ICE vs EV, the debate thread

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Is this a silent grandpa ride?

No. Grandma maybe. 

 

[JBChiangRai]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:39 PM, Fruit Trader said:

Solar power is a great way to charge EV's but one cannot claim the power is free (no cost) until the value of  electricity produced exceeds the cost of solar equipment.

In my case that is 5 years, if I didn't have batteries then it would have been 3.5 years.

[Rotweiler]

A very good summary of EV vs ICE issues (including the biggie, fires...).  Well worth the listen/read (produced by CBC Canada).

 

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/previews/sCmSyyss

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

12 minutes ago, Rotweiler said:

A very good summary of EV vs ICE issues (including the biggie, fires...).  Well worth the listen/read (produced by CBC Canada).

 

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/previews/sCmSyyss

 

 

Good video, ICE Cars 61 times more likely to catch fire than EV's.

 

On the issue of range, Norway is a cold country and leads the world in EV adoption with 79% of new vehicles sold being EV's last year.  They seem to cope with cold temperature range degradation ok.  Battery technology can be optimised for the local climate, that's why MG uses LFP here but offers NMC in the UK for those wanting better range and cold weather performance.

[KhunLA]

On 7/26/2023 at 5:39 PM, Fruit Trader said:

Solar power is a great way to charge EV's but one cannot claim the power is free (no cost) until the value of  electricity produced exceeds the cost of solar equipment.

It is in my case, as an EV was not in the game plan, as we bought a new ICEV at the same time the house & solar were being built/installed.  

 

We charge with 'excess' solar.  Without the ฿240k govt incentive, a good chance we would not have bought an EV, as very happy with our ICEV. 

 

What thrifty shopper buys a new car, then sells it 2 yrs later ?  We kept all prior ICEV for 5-7 yrs, selling at the 125k-150k kms mark, not 40k kms.

 

The EV we'll keep till it dies, though we may die first.

 

No extra outlay of ฿ to accommodate charging the EV.  Without the EV, we still need the same size solar system to stay off the grid at night.  That there is so much extra during the day, is just a plus.

 

Sounds like 'free' to me.

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

฿240k govt incentive,

Well at least this explains why EV's are silly expensive.????

We are told they are cheaper to manufacture, use less parts etc. but they don't seem any less expensive than conventional cars.

[KhunLA]

6 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Well at least this explains why EV's are silly expensive.

That makes no sense at all.  EVs are no more expensive that comparative cars in the same class.

 

Considering the components, the added price between our MG ZS ICE & EV is quite justified.  Try buying 50kWh of battery for your solar system that has an 8 yr warranty.

 

Decent EV start at 549k, and at same price as the cheapest decent ICEV, with lower operating & maintenance cost.

 

Our EV without the govt incentive would cost the same as many ICE SUVs in the same class.

[KhunLA]

8 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Well at least this explains why EV's are silly expensive.????

We are told they are cheaper to manufacture, use less parts etc. but they don't seem any less expensive than conventional cars.

I never heard anyone say they are cheaper to manufacture.  Cheaper to operate (in TH) and maintain.

 

No more or less expensive than ICEV, with or without the incentives.  Most incentives only 150k max now.

 

Only MG offered 240k & 247k incentives in the beginning, and only on 2 models.

[BKKBike09]

I like driving cars / bikes fast. That's invariably meant ICE powered. Today's ICE represents 100+ years of evolution - but it's still basically 100+ year old tech.

 

Massive amounts of money and brainpower are being focused, globally, on the EV industry and frankly it's all still early days. But I'm sure an EV brought to market 10 years from now will be hugely different from an EV on the market today in terms of battery capacity, charging time and safety.

 

Even three years ago I couldn't conceive of buying an EV. Now I have a cheap(ish) Chinese one and I'm generally very impressed. Sure it doesn't have the fueling convenience of an ICE but I'm coming round to the understanding that this just requires a little planning, and that many other features of an EV ride offset this considerably.

 

IMO tech and the times are moving on. That also means there's many new drivers who'll not have ICE experience, so will just accept the EV experience as the way things are. Can't resist the march of progress and all that.

 

[KhunLA]

45 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

EV industry and frankly it's all still early days....

 

... Sure it doesn't have the fueling convenience of an ICE 

 

Good post, though have to disagree on 2 points.   

... been producing EVs for decades, and fairly perfected at this point.  Just need to tweak the batteries for weight to range improvements.

 

... EVs so much more convenient to top up, unless on the road, which is a very small portion of our driving.

 

Relaxing when topping up while O&A is a more than a fair trade to topping up a ICEV weekly at petrol station.  Plugging in at home takes far less time and less expensive than fueling an ICEV at the stations, with no convenient option to fuel at home.

[BKKBike09]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Good post, though have to disagree on 2 points.   

... been producing EVs for decades, and fairly perfected at this point.  Just need to tweak the batteries for weight to range improvements.

 

... EVs so much more convenient to top up, unless on the road, which is a very small portion of our driving.

