Opinion: It is time Thais end the practice of demanding dowries from prospective spouses

[RobU]

Traditionally they are Not Dowries they are 'Bride Prices'

 

A Dowry is paid from the brides family to the husband who holds it in escrow for his wife. It must be given back to the wife to support her if he dies or he divorces her. The reason is that in cultures that use the dowry system the wife cannot inherit her husband's posessions, they go to the nearest relative adult male such as brother or son. She takes this dowry with her and it is given to any future husband to hold in escrow again. However such cultures consider divorced women to be tainted and they have difficulty finding new husbands unless they have a large dowry to give him.

 

In the Thai system the the Bride Price is paid from the husbands family to the brides mother and father as payment for her upbringing because she is now adopted into the husbands family (think of it as an adoption fee). The bigger the bride price the more respected the family are because the amount reflects the quality of the girls upbringing. It is only ever paid once. If she divorces from her husband she is not entitled to a penny of it. The reason it should not be paid for any subsequent marriage is that the brides mother and father have already been paid for her upbringing thus subsequent 'Bride Prices' demanded would be fraudulent behaviour in Thai traditional law.

 

Its only silly foreigners who don't know this difference are ripped off by the serial polyandrist women who get married and divorced routinely as a money making excercise.

 

In a nutshell

Dowry - Brides family Pays - Belongs to the bride

Bride Price - Husbands family pays - Belongs to the brides mother and father - The bride has no right to it whatsoever

 

In traditional practice the bride price is often used by the brides parents to throw the biggest party possible and invite the whole village to celibrate the wedding. Often today the bride price is paid up front to the brides family with great ceremony ( a matter of giving  face)  then it is quietly refunded back to the husband's family afterwards.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by RobU
spelling mistake

[bkk6060]

Has nothing to do with being a cheap charlie, it is all manipulation and shows weakness.

The weak clueless western male kicks in and guys pay.

I would never pay such a thing how dumb.

All foolish stupidity in my opinion guys that pay it should be ashamed.

Edited March 9, 2022 by bkk6060

[Andycoops]

Unfortunately I liken it to the buying and selling of cattle, a tradition that belongs in the dark ages along with many others. 

I won't accept a satang for my daughter but I suspect the missus might have other ideas, as or if it happens.

Could be a rocky point.

[anthobkk]

Sister of my wife asked 500k baht to her Thai husband at the time of their wedding. The guy also had to pay for the wedding but most of it was recovered from the guests' donations (300 people).

 

When it was my turn to get married, the mom of my wife asked for 1M THB, my wife is more educated than her daughter (bachelor from well-known uni and MBA in UK, mostly paid by her family)

 

After negotiation, I agreed to pay 500K THB and show a total of 1M in cash that would later be given back to me after the wedding. Her mom just wanted to be proud in front of the guests and family to show that the farang husband was able to pay that much.

 

What I didn't know, is that after a year of being married, her mom sent me back the 500K and also gave us a few rais of rubber trees in the south that generate a monthly income of around 30-45K. Of course, it's all in the name of my wife but we used that asset to negotiate a loan with the bank to buy our house in the suburb of Bangkok.  Her mom lives very modestly in her house in the south and I am super happy to take her on holidays with us, inviting her to nice restaurants, trips abroad and I even subscribed for very good health insurance in her name., which I am very happy to pay. 

 

I guess it all depends on the intention of your wife's family. In my case, her mom wanted to make sure I would be able to make her daughter safe and happy and she didn't want us to struggle in life if we had to pay back a dowry. 

 

Regarding her sister's husband, her mom bought them a house in a nice muu baan (after 3 years)

[WEBBYB808]

You mean its time they stopped the scam.  No self respecting Thai man would ever pay what some of you have paid.  If a ladies had a child, been married before, or worked a bar then there is no dowry even by their standards.  They will tell you it's all about face and proving you can provide.  They will tell you it's just for show and you will be refunded after wedding.  I know plenty who have fallen for this scam.  The dowry is to pay for their purity, and if you arent getting that why would you pay.? You dont have to pay.  If you can provide and take care of the lady that will be enough, but if you're a teacher then ... I had a couple try this on me, and I respectfully  said no way.  Well trust me they know if you're good and will take care, and if they say,"no!" then you know it was nothing more than a business  transaction  in the making.   I and many others did not pay and things worked out, but remember  theirs is a different  culture  you just have to balance.  With that said if shes a virgin never married then of course theres a dowry!

