British family makes desperate plea for grandfather seriously ill in Thailand

[FritsSikkink]

5 hours ago, Tongjaw said:

How do you know they are not on the donation list? Try looking harder.

John is now on end of life care. His daughter is now in Thailand and can see her dad before he passes. Hopefully he knows she’s with him and has some comfort during his final times. So why don’t you and the other grumpy argumentative posters remove yourselves from the thread if you have nothing useful to add. Better still, hopefully the moderators will remove you grumps instead. 

Show me one then. Did you donate or only talks?

[orchis]

Just now, Kalasin Jo said:

Wow! Well now, I'm British with French residency and French healthcare. Does that mean the French cover my health needs here. A link to the source of this statement would be really helpful.

You won't get a link because there is little truth in his statement.

[jacko45k]

19 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

At one time I believed that my (U.K.) National Health Service was a good organisation

Sorry to cut your post but just for efficiency.

The UK does offer palliative care and there are hospice places that take care of terminal and suffering patients. But so many want to be at home .... only really works if they have family who can be fully involved. I still believe the UK NHS offers a good service.... 

[The Fugitive]

14 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Sorry to cut your post but just for efficiency.

The UK does offer palliative care and there are hospice places that take care of terminal and suffering patients. But so many want to be at home .... only really works if they have family who can be fully involved. I still believe the UK NHS offers a good service.... 

True. Unfortunately at the time my Mother was dying (2013) in my home Health Authority there were no hospice places or nursing home availability. There was also a bed crisis in the hospital. Staff were acting under orders to clear beds. I was told it didn't matter if I rang for an ambulance 10 minutes after my Mother was discharged to my home address because that would then be regarded as a separate, subsequent admission. The nurse told me I would receive assistance from the Social Services Dept and not to worry about living alone. The Council hospital social worker then dug his heels in budget wise and refused to provide support. I was advised to go to the press but the hospital relented and allowed my Mother to die on the ward. She suffered at the end from lack of pain relief due to short staffing.  

[jacko45k]

1 minute ago, The Fugitive said:

True. Unfortunately at the time my Mother was dying (2013) in my home Health Authority there were no hospice places or nursing home availability. .....

Yes such times can be very trying, I went through similar with my mother but have regrets I was not there for her enough.....a lot of services were available but many had to be paid for.....

I talk to friends back in the UK and they seem to get a lot of treatments and support, one just had cancer treatment and it was exemplary. I feel it is very much a postcode lottery though....

[The Fugitive]

3 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

Yes such times can be very trying, I went through similar with my mother but have regrets I was not there for her enough.....a lot of services were available but many had to be paid for.....

I talk to friends back in the UK and they seem to get a lot of treatments and support, one just had cancer treatment and it was exemplary. I feel it is very much a postcode lottery though....

Definitely agree! It depends upon what, when and where.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, The Fugitive said:

Definitely agree! It depends upon what, when and where.

Without wanting to wade into some Brit NHS discussion, but the fact is these folks got care regardless of their ability to pay..

Even in the US with our totally <deleted>***cked up system, at 65 when medicare kicks in you are going to be taken care of.

 

The problem for expats in Thailand is that it's a pure insurance system. The underwriter assesses the risk and the policy premium is set.

 

And no Sh**t Sherlock surprise surprise as you advance in age the premium is on an exponential curve as the risk of you actually getting sick increases.  

 

There is a reason why older tourists, to anywhere, find it hard to even get travel insurance, let alone an aging expat in Thailand.

 

So if you are going to live out your twilight years in Thailand, and if your home country health insurance won't cover you, make sure you, or your family has some deep pockets

[IvorBiggun2]

Surely if the government was to have a complete ban on agents obtaining visas for individuals who can't afford to fund their annual visa it would clear out thousands of individuals that should not be in Thailand.

[The Fugitive]

6 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Without wanting to wade into some Brit NHS discussion, but the fact is these folks got care regardless of their ability to pay..

Even in the US with our totally <deleted>***cked up system, at 65 when medicare kicks in you are going to be taken care of.

 

The problem for expats in Thailand is that it's a pure insurance system. The underwriter assesses the risk and the policy premium is set.

 

And no Sh**t Sherlock surprise surprise as you advance in age the premium is on an exponential curve as the risk of you actually getting sick increases.  

 

There is a reason why older tourists, to anywhere, find it hard to even get travel insurance, let alone an aging expat in Thailand.

