Why is the UK struggling more than other countries?

[johnnybangkok]

17 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

No, you didn't comprehend my post.

 

I said Immigration was not a factor in my Brexit considerations.........governments were already mismanaging that. 

 

You are making the typical Remainer mistake of trying to think for others - please don't do it for me.

 

I love Europe/Europeans, I detest the EU. I voted to leave, we won, we left. There was always a price to pay for leaving the 'club', the only disappointment is the Schadenfreude of the losing side in milking every negative opportunity.

 

 

My apologies for my lack of comprehension but if you don't want to be misconstrued then perhaps you need to write your posts a bit clearer. Saying 'I voted to leave the EU in the full knowledge that successive UK governments had failed to implement it's own immigration policies - illegal immigrants were a separate factor and governments failed to get to grips with the problem.', sounds very much like you had an issue with immigration and voted because of it.

 You may well be the Brexit Unicorn who voted leave for reasons other than immigration but I can assure you, you are very much in the minority (as this thread clearly demonstrates).

[hotandsticky]

Just now, johnnybangkok said:

My apologies for my lack of comprehension but if you don't want to be misconstrued then perhaps you need to write your posts a bit clearer. Saying 'I voted to leave the EU in the full knowledge that successive UK governments had failed to implement it's own immigration policies - illegal immigrants were a separate factor and governments failed to get to grips with the problem.', sounds very much like you had an issue with immigration and voted because of it.

 You may well be the Brexit Unicorn who voted leave for reasons other than immigration but I can assure you, you are very much in the minority (as this thread clearly demonstrates).

Apology unnecessary, thanks.

 

 

I thought I was quite clear in explaining that IMP immigration/handling refugees was already a clusterfck and would not be improved by leaving the EU.

 

Unicorn, or not, my reasons for voting leave were clear - I did not wish to remain part of the monster that I believed the EU had become. I was a fan of the EEC and the concept of 9 similar countries becoming a trading bloc (similar to ASSEAN) but I am a great believer in independence and the right of individual countries to make their own laws etc. The bloc is secondary to that IMO.  I do think that the EU became too large and was wrong to treat all members as equals - there should have been grades of membership. 

 

That nice Mr Cameron gave me the choice to leave or remain, I voted accordingly.

[johnnybangkok]

20 hours ago, superal said:

Control of borders whilst a E.U. member ? almost impossible with free movement of labour . 

Xenophobia ? In the context of taking care of your own nationals first and being resentful of foreigners who were raping the UK benefit system , greedy employers who were happy to employ foreign labour at much reduced rates and taking the UK working mans livelihood , that is not xenophobia or racism . It is about retaining your occupation in order to survive , put food on the table and pay the mortgage . 

The UK has many dodgy asylum seekers who bypassed other European countries to get to the UK in order for an easy life living off social benefits . No intentions to integrate but stick together living their own customs . The UK has too many do gooders who need to wake up and smell the coffee . Regarding the abandonment of the E.U. laws , please read the link below 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-retained-eu-law-revocation-and-reform-bill-2022#:~:text=The time is now right,and replace retained EU Law.

Since I have answered all of these 'points' to you in previos posts to include the UK's very low unemployment rate (and the manufacturing, hospitality, wholesale & retail, NHS & Social Work and construction really struggling without EU employees   https://www.ft.com/content/a9677ee4-281d-4d0d-8456-661982890304), the minimum wage requirements in the UK (for ALL employees) and the fact that asylum seekers don't get 'an easy life living off social benefits', I can only assume you don't want to know the facts because it doesn't feed into your myopic narrative. That then only leaves us with you 'point' about redressing EU laws.

 

Your link doesn't provide anything other than a long page outlining the Tories desire to have 'all remaining retained EU Law repealed, or assimilated into UK domestic law' but that doesn't answer the question I posed. EXACTLY what specific laws enacted by the EU will be repealed that you believe will 're-birth' the UK? It's a simple question, please answer it.

Edited December 17, 2022 by johnnybangkok

[Bluespunk]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Indeed, Eire would be inheriting a lot of non Catholics that would "strongly object" to being subject to Southern Ireland rule.

Nonetheless…

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Would they have their U.K citizenship removed from them and  have have Irish citizenship enforced upon them and would then then legally be allowed to live anywhere in Ireland , Northern Irish leaving their location and moving all over Ireland and British people (with Irish ancestry) being able to get Isiah citizenship) and then you have have the Loyalists potentially reforming their groups and waging war against the Irish Government .