[WEBBYB808]

28 minutes ago, RobU said:

Traditionally they are Not Dowries they are 'Bride Prices'

 

A Dowry is paid from the brides family to the husband who holds it in escrow for his wife. It must be given back to the wife to support her if he dies or he divorces her. The reason is that in cultures that use the dowry system the wife cannot inherit her husband's posessions, they go to the nearest relative adult male such as brother or son. She takes this dowry with her and it is given to any future husband to hold in escrow again. However such cultures consider divorced women to be tainted and they have difficulty finding new husbands unless they have a large dowry to give him.

 

In the Thai system the the Bride Price is paid from the husbands family to the brides mother and father as payment for her upbringing because she is now adopted into the husbands family (think of it as an adoption fee). The bigger the bride price the more respected the family are because the amount reflects the quality of the girls upbringing. It is only ever paid once. If she divorces from her husband she is not entitled to a penny of it. The reason it should not be paid for any subsequent marriage is that the brides mother and father have already been paid for her upbringing thus subsequent 'Bride Prices' demanded would be fraudulent behaviour in Thai traditional law.

 

Its only silly foreigners who don't know this difference are ripped off by the serial polyandrist women who get married and divorced routinely as a money making excercise.

 

In a nutshell

Dowry - Brides family Pays - Belongs to the bride

Bride Price - Husbands family pays - Belongs to the brides mother and father - The bride has no right to it whatsoever

 

In traditional practice the bride price is often used by the brides parents to throw the biggest party possible and invite the whole village to celibrate the wedding. Often today the bride price is paid up front to the brides family with great ceremony ( a matter of giving  face)  then it is quietly refunded back to the husband's family afterwards.

 

Yeah!  Why would one ever pay high prices for an uneducated. lazy farm gil lacking of manners or dicipline?  Dont be conned.  If she not a virgin  then theres no dowry or bride price

[Rhys]

The tradition leave it to the families...

[Derek B]

10 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I believe in the poorer families the money/sinsod, is really just for show and is returned to the couple after ceremonies to help get them started. 

That is my understanding too.

However I also have heard that the sinsod failed to be returned to the couple as they were too poor to give it up - in this case the expected baby conceived whilst still at school failed to materialise as well (they soon parted ways).

 

[rwill]

Thailand is hardly the only country that has traditions for who pays for what for weddings.

[Cocobeach]

Both the partner should discuss over this. I am half chinese. So my mum oexpect a dowry. But I am very clear with my mum, it will just be a fair amount for customary purposes and not to expect much. I am not going to dry up my partner. His happiness is mine too.  We are just a couple of hardworking couple. So at the end of the day compromisation. 

[Lacessit]

Too easy. Not married, not going to be. My GF was married before. Sin sod is not applicable.

 

I was under the impression sin sod only applied when the bride was a virgin. I've had one of those, never again. If I was to get married again, I'd want prior proof of full-on female lust.

[it is what it is]

1 hour ago, RobU said:

Traditionally they are Not Dowries they are 'Bride Prices'

 

A Dowry is paid from the brides family to the husband who holds it in escrow for his wife. It must be given back to the wife to support her if he dies or he divorces her. The reason is that in cultures that use the dowry system the wife cannot inherit her husband's posessions, they go to the nearest relative adult male such as brother or son. She takes this dowry with her and it is given to any future husband to hold in escrow again. However such cultures consider divorced women to be tainted and they have difficulty finding new husbands unless they have a large dowry to give him.

 

In the Thai system the the Bride Price is paid from the husbands family to the brides mother and father as payment for her upbringing because she is now adopted into the husbands family (think of it as an adoption fee). The bigger the bride price the more respected the family are because the amount reflects the quality of the girls upbringing. It is only ever paid once. If she divorces from her husband she is not entitled to a penny of it. The reason it should not be paid for any subsequent marriage is that the brides mother and father have already been paid for her upbringing thus subsequent 'Bride Prices' demanded would be fraudulent behaviour in Thai traditional law.

 

Its only silly foreigners who don't know this difference are ripped off by the serial polyandrist women who get married and divorced routinely as a money making excercise.

 

In a nutshell

Dowry - Brides family Pays - Belongs to the bride

Bride Price - Husbands family pays - Belongs to the brides mother and father - The bride has no right to it whatsoever

 

In traditional practice the bride price is often used by the brides parents to throw the biggest party possible and invite the whole village to celibrate the wedding. Often today the bride price is paid up front to the brides family with great ceremony ( a matter of giving  face)  then it is quietly refunded back to the husband's family afterwards.