 

So if you are going to live out your twilight years in Thailand, and if your home country health insurance won't cover you, make sure you, or your family has some deep pockets

Being realistic is vital, as you say. You may believe that being the wrong side of 65 if from USA (or any age if a Brit) is not a problem because you can return for treatment. But not if you are seriously injured or suffer a stroke for example. It should be possible to elect for palliative treatment only to minimise pain and suffering during your time remaining. In the same way as signing a D.N.R. (do not resuscitate). That would enable health insurance to be obtained at a much reduced rate plus give some peace of mind too? 

[IvorBiggun2]

8 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

not a problem because you can return for treatment

Only in the case of emergency. And if one can undertake the 20 hour rigmarole of going back home then you can't be that ill IMO. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by IvorBiggun2

[The Fugitive]

2 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Only in the case of emergency. And if one can undertake the 20 hour rigmarole of going back home then you can't be that ill IMO. 

Absolutely! The belief that you can always return to your home Country for medical treatment is false security. As I posted if Thai insurance companies offered cover for palliative treatment only (prescriptions and comfort giving/pain relieving medicines only) it could hopefully significantly reduce the cost.  

[JimTripper]

Anyone know what happened? Updates?

[PremiumLane]

On 10/6/2022 at 4:44 AM, mania said:

On 10/5/2022 at 11:09 AM, PremiumLane said:

So people who have insurance but the insurance decides to not cover something, that never happens, right?

 

You know everything about the case, right?

Expand  

Yes Never happens to folks who tell the truth about any pre-existing conditions & buy real insurance

from international based companies (aka: Not Thai insurance companies)

haha what alternative reality are you living in?

[IvorBiggun2]

43 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

As I posted if Thai insurance companies offered cover for palliative treatment only (prescriptions and comfort giving/pain relieving medicines only) it could hopefully significantly reduce the cost.  

If you can't afford palliative care at a government hospital then you have problems. 

[The Fugitive]

18 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

If you can't afford palliative care at a government hospital then you have problems. 

I understand palliative treatment is a relatively new regime and extends beyond zapping the patient with morphine every 4 hours at the very end game. If I was very short of cash and/or didn't have anyone to look after me I would love the peace of mind that I wouldn't suffer unnecessarily when my time came. However, those existing on state pensions only with no savings wouldn't/couldn't buy insurance no matter how low the price. Unfortunately, it is those who need it the most.

[bobbin]

3 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

If you can't afford palliative care at a government hospital then you have problems.

I'm not convinced that this is a factual statement. Most Thai people would have work-related health insurance and those that don't would be covered by the 30 Baht program.

 

Try rocking up to a government hospital without insurance and I'm pretty sure that you are looking a sizeable bill. They bill by the day, plus medication.

 

And Thai hospitals don't actually have palliative care per se.. Those beds are valuable assets, not to be occupied for a lengthy period of just looking after you, as opposed to "treating" you. That uses the same resources as does treatment for people who actually have a reasonable chance of recovery..

[IvorBiggun2]

12 minutes ago, bobbin said:

Try rocking up to a government hospital without insurance and I'm pretty sure that you are looking a sizeable bill. They bill by the day, plus medication.

 

And Thai hospitals don't actually have palliative care per se.. Those beds are valuable assets, not to be occupied for a lengthy period of just looking after you, as opposed to "treating" you. That uses the same resources as does treatment for people who actually have a reasonable chance of recovery..

Serious question do you live here? I was in a government hospital tuther week for 5 days. I was in a ward where a man was on a ventilator and he was basically dead. My wife told me the doctor wanted his wife to take him home but she refused as she didn't want him to die at home. The doctor had no choice but to keep him in.

[bobbin]

10 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

Serious question do you live here? I was in a government hospital tuther week for 5 days. I was in a ward where a man was on a ventilator and he was basically dead. My wife told me the doctor wanted his wife to take him home but she refused as she didn't want him to die at home. The doctor had no choice but to keep him in.

Serious answer... 20+ years.

 

The rest of your post does not refute my reply.  The hospital wanted rid of him.

A man basically dead but still occupying a bed and a ventilator is using valuable resources that could be better allocated.

 

So where were you living until 2019?

Edited October 7, 2022 by bobbin

[IvorBiggun2]

1 minute ago, bobbin said:

using valuable resources that could be better allocated.

You obviously don't know my government hospital they're never short of beds. They keep spare beds out in the corridors for emergencies. As for the guy he wasn't denying anyone a bed or the use of a ventilator. Plus he wasn't really taking up the nurses time as his wife took care of all his bodily functions. He was not a burden upon any of the hospital staff.

[GinBoy2]

1 hour ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

You obviously don't know my government hospital they're never short of beds. They keep spare beds out in the corridors for emergencies. As for the guy he wasn't denying anyone a bed or the use of a ventilator. Plus he wasn't really taking up the nurses time as his wife took care of all his bodily functions. He was not a burden upon any of the hospital staff.