Rubbish. 
 

Nonsense. 
 

Hysterical hyperbole. 
 

Take your pick, they all describe your post here. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Bluespunk

[johnnybangkok]

15 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

So , there's even more immigration now and there's also a shortage of Eastern European workers ?

   It cannot be both , it  needs to be either one or the other .

Has Brexit stopped E.U immigrants or not ?

  If there's more immigrants now, then there wouldn't be  shortage of workers .

   There has been an increase in asylum seekers , but now measures have been taken to send them straight back home again 

 

It isn't both.

 

I'm not sure why I have to explain these things to you (yet again) but let me try and do it simply. There are now no longer EU nationals because we closed our borders to the free-flow of nationals amongst member states. There was however nearly 5 million who applied and got UK residency after this was declared. This however had nothing to do with illegal immigration and/or asylum seekers who are predominately NOT from EU states but from places like Syria, Iran, Albania, Afghanistan etc. The numbers here have risen but you are still not talking nearly enough numbers to affect the 'shortage of workers' as asylum seekers account for approx. 185,000. And the big point is whilst getting their asylum application sorted, these people are NOT allowed to work. 

 

That then leaves the illegal immigrants of which the numbers are much higher. It is gestimated that there is anything from 594,000 to 745,000 illegal immigrants in the UK but here's the thing, they are illegal and therefore cannot take up legal employment (surprise, surprise) so they can't and won't be employed in mainstream business so yet again they don't affect the shortage of workers (cash in hand and black market businesses benefit though).

 

For people like yourself who based much of their Brexit decision on these sort of things, you would have hoped you were better educated on the subject. Silly of me to think that though.

 

 

[johnnybangkok]

24 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Apology unnecessary, thanks.

 

 

I thought I was quite clear in explaining that IMP immigration/handling refugees was already a clusterfck and would not be improved by leaving the EU.

 

Unicorn, or not, my reasons for voting leave were clear - I did not wish to remain part of the monster that I believed the EU had become. I was a fan of the EEC and the concept of 9 similar countries becoming a trading bloc (similar to ASSEAN) but I am a great believer in independence and the right of individual countries to make their own laws etc. The bloc is secondary to that IMO.  I do think that the EU became too large and was wrong to treat all members as equals - there should have been grades of membership. 

 

That nice Mr Cameron gave me the choice to leave or remain, I voted accordingly.

This is exactly why the Brexit referendum was such a mistake. The overly simple question of 'in or out' completely ignored the vast majority of people who wanted less political affiliations with the EU but wanted to keep good trading terms with our biggest market (amazingly enough, what we exactly had before Cameron got scared about UKIP and stuck his oar in).

 

If done again, with the simple question 'would you like things to return exactly back to our relationship with the EU we had before Brexit', what would you vote? 

 

 

[hotandsticky]

9 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

This is exactly why the Brexit referendum was such a mistake. The overly simple question of 'in or out' completely ignored the vast majority of people who wanted less political affiliations with the EU but wanted to keep good trading terms with our biggest market (amazingly enough, what we exactly had before Cameron got scared about UKIP and stuck his oar in).

 

If done again, with the simple question 'would you like things to return exactly back to our relationship with the EU we had before Brexit', what would you vote? 

 

 

I would still vote to leave.

 

But you are absolutely right, had Cameron (a decent PM IMO) done his job properly the 'leave' option would not have been necessary.

[Mac Mickmanus]

20 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

It isn't both.

I'm not sure why I have to explain these things to you (yet again) but let me try and do it simply. There are now no longer EU nationals because we closed our borders to the free-flow of nationals amongst member states. There was however nearly 5 million who applied and got UK residency after this was declared. This however had nothing to do with illegal immigration and/or asylum seeke

22 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

It isn't both.

 

I'm not sure why I have to explain these things to you (yet again) but let me try and do it simply. There are now no longer EU nationals because we closed our borders to the free-flow of nationals amongst member states. There was however nearly 5 million who applied and got UK residency after this was declared. This however had nothing to do with illegal immigration and/or asylum seekers who are predominately NOT from EU states but from places like Syria, Iran, Albania, Afghanistan etc. The numbers here have risen but you are still not talking nearly enough numbers to affect the 'shortage of workers' as asylum seekers account for approx. 185,000. And the big point is whilst getting their asylum application sorted, these people are NOT allowed to work. 

