Germany set to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine, Der Spiegel reports

[stupidfarang]

5 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I expect the Russians will now see Germans as legitimate targets in this war now that they have joined in weaponizing Ukraine. Are the German's merrily going about their business at home prepared to potentially be attacked? Have they thought this through properly?  Do they understand the full background to this war? I suspect the answer is no to all these questions.

 

 

Do you understand the full background to this war? I suspect the answer is no

[bannork]

13 minutes ago, BE88 said:

I see you are not aware that in a nuclear war we all died, only scorpions seem to survive in a radioactive way.

 

Surely it depends on the length and scope of the war.

[BE88]

17 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

That you had to state that in the first place is a sign that the escalation of the war with Russia has not been fully thought out.

A war becomes very dangerous for the people when there are only arrogant leaders in power who believe they have the power of life and death over all citizens, as at present.

 

[Eric Loh]

19 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

That you had to state that in the first place is a sign that the escalation of the war with Russia has not been fully thought out.

Everyone has their 2 cents of opinion. Mine is that the Putin is also aware of further escalation and annihilation of his motherland and will reach detente with the West or the elites will take him out before his grubby hands can get to the nuclear football. 

[BE88]

12 minutes ago, bannork said:

Surely it depends on the length and scope of the war.

We are talking about a nuclear war with thousands of nuclear warheads ready to be launched in minutes and sent to various targets.

I hope that the concept is very clear, no one will survive the nuclear winter that will last for years on planet earth where, with the lack of the sun's rays, nothing will grow. Those who did not die from the radioactivity carried by the winds will die of hunger and cold.

 

And what are we talking about?

 

[SunnyinBangrak]

12 minutes ago, stupidfarang said:

Do you understand the full background to this war? I suspect the answer is no

No absolutely not. But I am aware of western "interference" in Ukraine's political landscape, which will certainly have been provocative from the Russian viewpoint. The narrative that there is no reason whatsoever that Russia should feel provoked and NATO are blameless, and we should all choose this as the hill to die on is IMO very misguided. I am also aware that pre invasion the western media narrative was that Ukraine had problems with a movement of evil political extremists fond of the German military of the 30's, don't hear much/anything about that these days. I think any unwelcome interference in other foreign nations is unacceptable.

 Whatever happened during Trump's term that kept Russia's neck wound in is worth repeating. Obama and Biden both saw Russian invasions of the Ukraine under their watch. Walking softly with a big stick, while encouraging negotiation and understanding = good. Firing missiles, rolling the tanks, and thinking the radioactive fallout wont reach the Thai beaches = bad.

[SunnyinBangrak]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Everyone has their 2 cents of opinion. Mine is that the Putin is also aware of further escalation and annihilation of his motherland and will reach detente with the West or the elites will take him out before his grubby hands can get to the nuclear football. 

I thought he was knocking on heavens door? Is it possible that(if true) such a man might not be thinking rationally or with any regard for his personal safety? 

[Eric Loh]

4 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I thought he was knocking on heavens door? Is it possible that(if true) such a man might not be thinking rationally or with any regard for his personal safety? 

He may be thinking irrationally but he can't launch any nuclear attack by himself. He is one of three with the cheget on hands at all times and he need the other 2 affirmations to trigger any actual launch. 

[bannork]

7 minutes ago, BE88 said:

We are talking about a nuclear war with thousands of nuclear warheads ready to be launched in minutes and sent to various targets.

I hope that the concept is very clear, no one will survive the nuclear winter that will last for years on planet earth where, with the lack of the sun's rays, nothing will grow. Those who did not die from the radioactivity carried by the winds will die of hunger and cold.

 

And what are we talking about?

 

You assume the Russian operatives of these thousands of nuclear warheads want to die too.

When their own self destruction is assured too the ' I was just obeying orders' defence loses its appeal.

[ozimoron]

6 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I find it somewhat strange that it's thought a few tanks will make the difference. Thousands certainly would, but is the west going to send thousands?

 

For those that don't actually know much about tanks other than in movies here is an informative web site

https://kyivindependent.com/national/how-many-tanks-does-russia-really-have

However, we can not expect Russia to run critically low on tanks anytime soon.

Despite heavy losses, Russia still has enough machines to continue waging its war for years.

