Ready to make an offer on a house

[thejudgegiles]

 

Firstly, thanks for showing an interest in my post. so, in short...

 

* I have cash in the bank here already over the amount of the property I am interested in

* I am 49, UK national, lived here 27 years, 9 months to go before a retirement visa is an option, in fact, at this time just on a 45 day stamp on arrival

* I am not married to a Thai

* I do have some solid Thai friends that are wealthy beyond belief and trustworthy, (ie. putting it in their name) so that might be an avenue to look at if some separate legal contract about asset ownership is an option

* I don't have a company registered here

* House is 10 years old, in a Bkk suburb, and under 10m THB. In a gated community and 55sqw.

* I don't fit the category of a rich investor with 40m+ THB 

 

I would like to find the safest route to buying this property, I will reside in it myself, and likely long term.  At some point I would need a Will to bequeath it to my sister in the UK. 

Not sure what other info is useful, I would love to hear from anyone that went through similar recently too, and what processes they went through, costs involved and final outcome. 

Regarding recommending solicitors, I would rather hold off from discussing that at this stage please.  

 

(PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE only post if you have relevant and knowingly accurate and up to date information)

[thaibeachlovers]

43 minutes ago, thejudgegiles said:

I would like to find the safest route to buying this property, I will reside in it myself, and likely long term.  At some point I would need a Will to bequeath it to my sister in the UK. 

IMO there is no safe route in owning property in LOS. Only good till it's not.

 

Surely using a "friend" to "buy" is is both foolish and illegal?

 

46 minutes ago, thejudgegiles said:

I am 49, UK national, lived here 27 years, 9 months to go before a retirement visa is an option, in fact, at this time just on a 45 day stamp on arrival

Errr, you have been "living in LOS" for 27 years on a visa exempt entry? Perhaps you were on a work permit or a marriage non O at some time, as I find it hard to believe the immigration would allow 27 years on visa exempt or tourist visas.

[CharlieH]

My 2 penneth, DONT ! I would rent. That gives you mobility if needed and bypasses all the pitfalls you are setting yourself up for.

 

Finally, dont spend 1 baht more than you are prepared to walk away from.

 

Good luck in your choices.

[Sparktrader]

Buy a house in friend name? Yeah no. Friend decides they hate you bye bye faran

[Sparktrader]

42 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Surely using a "friend" to "buy" is is both foolish and illegal?

Foolish yes

Illegal no

 

U can give money to friend

Friend can buy house

Friend can kick u out

 

Dumbest idea ever

 

Maybe u can trust your dad but you cant trust friends 100% or any woman

[Why Me]

1 hour ago, thejudgegiles said:

I do have some solid Thai friends that are wealthy beyond belief and trustworthy, (ie. putting it in their name)

 

1 hour ago, thejudgegiles said:

At some point I would need a Will to bequeath it to my sister in the UK. 

How do you plan to bequeath a property you are not (legally) the owner of when you die?

 

And would your sister prefer to be left a house 8000 miles away (that she can't own either) or cash? As others have suggested your best bet is to rent. That way you are in full control of your assets and can leave them to be transferred to your sister.

[DrJack54]

OP, with respect you do not appear to have lived in Thailand at all.

The plan you outline is not sensible.

Best to rent. 

[Sparktrader]

You can buy a condo in your name.

[2baht]

Never try, never know, judgegiles! ????

[Sparktrader]

Go 50/50 or 75/25 on a condo with sister.

[TorquayFan]

Judge Giles - I echo the advice to RENT but, there is a way to 'own' the house through a Company. This was 10 years ago but if I remember, the Falang can own up to 49% of the Company and therefore the property, but I relied on 33% for me 33% my Partner and 33% my trusted Lawyer.

 

If you have no Partner to consider, then you have to 'concede' 51% which could be jointly held by say, a trusted Friend and Lawyer.

 

At the time, my Lawyer was excellent and even oversaw the building of 300 m of perimeter wall while I was away.

 

But better to rent !!

 

(The Lawyer is in Korat but operates in BKK too)

 

 

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

Surrounding my Issan moo ban are three formerly beautiful palaces, multi story with balconies, beautiful views of the mountains, surrounded by walls and gates, now crumbling and sitting abandoned for years. They were once somebody's dream.

 

I've heard the stories told all kinds of ways, but what they all boil down to is: farang built the house, didn't work out between him and the madam, foreigners have no rights to the land nor recourse, and they just had to walk away.

 

Without farang money the home cannot be maintained, and with little resale value they just sit and sit.

