

7 hours ago, dj230 said:

is it relatively safe signing a lease?

You need to know what you are signing. 
anything, not only a condo lease. 

[chilly07]

Not sure if you mean rental agreement or lease. A lease would be registered at land registry and be for a period of years whereas a rental agreement wouldn't be and be for a period of months usually 12 mths. The rental agreement would be more onerous and contain clauses covering condition on fixtures and fittings. A lease is normally vacant possession. Both should have a list of contents and a schedule of condition and signed photos demonstrating this. There is no difference  between an agent or a private landlord (as every Thai believes they are a realtor and drive around collecting phone nos) and you will find it v easy to look for a property yourself and establish a relationship with the landlord 

[jackdd]

All leases I was presented have been pretty much standard, nothing really fancy or extraordinary.

Usually the landlord is responsible for all appliances. Some standard contracts exclude lightbulbs though.

If you are unsure you can upload your lease here and other members might give you their opinion if it contains anything strange.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

I have seen some rental agreements that contain a clause that states that the tenant will return the property to the landlord in the same condition as it was at the outset of the agreement, less normal wear and tear.  This may seem fine at first glance, but it does not absolve the tenant from being responsible for damage that occurs to the premises that is beyond the tenant's control. While it may seem common sense that a tenant is not responsible for things beyond his or her control, it is possible to assume such liability under contract and this clause seems to do just that.

 

An example would be a fire that starts in the unit next door and spreads to the tenant's. Similarly, a pipe that bursts in the floor above and damages the tenant's unit.

 

A solution would be to insert a clause that exempts the tenant from liability for damage to the unit and any of the landlord's property that is caused by something beyond the tenant's control. An even further step would be to insert wording that would require the landlord's insurer to waive subrogation against the tenant, but in my estimation the subrogation waiver would likely not be understood by Thai landlords or agreed by insurers. Wouldn't hurt to try, however.

[dj230]

12 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I have seen some rental agreements that contain a clause that states that the tenant will return the property to the landlord in the same condition as it was at the outset of the agreement, less normal wear and tear.  This may seem fine at first glance, but it does not absolve the tenant from being responsible for damage that occurs to the premises that is beyond the tenant's control. While it may seem common sense that a tenant is not responsible for things beyond his or her control, it is possible to assume such liability under contract and this clause seems to do just that.

 

An example would be a fire that starts in the unit next door and spreads to the tenant's. Similarly, a pipe that bursts in the floor above and damages the tenant's unit.

 

A solution would be to insert a clause that exempts the tenant from liability for damage to the unit and any of the landlord's property that is caused by something beyond the tenant's control. An even further step would be to insert wording that would require the landlord's insurer to waive subrogation against the tenant, but in my estimation the subrogation waiver would likely not be understood by Thai landlords or agreed by insurers. Wouldn't hurt to try, however.

Funny you should mention that, one of the rental agreements I was given said I was responsible for any damage caused by natural disasters, made no sense at all in my opinion, told the real estate agent if that could be removed and they said no. So I told them I'll pass

[FridgeMagnet1]

The manager of the property I’m renting in Pattaya keeps messaging to me saying some variation of “if you pay 4 months in advance, I can reduce the monthly rental to X (usually about 25% of the agreed rate)

ive never had this at any other place I’ve rented 

I found it strange 

[gk10012001]

In writing when the Damage deposit will be returned.

In writing exactly how much notice must be given for intent to vacate.  If a fixed term lease, then in writing get what a break clause might be, i.e. tenant must pay a one month penalty, or the entire amount of the full term lease is due, etc.

In writing if Renters insurance is required.  You may want to get it anyway to protect against things that happen while you are in the unit.  Suppose a water pipe breaks and damages your unit, the furnishings, drips down and damages next door neighbor's walls, ceilings, etc

[cmarshall]

To the OP:

 

Never sign a lease unless you have negotiated out the most objectional clauses.  If, as sometimes happens in Thailand, the landlord refuses to negotiate, then move on to another unit.  Particularly in the current new tenant drought, you have all the leverage.  

 

You start to negotiate by making a list of the risks you face in entering into a rental and then write fixes.  For example, the lease should clearly state how long after you surrender the apartment at the end of your lease the landlord has to refund your security deposit, e.g. "within seven (7) days."  After you have identified the risks you face and proposed solutions, then you go over the landlord's proposed lease and rewrite the clauses that protect the landlord by unreasonably pushing a burden onto you.

 

I have never signed a lease without making changes first.  There is no such thing as a "standard" lease.  There are only gullible renters and those who know what they are doing.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

48 minutes ago, gk10012001 said:

In writing when the Damage deposit will be returned.

