3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Why don't you do the annual report online?

 

I must of missed that bulletin. Originally, only in person or via an agent was acceptable. Then, I believe, by mail was allowed. So, now, online?

The TM95 form for annual LTR visa holders who have been resident for 1-year (i.e. have not left the Kingdom) is attached

TM.95 blank.pdf

Whats the Thai immigrations obsession with being 50 years old to get a visa

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

I must of missed that bulletin. Originally, only in person or via an agent was acceptable. Then, I believe, by mail was allowed. So, now, online?

 

Below is my 26 Sep 2023 bulletin (a.k.a., 26 Sep AseanNow post) based on my facetime with BoI and Chamchuri Sq Immigration regarding the annual address reporting. 

 

Bottomline: in-person (or your authorized agent) or by mail to Chamchuri Sq Immigration....no online capability yet for 1 year reporting.  A person can try their local/nearby immigration office which may or may do it....must use the TM95 form which is for 1 year reporting. 

 

Was hoping that by now some folks you got their LTR visa in the Sep-Nov 2022 and hadn't left the country since getting the visa would have reported whether they was able to accomplish the report online or at their nearby immigration office, but I haven't seen anything.

 

 

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

I must of missed that bulletin. Originally, only in person or via an agent was acceptable. Then, I believe, by mail was allowed. So, now, online?

No bulletin just what I was told third hand... could easily be wrong

3 hours ago, mudcat said:

The TM95 form for annual LTR visa holders who have been resident for 1-year (i.e. have not left the Kingdom) is attached

TM.95 blank.pdf 179.09 kB · 3 downloads

Thankyou for that document.  I'll make a note to save it. .... I guess in case needed, I will have to dig around to get the exact Chamchuri Sq Immigration office address.

 

I suspect I won't need such thou for some years.  I'm age-69 but I hope to keep traveling out of the country for short visits once or twice a year for the next 5 years and possibly longer.  Fortunately in setting up the LTR visa, BoI had the foresight to allow "the counter" for one's one-year report to be 'reset' each time one left Thailand and returned.  I obtained my LTR in June-2023, but left the country in August-2023 and did not return to Thailand until the last day in September-2023.  Hence my 'report' is not due until end-September-2024, and I am likely to exit/return to Thailand long before then.  

 

Given the 90-day on-line reporting rarely worked for myself, I find this 1-year reporting (and it being reset after each journey out/into Thailand) a bigger psychological benefit than I anticipated.

Here is a sheet of mailing labels to Immigration you can print on label stock.  Do one for home and you are set for the decade 

Immigration - LTR Unit.docx

On 11/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, Startmeup said:

Whats the Thai immigrations obsession with being 50 years old to get a visa

No one knows maybe they thought it to be imossible to be 48 and have a pension or sufficient money to not bother to work...

 

I also wonder why they are fixated on pension income instead of wealth being sufficient. Why do I need to show income if I show already 1 M in assets, no one knows. I know a lot of guys that invest for decades without touching their money apart from 40K USD per year. Alas they are ineligble for LTR wealthy pensioner because they cannot show 80K USD income.

What is the LTR email address for questions?

 

I want to confirm that the annual report is not possible via the internet.

54 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

What is the LTR email address for questions?

 

ltr [at] boi.go.th

17 minutes ago, aublumberg said:

ltr [at] boi.go.th

Thank you

On 11/12/2023 at 1:30 PM, Startmeup said:

Whats the Thai immigrations obsession with being 50 years old to get a visa

My speculation is they figure anyone over age-50 won't live as long as someone under age-50.  Hence (if there is inflation) it is 'safer' for BoI to set a specific income/wealth that is lower for those age 50 and older than it is for such a limit for those who are younger.   They likely believed, once they set a 'lower wealth' criteria for "Wealthy Pensioners", as opposed to a higher 'wealth criteria' for Wealthy Global Citizens, they then needed to select an age limit to assign as a demarcation.   Since age-50 is used for other immigration visas, they possibly that that was a good age to select.

 

Again that is just my speculation as to what they may have been considering.

.