 

and another ( I had to delete one sentence to keep the quote with 3 sentences )

https://www.csis.org/analysis/will-united-states-run-out-javelins-russia-runs-out-tanks

The United States has supplied Ukraine with thousands of Javelins, the anti-tank missiles that have become the iconic weapon of the war, but the U.S. inventory is dwindling. The United States has probably given about one-third of its stock to Ukraine.

............................................

Production of new missiles is slow, and it will take years to replenish stocks.

Where did you get your estimate of thousands? The single factual claim you made wasn't supported by any link.

 

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You think they won't use them if it came to it? I do. End of humanity.

No, they won't use them any more than the West would. Russia isn't a country populated by lemmings.

 

36 minutes ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

That you had to state that in the first place is a sign that the escalation of the war with Russia has not been fully thought out.

It has been well thought out. Why on earth would you think that is hasn't?

[Bkk Brian]

Putin's nuclear rhetoric: Make the enemy and its allies afraid. Very afraid. Make them worried. If they're worried they cannot appose you. 

 

Putins apologists: ditto

 

Putin is well versed in fear tactics being ex KGB. Its also how he keeps in power.

 

 

Leaders shouldn’t give in to Putin’s nuclear rhetoric.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/11/russia-ukraine-nuclear-war-fear-us-policy/672020/

 

 

 

[Rimmer]

Some off topic, troll, bickering and duplicate posts have been removed, also replies

[ozimoron]

The real foot dragger was the US. They made up every lame excuse in the book for not sending the M1 tanks until finally they had to. Their excuses for not sending them call into question whether they would be any use in a war against a powerful adversary. They had only been used in the Middle East.

 

Germany was right to demand that the US send their tanks as well because of Russia's nuclear threat. Russia has to understand that it can't even use low yield tactical nuclear weapons or dirty bombs which have been the main sticking point.

[ozimoron]

In what would be a reversal, the Biden administration is poised to approve sending M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, U.S. officials said Tuesday, as international reluctance to send tanks to the battlefront against the Russians begins to erode. A decision to send a bit more than 30 tanks could be announced as soon as Wednesday, though it could take months for the tanks to be delivered.

 

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell said Tuesday “it’s time, past time” for the Biden administration and allies to send more military aid to Ukraine, and that the U.S. must provide more tanks and weapons to help Ukraine “win this war.”

 

https://apnews.com/article/us-m1-abrams-tanks-ukraine-russia-249de5c301a9bf83b5f3ac2182076a02?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_05

Edited January 25, 2023 by ozimoron

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

I suspect you're the one lacking understanding, in 2022 Germany provided  €2.24 billion including anti-aircraft tanks, multiple rocket launchers, the IRIS-T air defense system and self-propelled howitzers, among other pieces of military equipment to Ukraine. In 2023 they've already announced an extra €1bn spring military aid package. Now we have the tanks. Which also paves the way for other countries with Leopards to send theirs.

Yeah the way I see it is the other stuff sent was for defending, tanks are used for affensive action in the field hence the Germany's hesitation. 

[metisdead]

A post with a trolling meme has been removed.

[Eric Loh]

37 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah the way I see it is the other stuff sent was for defending, tanks are used for affensive action in the field hence the Germany's hesitation. 

The Ukrainians are fighting to liberate their country from Russian military aggression. How is that offensive? 

[placeholder]

59 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah the way I see it is the other stuff sent was for defending, tanks are used for affensive action in the field hence the Germany's hesitation. 

So according to your way of thinking the ukrainians should simply stay in place and leave the Russians with whatever Ukrainian territory they hold now?

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

No absolutely not. But I am aware of western "interference" in Ukraine's political landscape, which will certainly have been provocative from the Russian viewpoint. The narrative that there is no reason whatsoever that Russia should feel provoked and NATO are blameless, and we should all choose this as the hill to die on is IMO very misguided. I am also aware that pre invasion the western media narrative was that Ukraine had problems with a movement of evil political extremists fond of the German military of the 30's, don't hear much/anything about that these days. I think any unwelcome interference in other foreign nations is unacceptable.

