Putin's NUCLEAR threat to the West: Vladimir warns Ukraine's allies he will use 'weapons of destruction',

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Would those attacks not have occurred before Putin threatened the nuclear option?

Game has changed, and for all we know, Putin is looking for an excuse to use nukes.

Ukraine has not changed its game. It will continue to strike where it has been struck from.

[Berkshire]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You miss the ( IMO ) weak point in that argument, which is if Ukraine attacks Russia directly, it's likely to receive more than low yield nukes in return.

I'm thinking the long range missiles would be more of a deterrent.  If Putin thinks he can incinerate Kyiv with impunity, he will.

[BarraMarra]

6 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Wrong.  On several levels. 

Nuclear submarines do not sit on the bottom

The seabed of the North Atlantic is, in any case, way way way below crush depth

In addition to the Captain, the XO, Navigator and OOWs all know where they are.

The Defence Minister most assuredly does NOT know where the submarine is.

 

That's enough debunking of an illediated keyboard wrrior for one day I think

 

PH (ex nuclear submariner)

Keyboard Warrior indeed ? mm I worked in BAE Submarines where i worked on T class such as Talent Trenchant Turbulent etc I constructed S Class Spartan Sceptre Sovereign I worked on all Trident and Astute class till retirement as you know if your an Ex Submariner the crush depth is classified but they can go deep. When i said sitting on the btm i didn't mean literally sitting on the btm of the Sea it will be in the range of Russia. Most of the crew are not told where they are for obvious reasons for the security of the boat.  So don't be coming out with the old keyboard warrior stuff I know my stuff about Submarines constructing them for 40 years.

[placeholder]

27 minutes ago, BarraMarra said:

Keyboard Warrior indeed ? mm I worked in BAE Submarines where i worked on T class such as Talent Trenchant Turbulent etc I constructed S Class Spartan Sceptre Sovereign I worked on all Trident and Astute class till retirement as you know if your an Ex Submariner the crush depth is classified but they can go deep. When i said sitting on the btm i didn't mean literally sitting on the btm of the Sea it will be in the range of Russia. Most of the crew are not told where they are for obvious reasons for the security of the boat.  So don't be coming out with the old keyboard warrior stuff I know my stuff about Submarines constructing them for 40 years.

And anyway, your original point was an excellent one. Who cares if that kind of  sub can literally sitting on the bottom or not?

[Phulublub]

2 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Keyboard Warrior indeed ? mm I worked in BAE Submarines where i worked on T class such as Talent Trenchant Turbulent etc I constructed S Class Spartan Sceptre Sovereign I worked on all Trident and Astute class till retirement as you know if your an Ex Submariner the crush depth is classified but they can go deep. When i said sitting on the btm i didn't mean literally sitting on the btm of the Sea it will be in the range of Russia. Most of the crew are not told where they are for obvious reasons for the security of the boat.  So don't be coming out with the old keyboard warrior stuff I know my stuff about Submarines constructing them for 40 years.

Ahem...

YOU said sitting on the bottom.

YOU said "only the Captain and Defence Secretary"

so clearly you do not "know your stuff".

 

You may well have worked on construction of nuclear boats.  That is an entirely different thing from working in them while operational. 

 

You can be educated by those with vastly more relevant training and experience, or continue to "know best".  Entirely up to you.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

And anyway, your original point was an excellent one. Who cares if that kind of  sub can literally sitting on the bottom or not?

Sorry, no.  Any suggestion whatever that ANYONE outside of some of those onboard, know where the boat on patrol is, shows a complete ignorance of operational matters.

 

PH

[BarraMarra]

Who do you think gives the Submarine Captain his orders and where he Patrols ??

[Jingthing]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Would those attacks not have occurred before Putin threatened the nuclear option?

Game has changed, and for all we know, Putin is looking for an excuse to use nukes.

Nope. He's desperate and bluffing. 

[Jingthing]

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You miss the ( IMO ) weak point in that argument, which is if Ukraine attacks Russia directly, it's likely to receive more than low yield nukes in return.

The territories Putin is now annexing by sham votes are not Russia. Border area military targets are legitimate. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine was never interested in invading Russia.

[thaibeachlovers]

52 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Nope. He's desperate and bluffing. 

You seem very sure of your opinion, but it is just an opinion.

[thaibeachlovers]

48 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The territories Putin is now annexing by sham votes are not Russia. Border area military targets are legitimate. Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine was never interested in invading Russia.

Regardless, if he says they are, they become a trigger point for escalation if attacked.

Having told us for months how Putin is irrational etc, why would what you said make any difference to him?

[thaibeachlovers]

4 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Who do you think gives the Submarine Captain his orders and where he Patrols ??

A patrol area is probably very large and a submarine could be anywhere in that area- quite hard to locate.

[BarraMarra]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

A patrol area is probably very large and a submarine could be anywhere in that area- quite hard to locate.

Yes Thiaibeach the only time they have to surface is to replenish food. Unless the hunter knows where there likely to be they will not locate them.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, BarraMarra said:

Yes Thiaibeach the only time they have to surface is to replenish food. Unless the hunter knows where there likely to be they will not locate them.