 

That then leaves the illegal immigrants of which the numbers are much higher. It is gestimated that there is anything from 594,000 to 745,000 illegal immigrants in the UK but here's the thing, they are illegal and therefore cannot take up legal employment (surprise, surprise) so they can't and won't be employed in mainstream business so yet again they don't affect the shortage of workers (cash in hand and black market businesses benefit though).

 

For people like yourself who based much of their Brexit decision on these sort of things, you would have hoped you were better educated on the subject. Silly of me to think that though.

 

 

 

 

I really do not appreciate  being spoken to in such a condescending manner and thus I wont put much effort into my reply , but illegal immigration has nothing to do with Brexit .

   That's all the effort I will put into my reply 

[johnnybangkok]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I really do not appreciate  being spoken to in such a condescending manner and thus I wont put much effort into my reply , but illegal immigration has nothing to do with Brexit .

   That's all the effort I will put into my reply 

With your level of knowledge, that's pretty much all I would expect.

[johnnybangkok]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I am living in the U.K.

How is life abroad ?

- 3 here now 

A persons location has nothing to do with their ability to comment on a Thai centric forum (as has been pointed out to you numerous times by the moderators) but since you ask, it's fine. Thailand has it's own problems but it isn't facing a deluge of strikes, massively high inflation and issues with immigration. It also hasn't decided to seperate from it's largest trading partner and has no issues with staffing shortages in it's manufacturing, hospitality, wholesale & retail, health and  construction industries.

 

Thanks for asking.   

[superal]

38 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Since I have answered all of these 'points' to you in previos posts to include the UK's very low unemployment rate (and the manufacturing, hospitality, wholesale & retail, NHS & Social Work and construction really struggling without EU employees   https://www.ft.com/content/a9677ee4-281d-4d0d-8456-661982890304), the minimum wage requirements in the UK (for ALL employees) and the fact that asylum seekers don't get 'an easy life living off social benefits', I can only assume you don't want to know the facts because it doesn't feed into your myopic narrative. That then only leaves us with you 'point' about redressing EU laws.

 

Your link doesn't provide anything other than a long page outlining the Tories desire to have 'all remaining retained EU Law repealed, or assimilated into UK domestic law' but that doesn't answer the question I posed. EXACTLY what specific laws enacted by the EU will be repealed that you believe will 're-birth' the UK? It's a simple question, please answer it.

Just for your limited knowledge , a simple search , link below , should suffice .

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-to-set-its-own-laws-for-its-own-people-as-brexit-freedoms-bill-introduced 

Your view is , as an analogy , people who are stuck in a loveless marriage that is a convenient arrangement but with no future . Remainers have no vision or aspirations . You should try to reverse your negative thinking and broaden your outlook on life . 

I accept that there are problems within the UK but they will be addressed and dealt with by an unfettered UK government free from the E.U. shackles .   

Unless you have something positive or constructive to say , I suggest you leave it there .

[Rimmer]

An off topic irrelevant post has been removed.

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

A persons location has nothing to do with their ability to comment on a Thai centric forum (as has been pointed out to you numerous times by the moderators) but since you ask, it's fine. Thailand has it's own problems but it isn't facing a deluge of strikes, massively high inflation and issues with immigration. It also hasn't decided to seperate from it's largest trading partner and has no issues with staffing shortages in it's manufacturing, hospitality, wholesale & retail, health and  construction industries.

 

Thanks for asking.   

I do think that if you aren't living with the effects of Brexit and only read about it in biased news sources , then you cannot really have a concise opinion about it .

   Like , saying the UK should have an open immigration policy when you yourself doesn't have to deal with over crowding issues and a shortage of accommodation which that open border policy causes and you don't have to pay a rise in council taxes to pay illegal immigrants accommodation costs .

  

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Would they have their U.K citizenship removed from them and  have have Irish citizenship enforced upon them and would then then legally be allowed to live anywhere in Ireland , Northern Irish leaving their location and moving all over Ireland and British people (with Irish ancestry) being able to get Isiah citizenship) and then you have have the Loyalists potentially reforming their groups and waging war against the Irish Government .

I imagine they would have dual citizenship.