[Sparktrader]

10 minutes ago, CrunchWrapSupreme said:

Surrounding my Issan moo ban are three formerly beautiful palaces, multi story with balconies, beautiful views of the mountains, surrounded by walls and gates, now crumbling and sitting abandoned for years. They were once somebody's dream.

 

I've heard the stories told all kinds of ways, but what they all boil down to is: farang built the house, didn't work out between him and the madam, foreigners have no rights to the land nor recourse, and they just had to walk away.

 

Without farang money the home cannot be maintained, and with little resale value they just sit and sit.

How cheap are they?

[nigelforbes]

20 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Judge Giles - I echo the advice to RENT but, there is a way to 'own' the house through a Company. This was 10 years ago but if I remember, the Falang can own up to 49% of the Company and therefore the property, but I relied on 33% for me 33% my Partner and 33% my trusted Lawyer.

 

If you have no Partner to consider, then you have to 'concede' 51% which could be jointly held by say, a trusted Friend and Lawyer.

 

At the time, my Lawyer was excellent and even oversaw the building of 300 m of perimeter wall while I was away.

 

But better to rent !!

 

(The Lawyer is in Korat but operates in BKK too)

 

 

It remains illegal to establish a company for the sole purpose of owning a single property.

[TorquayFan]

Nigel your opinion is quite clear but I assure you, I did it. 'Glowing Health (Thailand) Ltd' now defunct. The Lawyer is now a Judge too so he knows a bit.

 

Could this differ from province to province ? ATB

[TorquayFan]

Crunch that would have been the fate of my own house in a walled 2 rai. I was lucky to sell at a profit moreover.

 

I offered the Selling agent DOUBLE commission to be sure the sale got attention.

[nigelforbes]

30 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Nigel your opinion is quite clear but I assure you, I did it. 'Glowing Health (Thailand) Ltd' now defunct. The Lawyer is now a Judge too so he knows a bit.

 

Could this differ from province to province ? ATB

Yes I do know that lots of people are able to do it and still do so, but that's not the point. The way things work here is that at some point, perhaps years in the future, somebody, somewhere will decide to take action. That law has been on the books for years. We have English friends who went that route over 20 years ago and everything was fine, until about five years ago when one government department or office decided to have a crack down, the Land Office I think but am not certain. They were paid a visit by officials to confirm the ownership of the house and after some discussion they were given 6 months to change the ownership arrangements. My wife is a Thai citizen and she became the registered owner of the land for several years, until we asked to change the arrangement because there was then a new crackdown in place, this one on proxy ownership for foreigners. Ownership then changed to another Thai who was willing to take the risk. TBH the way things are going, these sorts of controls over foreigners are only going to become tighter and tighter.

[roo860]

Does this 30yr lease thing hold water still for new builds? Friend of mine bought one 20yrs ago, sold it 5yrs ago.

[Dante99]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:32 AM, Why Me said:

How do you plan to bequeath a property you are not (legally) the owner of when you die?

hmmm

[ThailandRyan]

17 minutes ago, roo860 said:

Does this 30yr lease thing hold water still for new builds? Friend of mine bought one 20yrs ago, sold it 5yrs ago.

30 year leasehold registered at the Land office is still in effect for the land.  The house is still owned by the foreigner who bought it.  At the end of 30 years another 30 years can be obtained.  Many of the leasehold contracts have this wording written into it, with this lease paperwork registered.  Currently there has been discussion over extending the 30 year leasehold period, which is in Thai law, to a 50 year period of time.  

[nigelforbes]

1 minute ago, ThailandRyan said:

30 year leasehold registered at the Land office is still in effect for the land.  The house is still owned by the foreigner who bought it.  At the end of 30 years another 30 years can be obtained.  Many of the leasehold contracts have this wording written into it, with this lease paperwork registered.  Currently there has been discussion over extending the 30 year leasehold period, which is in Thai law, to a 50 year period of time.  

There is no obligation or right under Thai law to extend a 30 year lease, beyond the initial term.

[ThailandRyan]

14 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

There is no obligation or right under Thai law to extend a 30 year lease, beyond the initial term.

Correct no obligation, but it can be done, as I wrote 

 

"another 30 years can be obtained"

 

So has it been a problem for some, possibly, for others maybe not.  The discussion of making it 50 years instead of 30 would assist many.  A friend has a 30 year leasehold, wherein if he sells the house the leasehold will be redone to the new owner for another 30 years and not the remainder of the current leasehold.  It is up to the developer of the properties, if one lives in a Mooban development run by a company instead of land owned by a family with just the one house on it.  However, this is Thailand and anything can happen.  My sister just bought a house in a Mexican beach resort area and the leasehold on the land is a 99 years lease.  Long enough for most of us and then some.