I used to wonder how they didn't need to surface to get fresh air, but I found out recently they make O2 by electrolysis of water- unlimited O2 supply.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Regardless, if he says they are, they become a trigger point for escalation if attacked.

Having told us for months how Putin is irrational etc, why would what you said make any difference to him?

You seem to be suggesting that Ukraine should cave to Putin's tactics. They will not.

[Phulublub]

6 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Yes Thiaibeach the only time they have to surface is to replenish food. Unless the hunter knows where there likely to be they will not locate them.

Oh dear.  Once again showing total lack of knowledge.  The nuclear deterrant sails from base, gets itself lost (to all but some onboard) in a very large area and pootles about for a while until the next one has deployed and then comes back. 

 

They do not surface to replenish food.  If they did, any potential adversary would merely need to follow the replenshment ship and attack while that operation was underway.  

 

Working in Barrow gives you less than any knowledge on patrol routines, as you have amply demonstrated - please stop before you make even more stupid statements on a subject about which you know nothing.

 

PH

[Phulublub]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I used to wonder how they didn't need to surface to get fresh air, but I found out recently they make O2 by electrolysis of water- unlimited O2 supply.

Correct. 

 

Similarly, CO2 is scrubbed from the atmosphere and discharged overboard to maintain the balance as a breathable environment.  Making ones own O2 gives rise to possibility of adjusting the percentage - dropping by just a little will induce more sleep, raising it just a little heightens awareness considerably, both useful tools for different tactical environments.

 

PH

[placeholder]

16 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Sorry, no.  Any suggestion whatever that ANYONE outside of some of those onboard, know where the boat on patrol is, shows a complete ignorance of operational matters.

 

PH

And why should we care about these operational matters? How does that detract from the main point that these submarines pose a potent threat? Your comments seem to come straight from nerdworld.

[jvs]

18 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Would those attacks not have occurred before Putin threatened the nuclear option?

Game has changed, and for all we know, Putin is looking for an excuse to use nukes.

Yes he is looking for an excuse but nobody but the people on his side will believe him.

If i buy a bag of dirt and spread it own some one elses property

can i claim it as my land and defend my soil?

That is exactly what Putin is doing.

I steal your watch,put it on my wrist,is it now mine?

Now more people are being send to the front,i watched videos of

old men getting on a but to go to fight(go to die).

Putin is getting more and more desperate and it is hard to predict what his next move will be but he still has a very big weapon!

I believe as soon as it turns really cold he will turn of the gas completely!

Not good for Europe but they can and will survive this.

Putins new army will not survive sleeping in the open in a strange country without arms and food.

They will feed the hungry Ukrainian Cannons.

 

[ballpoint]

6 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Yes Thiaibeach the only time they have to surface is to replenish food. Unless the hunter knows where there likely to be they will not locate them.

The UK has 4 Vanguard Class submarines, each with 16 missile tubes, though only 8 are loaded due to nuclear treaties.  Each missile carries up to 8 warheads, and I'd imagine they are taking the full complement since the war started, so 64 warheads for Russia, with love.  There is always one at sea at any one time.  It stays away and submerged for 3 months before returning to base, when another goes out for its turn.  They have a large area of the Atlantic they can be in, and only the captain and navigator know for sure where they are.  No one on board knows where the missiles they are carrying are aimed at - though I suppose they can take a good guess.  The captain has a letter from the PM in his safe, detailing what action he should take in the event of a sudden nuclear strike killing the PM and the designated second person able to order an attack.  It was revealed once that should the BBC World Service fail to be transmitted for longer than a certain period, that would be one of the signs the captain should use as the signal to open the letter.

 

(This is largely off topic, but relevant in the case where Russia uses it's hypersonic missiles, or detonates a bomb already placed somewhere in London - as speculated previously.  Even following the sudden total destruction of London, the submarine is still a major threat to multiple Russian cities).

 

 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, jvs said:

Yes he is looking for an excuse but nobody but the people on his side will believe him.

If i buy a bag of dirt and spread it own some one elses property

can i claim it as my land and defend my soil?

That is exactly what Putin is doing.

I steal your watch,put it on my wrist,is it now mine?

Now more people are being send to the front,i watched videos of

old men getting on a but to go to fight(go to die).

Putin is getting more and more desperate and it is hard to predict what his next move will be but he still has a very big weapon!

I believe as soon as it turns really cold he will turn of the gas completely!

Not good for Europe but they can and will survive this.

Putins new army will not survive sleeping in the open in a strange country without arms and food.

They will feed the hungry Ukrainian Cannons.

 

Yes the Russian families understand this new wave mobilization is being sent to die  They have no motivation to fight beyond trying to survive. It is scary. If Putin is willing to treat his own countrymen like that, beyond all the war crimes we already know about, what is he capable of against enemies?

[jvs]

I hope this link is allowed.

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, jvs said:

Yes he is looking for an excuse but nobody but the people on his side will believe him.

If i buy a bag of dirt and spread it own some one elses property

can i claim it as my land and defend my soil?

That is exactly what Putin is doing.

I steal your watch,put it on my wrist,is it now mine?