5 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

What is the LTR email address for questions?

goto https://ltr.boi.go.th

click on "CONTACT"

Very quick replies to my questions.

 

 

14 hours ago, stat said:

No one knows maybe they thought it to be imossible to be 48 and have a pension or sufficient money to not bother to work...

 

I also wonder why they are fixated on pension income instead of wealth being sufficient. Why do I need to show income if I show already 1 M in assets, no one knows. I know a lot of guys that invest for decades without touching their money apart from 40K USD per year. Alas they are ineligble for LTR wealthy pensioner because they cannot show 80K USD income.

AS it's name, LTR/WP  (Wealthy Pensioners) indicates, they want pensioners.  Now, from what I read here, some people think they should launch an LTR/YWP (Younger Wealthy Parasites), for  those educated  young ones who  contributed to society exclusively through gambling.

17 hours ago, stat said:

No one knows maybe they thought it to be imossible to be 48 and have a pension or sufficient money to not bother to work...

 

I also wonder why they are fixated on pension income instead of wealth being sufficient. Why do I need to show income if I show already 1 M in assets, no one knows. I know a lot of guys that invest for decades without touching their money apart from 40K USD per year. Alas they are ineligble for LTR wealthy pensioner because they cannot show 80K USD income.

 

Its a good point - and my assumption is that they want proof of more than just wealth. They also want proof of cash flow.  Its possible to be very wealthy but with cash flow so low (due to the type of investment/wealth that one has) that one has very little money to spend.  So I speculate (and speculate is the 'operative word' ) that proof of one's cash flow is also very important in their criteria.  They want the foreigner to spend money in Thailand, and if a foreigner can't access their wealth easily while at the same time the foreigner has small cash flow, it means that the foreigner will not be spending  very much of their money in Thailand.

 

For the Wealthy Pensioner LTR category, $80K US$ equivalent annual income, that full amount is not necessary if one has $250K US$ equivalent investment in Thailand (such as ownership in a foreign freehold condominium that is worth that amount), in which case $40K US$ equivalent annual income will suffice. 

 

But again, I suspect its not just proof of one's total wealth that they want - they also want proof of one's cash flow .... At least that is my speculation - and it being speculation means I could be wrong.

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

Its a good point - and my assumption is that they want proof of more than just wealth. They also want proof of cash flow.  Its possible to be very wealthy but with cash flow so low (due to the type of investment/wealth that one has) that one has very little money to spend.  So I speculate (and speculate is the 'operative word' ) that proof of one's cash flow is also very important in their criteria.  They want the foreigner to spend money in Thailand, and if a foreigner can't access their wealth easily while at the same time the foreigner has small cash flow, it means that the foreigner will not be spending  very much of their money in Thailand.

 

For the Wealthy Pensioner LTR category, $80K US$ equivalent annual income, that full amount is not necessary if one has $250K US$ equivalent investment in Thailand (such as ownership in a foreign freehold condominium that is worth that amount), in which case $40K US$ equivalent annual income will suffice. 

 

But again, I suspect its not just proof of one's total wealth that they want - they also want proof of one's cash flow .... At least that is my speculation - and it being speculation means I could be wrong.

Thanks for yor post! The problem with the cash flow line of reasoning is that cash flow does not equal the willingnes to spend it. It is not even about cash flow as I explicitly asked BOI do equity sales count towards to 80K goal and they said no, only gains count as income. So far only about 1000 application for wealthy pensioners ltr visa, the reason is obvious.

50 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! The problem with the cash flow line of reasoning is that cash flow does not equal the willingnes to spend it. It is not even about cash flow as I explicitly asked BOI do equity sales count towards to 80K goal and they said no, only gains count as income. So far only about 1000 application for wealthy pensioners ltr visa, the reason is obvious.

 

Good point - I believe thou (as you found out) is that they won't accept an equity sale as the type of regular/consistent cash flow they are looking for.  I speculate they have specific criteria for consistent/regular cash flow (ie income), and equity sales do not nominally satisfy them as being consistent enough - which is not to say its not cash flow - rather its just to say they won't accept such.