Thats probably the most telling thing, 'my government hospital"

 

You don't have to live in Thailand very long to understand that nothing is consistent.

 

Everything from getting a yellow book, local immigration office, the list goes on. Rules policies and frankly competency is totally local. so with everything in Thailand its a cr***pshoot what you get

[The Fugitive]

2 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

a man was on a ventilator and he was basically dead. My wife told me the doctor wanted his wife to take him home but she refused as she didn't want him to die at home. The doctor had no choice but to keep him in.

Interesting issue. Most Thai's seem to want their relatives to die at home for the convenience of family and friends and to organise the 'street party'. The ventilator wouldn't keep his 'life' functions going forever. It would be reasonable to want to reuse the machine as soon as possible for someone else who could be helped. We know that doctors can't kill people but this patient was actually dead and the doctor was seeking agreement to 'pull the plug'. I wouldn't expect his heart continued beating for very long after that.

[Tongjaw]

20 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

Show me one then. Did you donate or only talks?

Yes I did donate not that it’s any of your business. 

[mogandave]

17 hours ago, The Fugitive said:

Interesting issue. Most Thai's seem to want their relatives to die at home for the convenience of family and friends and to organise the 'street party'. The ventilator wouldn't keep his 'life' functions going forever. It would be reasonable to want to reuse the machine as soon as possible for someone else who could be helped. We know that doctors can't kill people but this patient was actually dead and the doctor was seeking agreement to 'pull the plug'. I wouldn't expect his heart continued beating for very long after that.

If he was basically dead, and the ventilator was keeping him alive, how is it the wife was going to take him home to die? 

 

Would he not just die when the turned the ventilator off?

[ThailandRyan]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

If he was basically dead, and the ventilator was keeping him alive, how is it the wife was going to take him home to die? 

 

Would he not just die when the turned the ventilator off?

Transport with a portable oxygen concentrator which they do have for rent.  At home he would be cared for by his loving family until his body gave out and stopped.  He would still be using the portable oxygen generator until the end.  We did this with my now deceased former GMIL in Udon Thani.

[The Fugitive]

23 minutes ago, mogandave said:

If he was basically dead, and the ventilator was keeping him alive, how is it the wife was going to take him home to die? 

 

Would he not just die when the turned the ventilator off?

Good point, you would think so. A couple of weeks ago my mother-in-law suffered a head injury causing a brain hemorrhage. She was transferred (my wife went in the ambulance with her) from our local community hospital to a more specialised hospital and from there to Provincial hospital. Doctors at all three said there was nothing that could be done. Ambulance brought her home to die. A doctor visited her at home three times over several days. On the final visit he told us that mum had died and that her breathing was now 'automatic' and would continue until her heart stopped. It was a further 48 hours until that happened and we could call the undertaker.    

[IvorBiggun2]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

how is it the wife was going to take him home to die? 

 

Would he not just die when the turned the ventilator off?

They would have supplied an ambulance with a ventilator. And no they wouldn't have turned the ventilator off. 

 

 

Quote

 

Gaew, a 39-year-old Thai construction worker, falls from a scaffold and hits his head on the pavement. He is unconscious by the time he arrives at one of Bangkok's cutting-edge emergency rooms. He is intubated and placed in the intensive care unit. Gaew's physician, Dr. Nok, informs Gaew's brother, Lek, that Gaew has little chance of recovery due to his lack of brain activity.

Lek does not know what to do—he wants to give his brother the best care possible, but he knows his brother is suffering. He would like to remove Gaew's ventilator. Dr. Nok replies that this is impossible because it is unethical to remove ventilators. Very few physicians in Thailand withdraw ventilators from patients [10]. They have a complex array of reasons for declining to withdraw ventilator support, including their medical training, fear of litigation, and belief in the sanctity of life.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1621096/

[jerrymahoney]

As of 13:00 Thai time SAT from GoFundMe page:

• Cheryl Dunne

  £50•12 hrs

  So sorry for your loss, Sincere Condolences and Love from Jonathan's Aunt Cheryl, Uncle Eric, Cousin's Mike, Simon and Alex. X

 

[SAFETY FIRST]

I'll be sending my go funding donations to the families that have lost their precious loved ones recently.

 

Killed by that horrible monster. 

[Hanuman2547]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:41 PM, BritManToo said:

I don't expect (nor desire) to live to age 77.

 

at 66 I've already had my life.

That's really sad Brit Man.  I would think that you would still have a lot more to look forward to.  My friend is the same age as you.  Next Saturday he's embarking on a two month bicycle tour from Hanoi to Singapore.  I would have gone too but, well.......I'm still working full time.  What's that saying?  "Get busy living, or get busy dying"