Thanks, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the current industry status in that I believe 1) EVs are by no means 'fairly perfected at this point', and 2) batteries need a lot more than a 'tweak' to improve range etc.

 

But all that will come, and come pretty fast.

 

I suspect that in a generation (20 years) people will look at mainstream Lithium / Nickel / Cobalt EV battery tech as belonging in a museum. 

 

It also doesn't help that global reserves of key current ores are concentrated in places like DRC, Russia and China. 

 

Seems like some pretty amazing ideas being explored right now:

 

https://www.netscribes.com/ev-battery-technology-evolution/

https://www.azocleantech.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1651

 

 

 

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

I suspect that in a generation (20 years) people will look at mainstream Lithium / Nickel / Cobalt EV battery tech as belonging in a museum. 

The major players producing batteries are putting out mostly LFP batteries already.  May even have a solid state battery in mass production the next 5 yrs.

[Fruit Trader]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:51 AM, KhunLA said:

It is in my case, as an EV was not in the game plan, as we bought a new ICEV at the same time the house & solar were being built/installed.  

 

We charge with 'excess' solar.  Without the ฿240k govt incentive, a good chance we would not have bought an EV, as very happy with our ICEV. 

 

What thrifty shopper buys a new car, then sells it 2 yrs later ?  We kept all prior ICEV for 5-7 yrs, selling at the 125k-150k kms mark, not 40k kms.

 

The EV we'll keep till it dies, though we may die first.

 

No extra outlay of ฿ to accommodate charging the EV.  Without the EV, we still need the same size solar system to stay off the grid at night.  That there is so much extra during the day, is just a plus.

 

Sounds like 'free' to me.

Solar power is a great way to charge EV's but one cannot claim the power is free (no cost) until the value of  electricity produced exceeds the cost of solar equipment.

[VocalNeal]

On 7/28/2023 at 9:07 AM, BKKBike09 said:

but it's still basically 100+ year old tech.

I don't think we were getting 178hp per litre 100 years ago. ????

[BKKBike09]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

On 7/28/2023 at 9:07 AM, BKKBike09 said:

but it's still basically 100+ year old tech.

I don't think we were getting 178hp per litre 100 years ago. ????

No, we weren't. However I said: "Today's ICE represents 100+ years of evolution - but it's still basically 100+ year old tech".

 

The 100+ years of evolution may give 178bhp/l but an ICE is still at heart a 100+ year old technology - some method of mixing/compressing fuel and air, igniting that, harnessing the explosive energy and disposing of the waste gases. 

 

 

[VocalNeal]

^ OK then, the technology of an EV predates that as electric cars came first. A battery or batteries, a couple of wires and an electric motor.

[Issanman]

29 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

No, we weren't. However I said: "Today's ICE represents 100+ years of evolution - but it's still basically 100+ year old tech".

 

The 100+ years of evolution may give 178bhp/l but an ICE is still at heart a 100+ year old technology - some method of mixing/compressing fuel and air, igniting that, harnessing the explosive energy and disposing of the waste gases. 

 

 

The first car to exceed 60 mph was an electric car in 1899.

The EVs are also 100+ year old tech.

So what is your point?

 

[KhunLA]

5 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Solar power is a great way to charge EV's but one cannot claim the power is free (no cost) until the value of  electricity produced exceeds the cost of solar equipment.

Repeating yourself in red doesn't make it true.  

 

Apparently you have some reading comprehensions issues.

 

Have a nice day, BYE BYE

[motdaeng]

5 hours ago, Fruit Trader said:

Solar power is a great way to charge EV's but one cannot claim the power is free (no cost) until the value of  electricity produced exceeds the cost of solar equipment.

only a small fraction of people are installing solar panels solely because of having an electric car.

 

the primary motivation for going solar is to reduce the house-electrical bill. moreover, most solar systems

generate surplus energy, which can be harnessed to charge an electric car. this surplus energy can

essentially be considered as free electricity, providing an additional incentive for adopting solar power ...

[Fruit Trader]

34 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

most solar systems

generate surplus energy, which can be harnessed to charge an electric car. this surplus energy can

essentially be considered as free electricity

Yes when the solar investment has paid back. Until that point arrives, surplus yes, free at no cost, no.

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Repeating yourself in red doesn't make it true.  

 

Apparently you have some reading comprehensions issues.

 

Have a nice day, BYE BYE

No matter how much of your personal story you throw at it, my claim remains true.

 

I must say though, your EV obsession and ramblings are somewhat entertaining.

 

PS
English is my second language, so I guess comprehension issues are possible. Having said that, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

No matter how much of your personal story you throw at it, my claim remains true.

 

I must say though, your EV obsession and ramblings are somewhat entertaining.

 

PS
English is my second language, so I guess comprehension issues are possible. Having said that, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I thought it was more Chinese MG obsession ramblings.......????

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

only a small fraction of people are installing solar panels solely because of having an electric car.