 

Reference the 'willingness to spend' that applies to all the LTR visas even if one meets the requirements to their 100% satisfaction. One can be a billionaire, get the LTR visa, be able to prove an income of millions every month, and yet never spend a cent in Thailand.  So they can only do their best and try to ensure one has the consistent incoming cash (and also other wealth) such that they are happy (based on their requirements) that one has the means to spend.  They can not force one to spend one's money.   When it comes to equities, it reads to me that they are very reluctant to accept very much associated with equities.  Possibly dividends / interest may be an exception to their reluctance.

 

It reminds me of my efforts to prove self insurance.  One has to prove > $100K US$ equivalent in a bank account for self health insurance.  I provided proof of an equity trading account that had such amount in cash and they refused to accept it, because it was an equity trading account.   I then provided proof of a self directed (by me) registered government retirement savings plan, that also exceeded the >$100K US$ equivalent in cash, but because I was allowed to purchase equities within that registered retirement savings account, they would not accept that as meeting their >$100K US$ cash amount for self health insurance. 

 

They appear very reluctant to accept equity accounts for some of their self insurance and also reluctant to accept equity sales as income (ie as a consistent  'cash flow' ) for their requirements. 

 

They appear to me to be very cautious in their approval when it comes equities (or equity accounts) meeting some of their requirements.  When one holds equities (as a stock) there can be good times and bad times to sell, and  I guess they struggle to believe one will regularly sell equities to meet what they wish to see as a consistent income.  

On 11/13/2023 at 5:46 AM, stat said:

No one knows maybe they thought it to be imossible to be 48 and have a pension or sufficient money to not bother to work...

 

I also wonder why they are fixated on pension income instead of wealth being sufficient. Why do I need to show income if I show already 1 M in assets, no one knows. I know a lot of guys that invest for decades without touching their money apart from 40K USD per year. Alas they are ineligble for LTR wealthy pensioner because they cannot show 80K USD income.

If they have that kind of assets then they can apply for the LTR-WGC visa, but then the assets, a certain amount must be in Thailand.

10 hours ago, ThailandRyan said:

If they have that kind of assets then they can apply for the LTR-WGC visa, but then the assets, a certain amount must be in Thailand.

 

Yes, although for LTR-WGC they'd still need to show income of at least $80k/year for two years and invest $500k in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property.  https://ltr.boi.go.th/#what

 

If they can wait until they're over 50 years old and can show between $40-$80k in income, they could then apply for the LTR-WP and only invest $250k in Thai government bonds, foreign direct investment, or Thai property.

 

 

 

 

 

Embassy in germany even did not accept a brokerage account for an Oa visa back in the day. The fixation on income ist ridicoulous but nothing we can do about as tit. We are forced to pay taxes in a high tax country just to proof income. Some countries, germany included only have a witholding tax and no formal federal tax proof so again no formal proof of income in the case of cap gains. Boi said maybe they accept it. 

7 hours ago, stat said:

Some countries, germany included only have a witholding tax and no formal federal tax proof so again no formal proof of income in the case of cap gains. Boi said maybe they accept it. 

 

For the LTR visa, I think the reason why the BoI like to see a tax return, is because it provides a proof of income.  I receive a German pension and Germany (Deutsche Rentenversicherung) does provide me a letter every year stating how much pension they provided for that year.   I believe that official Deutsche Rentenversicherung letter to be pretty reasonable proof.  Deutsche Rentenversicherung specifically provides this for taxation paperwork purposes.

 

I did not provide that letter to BoI for proof of some of my income because (1) I did not want to bother obtaining an official translation from German into English, and (2) I had sufficient pension funds from elsewhere to meet the required > $40k US$/year for the LTR-WP ( and also used my condo in Thailand and some Thai government bonds to meet the $250K US equivalent investment).

 

Still - I believe (speculate) that BoI would accept that Deutsche Rentenversicherung letter if I had needed it to show more income to meet the $40K US equivalent criteria.