[nigelforbes]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Correct no obligation, but it can be done, as I wrote 

 

So has it been a problem for some, possibly, for others maybe not.  The discussion of making it 50 years instead of 30 would assist many.  A friend has a 30 year leasehold, wherein if he sells the house the leasehold will be redone to the new owner for another 30 years and not the remainder of the current leasehold.  It is up to the developer of the properties, if one lives in a Mooban development run by a company instead of land owned by a family with just the one house on it.  However, this is Thailand and anything can happen.  My sister just bought a house in a Mexican beach resort area and the leasehold on the land is a 99 years lease.  Long enough for most of us and then some.

You quoted me as saying something I didn't say, please remove it.

[WorriedNoodle]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:45 AM, thejudgegiles said:

I would like to find the safest route to buying this property,

Why? You haven't explained any reason for doing something thats needs to involve a Thai and not you. Makes no sense.

[ThailandRyan]

6 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

You quoted me as saying something I didn't say, please remove it.

Weird how that occurred, I clipped it from my own post as a quote, not yours. It has been altered. Don't get all bunched up.

[nigelforbes]

3 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Weird how that occurred, I clipped it from my own post as a quote, not yours. It has been altered. Don't get all bunched up.

Thanks, it's just that I prefer not to appear as though I have said things that aren't true and are legally unsound, I'm funny that way.

[Thailand]

"Bought" a house here 19 years ago using 30 year lease, sold it last year to a Chinese who used a company to "buy" .Both of those systems work until they don't TIT.

Lived in the house for 12 years so no rent to pay. Rented it out for about 6 years getting a total rental that was more than the house cost. Sold the house for twice what was paid for it.

I was lucky !

[ThailandRyan]

25 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

Thanks, it's just that I prefer not to appear as though I have said things that aren't true and are legally unsound, I'm funny that way.

Explain your legally unsound quote?

 

Of course this is from a lawyers standpoint, but with a written contract registered it is possible and one may be able to extend that 30 years, but it is not guaranteed under Thai law.  This is something that is also being discussed by the powers to be.

 

Section 540. The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal. 

 

https://www.sunbeltasia.com/lease-agreement-property-law-thailand

 

Many foreigners are told by sellers or developers that they can get the initial 30-year lease plus the second term of 30 years plus an additional third term 30-year lease option. However, under the Civil Commercial Code, only the first 30 years is guaranteed valid for the tenant’s rights to the lease (once the lease is registered at the local Land Office). There are court decisions which indicate that the renewal clause is personal to the landlord and thus may not be binding on his heirs or future landlords (Lessor).

 

Also, a lease contract can contractually bind the lessor to agree to a second term of 30 years, but again this is only enforceable after the owner of the land goes with the tenant to the Land Office and registers a 2nd term of 30 years. If the owner of the land does not wish to register the second term of thirty years, the tenant could file a lawsuit with the civil court against the owner, the reason being a breach of a contract between two individuals.

[nigelforbes]

2 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Explain your legally unsound quote?

 

Of course this is from a lawyers standpoint, but with a written contract registered it is possible and one may be able to extend that 30 years, but it is not guaranteed under Thai law.  This is something that is also being discussed by the powers to be.

 

Section 540. The duration of a hire of immovable property cannot exceed thirty years. If it is made for a longer period, such period shall be reduced to thirty years. The aforesaid period may be renewed, but it must not exceed thirty years from the time of renewal. 

 

https://www.sunbeltasia.com/lease-agreement-property-law-thailand

 

Many foreigners are told by sellers or developers that they can get the initial 30-year lease plus the second term of 30 years plus an additional third term 30-year lease option. However, under the Civil Commercial Code, only the first 30 years is guaranteed valid for the tenant’s rights to the lease (once the lease is registered at the local Land Office). There are court decisions which indicate that the renewal clause is personal to the landlord and thus may not be binding on his heirs or future landlords (Lessor).

 

Also, a lease contract can contractually bind the lessor to agree to a second term of 30 years, but again this is only enforceable after the owner of the land goes with the tenant to the Land Office and registers a 2nd term of 30 years. If the owner of the land does not wish to register the second term of thirty years, the tenant could file a lawsuit with the civil court against the owner, the reason being a breach of a contract between two individuals.

Your quoted me as saying "it can be done", I say it may be possible. Using the word "can" implies it is never impossible.

[Will B Good]

This reads like an absolute horror story about to unfold.........I cannot for the life of me understand why you would buy...............renting is cheaper, safer and guarantees total flexibility.....Never buy property in Thailand.