[kwilco]

Brexit changes caused 22.9% slump in UK-EU exports into the first quarter of 2022 – research, and the variety of UK products exported to EU were down by 42%

has shown that UK exports to the EU fell by an average of 22.9% in the first 15 months after the introduction of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement,

In fact, the negative effect on UK exports has got worse from January 2021-March 2022 from the previous period with Covid.

The UK has also experienced a significant reduction in the variety of goods being exported to the EU, with an estimated loss of 42% of product varieties. This, combined means that concentrating export values to fewer products, will have further, serious ramifications for the UK’s exports and productivity in the future. 

Businesses are calling for a return to the single market and freedom of movement to address the labour shortage.

[Kwasaki]

59 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Brexit changes caused 22.9% slump in UK-EU exports into the first quarter of 2022 – research, and the variety of UK products exported to EU were down by 42%

has shown that UK exports to the EU fell by an average of 22.9% in the first 15 months after the introduction of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement,

In fact, the negative effect on UK exports has got worse from January 2021-March 2022 from the previous period with Covid.

The UK has also experienced a significant reduction in the variety of goods being exported to the EU, with an estimated loss of 42% of product varieties. This, combined means that concentrating export values to fewer products, will have further, serious ramifications for the UK’s exports and productivity in the future. 

Businesses are calling for a return to the single market and freedom of movement to address the labour shortage.

Well businesses should adjust and managed their business differently now and not be so lazy, there's more work and more paperwork, less profit yes that's tough but instead of moaning get on with and work harder or close down. 

[RayC]

6 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I do think that if you aren't living with the effects of Brexit and only read about it in biased news sources , then you cannot really have a concise opinion about it .

   Like , saying the UK should have an open immigration policy when you yourself doesn't have to deal with over crowding issues and a shortage of accommodation which that open border policy causes and you don't have to pay a rise in council taxes to pay illegal immigrants accommodation costs .

  

My experience and opinion are the complete opposite to yours. 

 

You also seem to be implying that some individual's comments should carry more weight than others? In 2016 I was living and working in Brussels. The effect on me and my family was felt almost immediately, not least because of the uncertainty. Does my opinion count for more than yours?

 

Nb. Before anyone asks. No, neither me nor any one in my family, ever worked directly or indirectly for any of the EU institutions.

 

Nbb. The financial cost of providing for illegal immigrants is almost entirely borne by the Home Office. Although it may put an additional strain on local services, imo it's not much of a justification for council tax rises.

Edited December 17, 2022 by RayC
Clarification

[Chomper Higgot]

7 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

I do think that if you aren't living with the effects of Brexit and only read about it in biased news sources , then you cannot really have a concise opinion about it .

   Like , saying the UK should have an open immigration policy when you yourself doesn't have to deal with over crowding issues and a shortage of accommodation which that open border policy causes and you don't have to pay a rise in council taxes to pay illegal immigrants accommodation costs .

  

Hogwash.

 

1. I doubt there is a British member of this forum who is not personally impacted by Brexit.

 

2. It would be ridiculous to claim the families of British members of this forum are not impacted by Brexit.

 

My guess is anti-Brexit members of this forum are presenting arguments you can’t deal with so your response is to try and undermine their right to comment.

 

You’re on the run laddie!

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

10 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

It isn't both.

 

I'm not sure why I have to explain these things to you (yet again) but let me try and do it simply. There are now no longer EU nationals because we closed our borders to the free-flow of nationals amongst member states. There was however nearly 5 million who applied and got UK residency after this was declared.

 

 

You really do not have to explain that to me "again" , I have posted that information in this thread previously and quite possibly I may have been the one to inform you (but you may have known that already ) as I was the one who bought that info to the table in this thread  , actually my figure was six million E.U citizens who applied for a UK visas to stay in the U.K , but no need to know the exacat amount 

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

My experience and opinion are the complete opposite to yours. 

 

You also seem to be implying that some individual's comments should carry more weight than others? In 2016 I was living and working in Brussels. The effect on me and my family was felt almost immediately, not least because of the uncertainty. Does my opinion count for more than yours?

 

Look , although this is a public forum, I was actually replying to someone else and that person claimed that I have a "limited knowledge" of Brexit and its aftermath and I was just pointing out that I am living with it , rather than commenting from the other side of the World and may not even have been to the U.K post Brexit .