29 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

For the LTR visa, I think the reason why the BoI like to see a tax return, is because it provides a proof of income.  I receive a German pension and Germany (Deutsche Rentenversicherung) does provide me a letter every year stating how much pension they provided for that year.   I believe that official Deutsche Rentenversicherung letter to be pretty reasonable proof.  Deutsche Rentenversicherung specifically provides this for taxation paperwork purposes.

 

I did not provide that letter to BoI for proof of some of my income because (1) I did not want to bother obtaining an official translation from German into English, and (2) I had sufficient pension funds from elsewhere to meet the required > $40k US$/year for the LTR-WP ( and also used my condo in Thailand and some Thai government bonds to meet the $250K US equivalent investment).

 

Still - I believe (speculate) that BoI would accept that Deutsche Rentenversicherung letter if I had needed it to show more income to meet the $40K US equivalent criteria.

Thanks for your post! As I do not draw a classical pension I cannot use such a letter unfortunately, neither do I have a condo. This whole nonsense about income does not make much sense but TiT and immigration. I am very interessed to hear how you invested in TH bonds (bank, broker in TH etc) and what the costs and interests is. Thanks!

On 11/14/2023 at 2:40 PM, oldcpu said:

Its a good point - and my assumption is that they want proof of more than just wealth. They also want proof of cash flow.  Its possible to be very wealthy but with cash flow so low (due to the type of investment/wealth that one has) that one has very little money to spend.  So I speculate (and speculate is the 'operative word' ) that proof of one's cash flow is also very important in their criteria.  They want the foreigner to spend money in Thailand, and if a foreigner can't access their wealth easily while at the same time the foreigner has small cash flow, it means that the foreigner will not be spending  very much of their money in Thailand.

 

For the Wealthy Pensioner LTR category, $80K US$ equivalent annual income, that full amount is not necessary if one has $250K US$ equivalent investment in Thailand (such as ownership in a foreign freehold condominium that is worth that amount), in which case $40K US$ equivalent annual income will suffice. 

 

But again, I suspect its not just proof of one's total wealth that they want - they also want proof of one's cash flow .... At least that is my speculation - and it being speculation means I could be wrong.

I respectfully disagree.  My hypothesis is that they just could not intellectually grasp that somebody can be very rich without having a huge taxable income and that the really rich people moreover generally have lots of opportunities to structure things such that they do not pay a lot of taxes.  These criteria were defined by some bureaucrats very remote from all this.

 

 

On 11/14/2023 at 4:22 PM, stat said:

BOI do equity sales count towards to 80K goal and they said no, only gains count as income.

And they also do not like gains very much if they are significant.  They will then ask to see the gains for many years and given market volatility the gains were probably not constant or at some point of time were even losses and then they will hold this against you.

38 minutes ago, stat said:

Thanks for your post! As I do not draw a classical pension I cannot use such a letter unfortunately, neither do I have a condo.

What you can do is use some of your funds to buy annuities of the appropriate amount.  This would then meet their criteria.  But as this is probably a really poor investment, you are likely to save money by just forgetting about the LTR visa and buy an Elite visa instead.

1 minute ago, K2938 said:

What you can do is use some of your funds to buy annuities of the appropriate amount.  While probably being a pretty poor investment idea, this would then meet their criteria.

 

I bought an insurance policy for my LTR visa which I will probably never use sometimes these things are the cost of getting things done?

2 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I bought an insurance policy for my LTR visa which I will probably never use sometimes these things are the cost of getting things done?

Indeed.  But it is a shame that you had to do this.  And the more unnecessary hurdles they erect thereby, the less people will apply for an LTR visa.

23 minutes ago, K2938 said:

And they also do not like gains very much if they are significant.  They will then ask to see the gains for many years and given market volatility the gains were probably not constant or at some point of time were even losses and then they will hold this against you.

Thanks for your post! Your post saved me a lot of times! Not in my wildest dreams would I have considered what you described. My idea was to come up with a bank statement where I show 1 or 2 trades with 80K gain. A german tax declaration is not understandable even to a German and does not show any cap gains as they are handled at bank level.