 

the primary motivation for going solar is to reduce the house-electrical bill. moreover, most solar systems

generate surplus energy, which can be harnessed to charge an electric car. this surplus energy can

essentially be considered as free electricity, providing an additional incentive for adopting solar power ...

Spot on.

 

Our system will easily generate 50kWh a day, even on a partly cloudy day, and we only need 20-30kWh day.

Leaving a hell of a lot of excess / free energy we don't need.  

 

He ignores the part of us buying a new ICEV at the same time.  Which of course, nobody would buy if installing solar and planned on buying an EV, when their old car was running just fine.

 

So fine & trustworthy, we gave it to our daughter.

 

We've driven about 10k kms, locally on solar in 10 months.   So 1000 kms a month, 360 per charge, 3 full charges per month = 138.9kWh/30 days = 4.63kWh a day.  

 

That's FREE energy in my world.

[In the jungle]

17 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Spot on.

 

Our system will easily generate 50kWh a day, even on a partly cloudy day, and we only need 20-30kWh day.

Leaving a hell of a lot of excess / free energy we don't need.  

 

He ignores the part of us buying a new ICEV at the same time.  Which of course, nobody would buy if installing solar and planned on buying an EV, when their old car was running just fine.

 

So fine & trustworthy, we gave it to our daughter.

 

We've driven about 10k kms, locally on solar in 10 months.   So 1000 kms a month, 360 per charge, 3 full charges per month = 138.9kWh/30 days = 4.63kWh a day.  

 

That's FREE energy in my world.

So you sized your solar system wrong?

[KhunLA]

17 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

So you sized your solar system wrong?

No, not during rainy season, as we use 7 or 8 kWh overnight, not being conservative.  We've also had krap days, where it took all day to almost top up the ESSs, while using conservatively.

 

We need 6kWh a day, even if we are not home.

 not a good production day

 

Actually sized it just about right, though we did add a second ESS, just for longevity.  Instead of taking it down to 35%, now only down to 60% at worse.

 

[In the jungle]

11 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

No, not during rainy season, as we use 7 or 8 kWh overnight, not being conservative.  We've also had krap days, where it took all day to almost top up the ESSs, while using conservatively.

 

We need 6kWh a day, even if we are not home.

 not a good production day

 

Actually sized it just about right, though we did add a second ESS, just for longevity.  Instead of taking it down to 35%, now only down to 60% at worse.

 

OK.

 

We use on average 7 kwh per day here.  Presumably you run air con much of the time; or alternatively are smelting steel or running a desalination plant.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, In the jungle said:

OK.

 

We use on average 7 kwh per day here.  Presumably you run air con much of the time; or alternatively are smelting steel or running a desalination plant.

Yea, we're a wee bit abusive with the AC.   One is basically on 24/7, the other, at least 8 hrs a day.  As stated, we use 20-30kWh a day.

 

Still leaves plenty for the EVs though.

[KhunLA]

Actually savings for us, using our Solar for local driving and CSs while O&A

 

Using Petrol price of ฿38.08 / L

Using CS price of 7.5kWh

 

9 month total ... 14.5 kms

Local ... 10k kms ... ฿0

O&A ... 4.5k kms ... ฿4,883

 

IF using Petrol cost ... ฿39,440 - 4,883 =

฿34,557  Saved

 

July 29, 2023

PTT: 91: 38.08 baht/liter

Bangchak: 91: 38.08 baht/liter

Shell: 91: 38.58 baht/liter

PT: 91: 38.08 baht/liter

Source: price

[KhunLA]

Some final thoughts on ICEV vs EV.

Are they for everyone ... NO 

 

Do we love ours ... YES

The operating cost savings and fact we're not contributing to the local air pollution, along with the excellent performance, is well worth the extra ฿200k over the ICEV price, especially considering the added cost of the components.

 

Price 50kWh of quality ESS for a solar system, and ฿200k is a bargain.  Along with a better performing, longer lasting motor, needing minimal maintenance.  More savings.

 

Just the added performance is worth the extra buy in price, as driving is fun again, and not just going from point A - B.

 

Savings if not having solar, are still impressive.

14.5k kms @ 4kWh = ฿7460 vs ฿39,440. 

 

 ฿32,000 / ฿3,500 a month saved, that's a lot of beer.   Put the money in your pocket, or give it to Big Oil.  UP2U

 

Are we saving the planet, no, but it doesn't need saving, humans do.  Are they more eco friendly, probably, BUT, not as long as govt continue to energize the grid with fossil fuels.

 

EVs are not for the impatient folks when out on the road, but how often do most go O&A ?  But for some reason, those same people have no problem waiting around every week to top up the tank at the petrol station & then pay a premium price for that privilege.  Let that sink in, take as long as you need.  Don't hurt yourself.

 

PEACE OUT

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

The Gen.2 MG4 is out in the UK.  Larger wheels and nicer aero covers, 3rd headrest, roof is now body colour, new software with bigger buttons, one pedal driving option.

 

The dealers also have the X-Power versions as demonstrators.