   Its rather like spectators watching a football match from the stands  and shouting at the players and telling them what to do, where they are going wrong and what they should be doing .

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Look , although this is a public forum, I was actually replying to someone else and that person claimed that I have a "limited knowledge" of Brexit and its aftermath and I was just pointing out that I am living with it , rather than commenting from the other side of the World and may not even have been to the U.K post Brexit .

   Its rather like spectators watching a football match from the stands  and shouting at the players and telling them what to do, where they are going wrong and what they should be doing .

Rather it's like one person out of 67 million reporting his or her personal experience of Brexit. If all, or most of the citizens of the UK subscribed to your experience, you might have at least something approaching half a point. The only independent evidence we have on that issue are the polls. And they certainly don't back you.

Edited December 17, 2022 by placeholder

[Mac Mickmanus]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Rather it's like one person out of 67 million reporting his or her personal experience of Brexit. If all, or most of the citizens of the UK subscribed to your experience, you might have at least something approaching half a point. The only independent evidence we have on that issue are the polls. And they certainly don't back you.

Yes, I am giving my personal opinion about life in the U.K post Brexit , the reason why many other posters on here cannot do likewise is because they haven't even been to the U.K post Brexit

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I am giving my personal opinion about life in the U.K post Brexit , the reason why many other posters on here cannot do likewise is because they haven't even been to the U.K post Brexit

So what? If that gave you any special insight into the situation then we should expect to find nearly universal agreement about your evaluation with all those living in the UK. Clearly, that's not the case. You're just one tiny little piece of the UK populace. I could just as easily argue that distance affords one the opportunity to take a wider and dispassionate view. Of course, that would be just as much B.S. as the basis of your claim.

Edited December 17, 2022 by placeholder

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hogwash.

 

1. I doubt there is a British member of this forum who is not personally impacted by Brexit.

 

2. It would be ridiculous to claim the families of British members of this forum are not impacted by Brexit.

 

My guess is anti-Brexit members of this forum are presenting arguments you can’t deal with so your response is to try and undermine their right to comment.

 

You’re on the run laddie!

 

 

You have to look and see the other posts of MickManus. Basically, he's been trying to make this discussion about the members who post rather than the issues. This is just another sad attempt of his to deflect away from the issue of why the UK is in such deep trouble.

[Bluespunk]

11 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I am giving my personal opinion about life in the U.K post Brexit , the reason why many other posters on here cannot do likewise is because they haven't even been to the U.K post Brexit

Irrelevant and the fact you continue to resort to such deflection off topic nonsense shows you cannot refute arguments showing the negative effect of brexit on the U.K. economy. . 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Bluespunk

[Mac Mickmanus]

16 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You have to look and see the other posts of MickManus. Basically, he's been trying to make this discussion about the members who post rather than the issues. This is just another sad attempt of his to deflect away from the issue of why the UK is in such deep trouble.

Just replying to  poster who questions my knowledge of the situation and pointing out that I am living it , rather than just watching it 

[placeholder]

12 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Just replying to  poster who questions my knowledge of the situation and pointing out that I am living it , rather than just watching it 

He accused you of having a "limited knowledge" of Brexit. Your personal experiences of Brexit have no bearing on whether you have any familiarity with policy issues and their economic effects. And that's what counts. Not your subjective take on the situation.

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, placeholder said:

He accused you of having a "limited knowledge" of Brexit. Your personal experiences of Brexit have no bearing on whether you have any familiarity with policy issues and their economic effects. And that's what counts. Not your subjective take on the situation.

I really do think that I am in a better position to comment on the economic effects , rather than people who just cherry pick facts and figures and use those figures to form an opinion , for example people who quote a surge in immigration to the UK and then claim Brexit has failed to control UK's borders .

    Well of course there's going to be a surge in people applying for visas for the UK , because prior to Brexit they didn't need to apply for UK visas 

[RayC]

40 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Yes, I am giving my personal opinion about life in the U.K post Brexit , the reason why many other posters on here cannot do likewise is because they haven't even been to the U.K post Brexit

A truism in that such individuals will not have had personal experience of life in the UK post-Brexit, however, it's fairly meaningless unless you are suggesting that makes your opinion more valuable than someone who is based outside the UK. 

 

In that case, those of us who have lived in both the UK and EU (member states) both pre and post-referendum are therefore, presumably, even more qualified to comment?