 

 

that's the tradition, but it is fading fast. my thai friends, granted are all educated, middle class professionals, did not pay any money to marry their wife, for some money was handed over but it was a symbolic sum and act and the money was returned.

 

it seems to me it is only the inexperienced and, probably, uneducated westerners who seem to be hoodwinked and ego boosted because a female has shown interest in them. it's pretty sad really.

[DJ54]

IMO dowries should be optional.

 

on another note ... (based on my experience in NE village) grandparents watching the grandkids while mom or pop or both work in the big city should change if not solely for education reasons.. based on my experience no to poor education have a difficult time educating the children. ... and some don’t try

to educate...

 

OR teach the importance of education to caretakers if their thinking old age meal ticket..give them 

the best education possible... so the meals aren’t <deleted>... .. 

 

[Lizzy Duang]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Thai wedding vows, he promises to provide for her, she promises to serve him.

I read there are usually no vows at all, so you have to make them up yourself if you wish to have some. And I guess a Westerner would make them rather reciprocal. https://www.thaizer.com/traditional-thai-wedding/

 

[Doctor Tom]

3 hours ago, johnbarpic said:

You don't do it in your own country so don't do it in this one

Then to advance your blinkered view, don't marry a Thai, stick to your own pasty faced, over weight, beer drinking,  women.  I'm pretty sure that the Thai ladies will get over their disappointment at not having a farang slobbering all over them.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Lizzy Duang said:

I read there are usually no vows at all, so you have to make them up yourself if you wish to have some. And I guess a Westerner would make them rather reciprocal. https://www.thaizer.com/traditional-thai-wedding/

 

You didn't ask the monks! 

And as a white guy I was entirely happy with her vowing to serve me. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by BritManToo

[BangkokReady]

9 hours ago, JimTripper said:

The dowry is a way of feeling out whether a partner is going to be a burden on other family members.

Wouldn't knowing their income be a better measure?  And who says paying a dowry guarantees an income in the future?

[ivor bigun]

3 hours ago, ed strong said:

I know what you are saying however in Thailand prostitution is a way of life for many.. the only option.

 

In the UK most i have seen are generally ex or current addicts, or are very hot but require thousands (£) per night

 

Either way i certianly wouldnt be giving any money in the form a sin sod or dowery or to a UK prostitute or a thai womens family,

 

To be fair if i did marry a Thai i would look after the family but not through a sin sot.

Please dont ask me how i know (no its not through sleeping with them and it was many many years ago) but most of the hookers i knew in the UK were if you saw them walking down the street looked like very decent young women ,and where they worked ,they were nice women in a very nice enviroment ,one even went on later to have a job you would never believe me if i told you , On is now married and the hight of respectabilaty ,oh the tales i could tell . 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Sweetheart's family was middle class but had a mortgage. I was proud to pay it off. Had to buy her a house, of course, but refused a car in Bangkok. Haven't bought her gold in a couple of decades as prices rise. 30 years of happiness is worth any treasure.

 

If the family is well-off, they usually return the sin sod or buy the house for their daughter. It's a good system, not like the bride-slave dowry in India.

[RobU]

38 minutes ago, it is what it is said:

 

that's the tradition, but it is fading fast. my thai friends, granted are all educated, middle class professionals, did not pay any money to marry their wife, for some money was handed over but it was a symbolic sum and act and the money was returned.

 

it seems to me it is only the inexperienced and, probably, uneducated westerners who seem to be hoodwinked and ego boosted because a female has shown interest in them. it's pretty sad really.

Yes like the dowry system it is an honourable and rational tradition if it is applied properly. Unfortunately neither system is these days. They have both been corrupted by the influx of western values and greed.

[kingstonkid]

6 hours ago, vandeventer said:

And it's been going for years, it's funny how the Thai's like take all the good[ for them] things from other countries. This one comes from India and  it has been there for centuries. A guy in my village had 2 girls that where getting married 1 went for 4 baht of gold and the other went for just 2 baht of gold. It seems the dowry here is based only on looks.

This has been going on around the world since probably the start of time.

 

The difference in this is the amount.  HISO and wannabe HISO live in a different world.  Money is the only thing they know.  I am sure that this was not just sprung on the guy.  I am also willing to be that his parents had him see a lawyer for the NON DOWRY thing called a PRE NUP.

 

The 10 million may be her families response to the PRENUP that would leave her destitute if he dumped her. 