 

Another gentlemen in the tax thread described that they asked him for every! account statement since account opening which was in his case 30+ years old but then they relented. I think my way forward is either with the defacto 2 year OA Visas and then LTR or go for the Philippines. Thanks again!

25 minutes ago, K2938 said:

What you can do is use some of your funds to buy annuities of the appropriate amount.  This would then meet their criteria.  But as this is probably a really poor investment, you are likely to save money by just forgetting about the LTR visa and buy an Elite visa instead.

Only reason left for me for an LTR is the tax savings if these savings really come to pass. I concur that an investment in bonds is not a really great idea. Maybe I go with OA and realise some gains in the 2 years but then again as they are not transmitted for obvious reasons I do not have a tax declaration from TH to qualify for the LTR

On 11/15/2023 at 11:37 PM, stat said:

 I am very interessed to hear how you invested in TH bonds (bank, broker in TH etc) and what the costs and interests is. Thanks!

Investing in the Thai government bonds was one of the more difficult aspects for me to obtain the LTR-WP visa.

 

I went (with my Thai wife) to a number of different banks to see if I could purchase bonds through them, and in the end, Bangkok Bank was the only one that would facilitate the selling of Thai government bonds to me, if I had the appropriate bank account with the necessary funds (for the bond purchase) in the account.  We had to talk to the head manager of this specific branch of Bangkok Bank, who stated I could buy such a bond ONLY if I had a foreign "pink-ID" card and "yellow book", which I had.  I do not know if such is nominally required but he insisted on it. So please do not shoot the messenger.

 

So I transferred a couple of million THB into Bankgok Bank account (as the amount I transferred was all the additional amount (above the nominal amount I had in the bank) that I needed for the bonds to achieve the $250K US$ equiv investment in Thailand) ... and I waited for the next announcement of a sale of Thai government bonds, which came up in December of last year.  Through Bangkok Bank I placed an order for the bonds, which took a lot of time at the counter to place said order.

 

Possibly what took the most time at the counter was they wanted a Thai tax-ID to enter into the online bond purchase entry form.  To the best of my knowledge I have no such number. The person at the counter started making noises that i could not likely then buy such a bond when I pointed out the bank regularly deducted tax money from interest in my account - so what do they do with that tax money they deduct?  ... What number do they apply for that?  The then went into a 'pow-wow' (a few employees puzzling over this question), when my wife broke the impasse by suggesting they enter the ID # from my pink ID into their system, and see if it is accepted as a tax #.  IMHO it is likely it is NOT a tax # on the pink ID (although it IS the tax number on nominal Thai IDs), but the bank entered the number and the Bangkok Bank system accepted it.  Go figure.

 

A few weeks later, I received a phone call that my bond had been purchased and I was to come to the bank.  I showed up, and they gave me a Thai bond bank book, but no bond certificate. According to the bank, only bonds with no certificate were issued now adays.  Fine.

 

So I submitted photo-copies of my bond book to BoI for my LTR-Visa application and they rejected it !!  They insisted on getting a bond certificate (where a certificate typically provides more information on the specific bond,  than information a bond bank book provides - such as the bond maturity date, the bond interest ...  None of which is nominally in the bond book  ).

 

I went back to Bangkok bank, asked for a certificate, and after a long time (where the person at the counter made many phone calls asking how to do it), they had me fill in/sign a form, pay them a nominal (trivial) amount of money for a certificate, and stated they would call me when the certificate arrived.  A week later no certificate. We phoned. No certificate. Two weeks later the same. Eventually after what seemed the longest time, I was asked to come in to the bank.  They advised they would not issue a certificate, but instead gave me a letter simply stating I owned the bond.  I almost went ballistic but my wife calmed me down, and I explained to them that would not likely be accepted by BoI as BoI had explained to us on the phone, they needed formal indication of bond maturity date and bond interest.

 

So after a short pow-wow the Bank staff had an entry printed formally into the last page of my bond book, stating bond maturity and bond interest.  

 

I then scanned that, sent it to BoI and it was accepted.  That was an adventure, and it was part of the delay in my LTR_WP visa application being accepted.