In writing exactly how much notice must be given for intent to vacate.  If a fixed term lease, then in writing get what a break clause might be, i.e. tenant must pay a one month penalty, or the entire amount of the full term lease is due, etc.

In writing if Renters insurance is required.  You may want to get it anyway to protect against things that happen while you are in the unit.  Suppose a water pipe breaks and damages your unit, the furnishings, drips down and damages next door neighbor's walls, ceilings, etc

All very good points. 

 

Renter's insurance is a very good idea. One should insure one's own property and also have liability insurance to cover one's legal liability for bodily injury or property damage to third parties. Basic renter's cover isn't expensive.

[brianthainess]

14 hours ago, cmarshall said:

There is no such thing as a "standard" lease. 

I beg to differ those books of leases available at any good stationary store have all looked "standard" to me. just saying.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, brianthainess said:

I beg to differ those books of leases available at any good stationary store have all looked "standard" to me. just saying.

Whenever a real estate agent has asked me to sign a lease with the assurance that it is just a "standard" lease, I reply, "Whose standard?  That's not my standard."

 

If you think that contractual standards are determined by stationery products then be my guest to a lifetime of acquiesence.

[jomtienisgood]

22 hours ago, dj230 said:

dammit per unit...thanks for the heads up

Were you not aware of this ????? 

[Doctor Tom]

On 8/10/2021 at 9:33 AM, tonray said:

Yes it's relatively safe.

Depends on your definition of 'safe'.  Is it loaded to the benefit of the landlord, yes, heavily; do you often get screwed, yes, will you always get your deposit back, maybe, a big maybe.  Renting here is full of anomalies and bad faith and as a tenant you have virtually no rights. If you accept this inevitable situation then rent.  

[tonray]

Just now, Doctor Tom said:

Depends on your definition of 'safe'.  Is it loaded to the benefit of the landlord, yes, heavily; do you often get screwed, yes, will you always get your deposit back, maybe, a big maybe.  Renting here is full of anomalies and bad faith and as a tenant you have virtually no rights. If you accept this inevitable situation then rent.  

5 years renting...never been screwed. Safe for me I'd say.

[Doctor Tom]

Just now, tonray said:

5 years renting...never been screwed. Safe for me I'd say.

I would say that you have been lucky.  I know and have heard of far more people getting screwed than of people in your situation. 

[dj230]

17 hours ago, cmarshall said:

There is no such thing as a "standard" lease.  There are only gullible renters and those who know what they are doing.

in toronto canada you have to use the governments official lease form now, i think that's why I was used to standard leases, you can add stuff but there's certain rights that tenants have there

 

  

1 hour ago, jomtienisgood said:

Were you not aware of this ????? 

didn't really think of that, im from canada and we don't have that 

[Doctor Tom]

5 minutes ago, dj230 said:

in toronto canada you have to use the governments official lease form now, i think that's why I was used to standard leases, you can add stuff but there's certain rights that tenants have there

 

  

didn't really think of that, im from canada and we don't have that 

A good rule here is that, unless you absolutely know for sure, ( close, good friends that you know well)  everyone you meet here is trying to rip you off in one way or another and the law, such as it is here,  provides almost zero protection.  Live by that and you can't go far wrong.  Leave your Canadian head back in Canada.  Cynical, maybe, but it has served me well all over Asia. 

[cmarshall]

36 minutes ago, dj230 said:

in toronto canada you have to use the governments official lease form now, i think that's why I was used to standard leases, you can add stuff but there's certain rights that tenants have there

 

  

didn't really think of that, im from canada and we don't have that 

You're not in Kansas anymore.

[dj230]

2 hours ago, Doctor Tom said:

A good rule here is that, unless you absolutely know for sure, ( close, good friends that you know well)  everyone you meet here is trying to rip you off in one way or another and the law, such as it is here,  provides almost zero protection.  Live by that and you can't go far wrong.  Leave your Canadian head back in Canada.  Cynical, maybe, but it has served me well all over Asia. 

yea... i pretty much think the same way, it's not much different in Canada to be honest, only difference is laws (in some instances). if there weren't laws protecting people in Canada it'd be the same as Thailand

 

I have to admit though, Ive havn't been ripped off in thailand so far, thought I would have by now with all the things posted online about foreigners getting ripped off, maybe it's because im asian.

 

 

[jomtienisgood]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

You're not in Kansas anymore.

Kansas is NOT in Canada......

[cmarshall]

7 minutes ago, jomtienisgood said:

Kansas is NOT in Canada......

From the point of view of New York, Canada is Kansas.

[jomtienisgood]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

From the point of view of New York, Canada is Kansas.

What does that make Th???? lol

[cmarshall]

4 hours ago, jomtienisgood said:

What does that make Th???? lol

Mars.