 

Either way I am willing to be there is more to the story than the writer is saying.

 

 

[Lite Beer]

If people are stupid enough to buy a Wife.

So be it. Up to them.

 

[Elkski]

12 hours ago, Hummin said:

 

Couldn't figure out how to delete quote box.   

I think the sin sod tradition remains in tattered strands.    When girls dream of their wedding it is highly influenced by advertising. The debeers diamond, white dress, thai dress, or now both. A big sinsod shows her value, the man's wealth and a measure of his love.  I think most girls are raised to  dream they are worth a big one.   It brings face to mom. It's like having an iPhone. It's status. Why do big sin sod amounts show up in media?  

It was a rocky time for us. I started my negotiations at zero. It turns out my wife was asking for what she perceived her mom would be proud of.  I asked her to involve mom in the discussion and mom said she didn't want anything other than her daughter happy.   Case closed. Except we haven't been back to Thailand where I am not sure the cost of all the booze and pig will be.  Really hate to encourage more village drunkenness. 

I plan to teach the village how to smoke the pig(s) low and slow BBQ style with lots of smoke flavor. That will be my gift. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Elkski

[natway09]

Up here mainly for the ceremony, new gold & new money tradition

but I have never seen it not returned to the groom's family

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, anthobkk said:

Sister of my wife asked 500k baht to her Thai husband at the time of their wedding. The guy also had to pay for the wedding but most of it was recovered from the guests' donations (300 people).

 

When it was my turn to get married, the mom of my wife asked for 1M THB, my wife is more educated than her daughter (bachelor from well-known uni and MBA in UK, mostly paid by her family)

 

After negotiation, I agreed to pay 500K THB and show a total of 1M in cash that would later be given back to me after the wedding. Her mom just wanted to be proud in front of the guests and family to show that the farang husband was able to pay that much.

 

What I didn't know, is that after a year of being married, her mom sent me back the 500K and also gave us a few rais of rubber trees in the south that generate a monthly income of around 30-45K. Of course, it's all in the name of my wife but we used that asset to negotiate a loan with the bank to buy our house in the suburb of Bangkok.  Her mom lives very modestly in her house in the south and I am super happy to take her on holidays with us, inviting her to nice restaurants, trips abroad and I even subscribed for very good health insurance in her name., which I am very happy to pay. 

 

I guess it all depends on the intention of your wife's family. In my case, her mom wanted to make sure I would be able to make her daughter safe and happy and she didn't want us to struggle in life if we had to pay back a dowry. 

 

Regarding her sister's husband, her mom bought them a house in a nice muu baan (after 3 years)

Your MiL sounds like a winner.

 

Is she available?

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Lite Beer said:

If people are stupid enough to buy a Wife.

So be it. Up to them.

 

No. Stupid are the ones that buy two (or more).

[Stargeezr]

I met my Thai wife in Canada, married her, and lived with her and her 2 older sisters for 20 years.

  I got tired of that scene, and am now enjoying the single life again. No more marriage for me.

  I do feel lucky not to have to paid much of a dowry, only a hotel room before the night of our wedding, for my to be wife, her sister and niece

to enjoy.  I did not enjoy some of the heart ache that happened during the last 20 years of my life, but at least

I did not sit alone all those years. I liked your post Smedly, lots of good points made.

[BusyB]

12 hours ago, sanuk711 said:

Another thread about Sin-Sot........ I guess its been a while.

 

So is Bris̄uthṭhi̒ ---(Borrasit) now off the list of what adds up to a good dowry

It used to be number 1 if you were Thai man.

 

 

 

True it's been ages . Probably the pandemic lowered demand ...

 

[BusyB]

When I married in Germany at a tender age, halfway through the party my new father-in-law came up to me face to face and next to my freshly sworn wife, and counted a fistful of high-denomination Deutschmarks into my hand one by one. I was pretty thunderstruck - it was a first (and unfortunately last) in my life. I asked him what it was for and he said it was the dowry I got for marrying her. 

I'm a bit of an elephant in a china shop sometimes but I managed to hold back from asking him if he was happy to be rid of her, and thanked him instead. The thought of money had never crossed my mind till then. 

(I did share the joke with my wife after ???? though 555)

[Damrongsak]

I gave my MIL 10 K Baht (then about $500 USD) for the wedding dinner & whatnot.  We got probably a few thousand Baht in gifts but we gave that to MIL for future use. 

 

Many years later we bought a couple lots and built a house that she stayed in for a number of years.  So they get you sooner or later. ????