Now more people are being send to the front,i watched videos of

old men getting on a but to go to fight(go to die).

Putin is getting more and more desperate and it is hard to predict what his next move will be but he still has a very big weapon!

I believe as soon as it turns really cold he will turn of the gas completely!

Not good for Europe but they can and will survive this.

Putins new army will not survive sleeping in the open in a strange country without arms and food.

They will feed the hungry Ukrainian Cannons.

 

Couldn't resist this meme I saw yesterday for that last statement of yours: They will feed the hungry Ukrainian Cannons.

 

HIMARS table for two

 

On a more serious note, Putin wants to instill fear, he did this right at the beginning of the invasion with his first nuclear threats. This latest is a sure sign he's in serious trouble. Nuclear weapons are first and foremost a psychological weapon to use as a tactical threat as he is doing although he adds rather lamely this is not a bluff. A sure sign it is a bluff. Its been reported the US has sent some private messages to the Kremlin with some serious warnings to them.

 

The only thing that should be happening now is arming Ukraine even more so and more rapidly to deal with this mobilization and get back their country.

[candide]

2 hours ago, ballpoint said:

The UK has 4 Vanguard Class submarines, each with 16 missile tubes, though only 8 are loaded due to nuclear treaties.  Each missile carries up to 8 warheads, and I'd imagine they are taking the full complement since the war started, so 64 warheads for Russia, with love.  There is always one at sea at any one time.  It stays away and submerged for 3 months before returning to base, when another goes out for its turn.  They have a large area of the Atlantic they can be in, and only the captain and navigator know for sure where they are.  No one on board knows where the missiles they are carrying are aimed at - though I suppose they can take a good guess.  The captain has a letter from the PM in his safe, detailing what action he should take in the event of a sudden nuclear strike killing the PM and the designated second person able to order an attack.  It was revealed once that should the BBC World Service fail to be transmitted for longer than a certain period, that would be one of the signs the captain should use as the signal to open the letter.

 

(This is largely off topic, but relevant in the case where Russia uses it's hypersonic missiles, or detonates a bomb already placed somewhere in London - as speculated previously.  Even following the sudden total destruction of London, the submarine is still a major threat to multiple Russian cities).

 

 

 

I also guess that during periods of perceived threat, there are more than one sub out.

[Adumbration]

Just a few more weeks and then the gas tap will be turned off permanently.

 

Rioting in the streets in Europe this winter.

[BarraMarra]

Another Troll post from the Ex Submariner. let me explain to him I posted the Submarine only has to surface for food I DIDNT SAY they stay submerged for the entire patrol I said they only have to surface for food. and possibly post. It only needs 1 Trident Submarine to reduce Russia to Cinders Candide and there is always 1 on patrol.

[heybruce]

14 minutes ago, Adumbration said:

Just a few more weeks and then the gas tap will be turned off permanently.

 

Rioting in the streets in Europe this winter.

I believe Europe is at 90% storage capacity now.  There will be shortages and high prices, but with what is in storage and gas coming in from the North Sea fields, North Africa, and LPG ships Europe will survive.  I don't expect rioting.

 

After this Europe, and everyone else (including China), will know to never again trust Russia as a reliable supplier of anything of importance.  Europe will rely on the Middle East, Africa, the Americas, Australia, pretty much any place but Russia.  Russia, with its fossil fuel dependent economy, will be screwed.

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, candide said:

I also guess that during periods of perceived threat, there are more than one sub out.

Unlikely, and not for long.

 

At the risk of being accused of being more into Nerdworld, but in the interests of those who live in th ereal world and prefer to be educated, having four Trident Subs gives:

 

1 in refit or long maintenance

1 preparing (including crew training), pre-deployment work up, deploying and coming on to rerplace

1 on patrol or, if one above has recently deployed, on way home

1 recently returned, short maintenace, crew leave and gearing up to go back to the top of this list.

 

Yes, there are small windows (and a little leeway to extend patrols) that could see two on patrol for a short period - but with considerable downstream negative effects that would mean any decision to go that route would have to be fully considered and deemed necessary and worthwhile to potentially counter or react to a really imminent threat.

 

PH;

 

 

[Phulublub]

3 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Another Troll post from the Ex Submariner. let me explain to him I posted the Submarine only has to surface for food I DIDNT SAY they stay submerged for the entire patrol I said they only have to surface for food. and possibly post. It only needs 1 Trident Submarine to reduce Russia to Cinders Candide and there is always 1 on patrol.

I'm the troll????!!!

 

The whole point of the deterrent is that it DOES STAY SUBMERGED for the entire time.

 

From where, Mr Expert, are you suggesting they get this food do they get this food?  Put out a few fishing rods???   As I said previosuly, if this were the case, then all any other Country need do is tail RFA to find the submarine.   

 

Post?  You suggest we put the UK Nuclear Deterant at risk so sailors can get a few letters from home!!! 

 

I wouldn't ask you how to build a submarine; quite why you think you know better than someone who served on the things is beyond  belief.

 

PH

[3NUMBAS]

russian rockets very unreliable ,western rockets very reliabale so russia comes of worse when the kremlin gets rubbled