 Whatever happened during Trump's term that kept Russia's neck wound in is worth repeating. Obama and Biden both saw Russian invasions of the Ukraine under their watch. Walking softly with a big stick, while encouraging negotiation and understanding = good. Firing missiles, rolling the tanks, and thinking the radioactive fallout wont reach the Thai beaches = bad.

“ Whatever happened during Trump's term that kept Russia's neck wound in is worth repeating.”

 

I take it you are referring to Trump’s attempted extortion, threatening to withhold arms shipments to Ukraine if Zelensky did not announce a fake investigation into Biden’s son.

 

No, none of that ‘is worth repeating’.

 

We don’t need US Presidents acting criminally and in their own personal interests and those of Putin:

 

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/trumps-extortion-ukraine-complete-government-shakedown/

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

So according to your way of thinking the ukrainians should simply stay in place and leave the Russians with whatever Ukrainian territory they hold now?

Just read it as whatever Putin says he wants.

[BE88]

2 hours ago, bannork said:

You assume the Russian operatives of these thousands of nuclear warheads want to die too.

When their own self destruction is assured too the ' I was just obeying orders' defence loses its appeal.

Yes, because they are Russian soldiers, sacrifice is a high honor.

[bangon04]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I find it somewhat strange that it's thought a few tanks will make the difference. Thousands certainly would, but is the west going to send thousands?

 

If the "western" countries such as Poland and Bulgaria and Slovakia and Slovenia sent 1000 T72s immediately it would make a difference because the Ukrainians are already well-trained to make use of them. The Leopards and Challengers could replace them slowly......

[Saanim]

3 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

No absolutely not. But I am aware of western "interference" in Ukraine's political landscape, which will certainly have been provocative from the Russian viewpoint. The narrative that there is no reason whatsoever that Russia should feel provoked and NATO are blameless, and we should all choose this as the hill to die on is IMO very misguided.

That's the expression "unprovoked" what was mentioned many times recently by Noah Chomsky (who else has the guts to call a spade a spade?) that he has googled and received thousands of results at the Ukraine conflict.  Not so at other wars (and there were just not few), never was spoken about a provocation.

 

Asking why it's so?

[scorecard]

9 hours ago, Mickeymaus said:

Very interesting strategy. If the last Ukrainian soldier is dead who will fight then? The West? 

Possibly YES.

 

On the other hand would you just sit and watch Putin inflicting severe pain and death to the rest of the world?

[Phoenix Rising]

3 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

What happens when soldiers who are not properly trained are sent into battle with unfamiliar equipment and weapons?   The only way to avoid disaster is to have embedded advisors.  I know this sounds like Vietnam but western Tanks and equipment are technically more complex than those made in Russia.  NATO should at least consider civilian technical advisors along with the tanks and other equipment.  

 

Simple question is this:  How long does it take to train a soldier to become a competent tank mechanic?  For the US Army at a minimum a 6 month technical school and almost a year of On The Job Training and Mentoring. 

It takes much less time to retrain a soldier who's already a tank mechanic on a different model than someone just out of basic training who's starting from scratch.

[Chomper Higgot]

More tanks on the way:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-abrams-tanks-ukraine

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

When?

A few days ago, I read an article about how long this will/would take.

Germany won't send the tanks which are currently used in their army. They will, if at all, send tanks from storage or ask the manufacturer to send tanks. This will take months - best case. 

As these tanks as well as the Abrams are not currently operational in Ukraine, it will take 30-60 days to train Ukraine military to learn operation and maintenance. But the timing for activation in Ukraine might be in the Spring, about when Russia plans its next big offensive. 

[Phoenix Rising]

3 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

No absolutely not. But I am aware of western "interference" in Ukraine's political landscape, which will certainly have been provocative from the Russian viewpoint. The narrative that there is no reason whatsoever that Russia should feel provoked and NATO are blameless, and we should all choose this as the hill to die on is IMO very misguided. I am also aware that pre invasion the western media narrative was that Ukraine had problems with a movement of evil political extremists fond of the German military of the 30's, don't hear much/anything about that these days. I think any unwelcome interference in other foreign nations is unacceptable.

 Whatever happened during Trump's term that kept Russia's neck wound in is worth repeating. Obama and Biden both saw Russian invasions of the Ukraine under their watch. Walking softly with a big stick, while encouraging negotiation and understanding = good. Firing missiles, rolling the tanks, and thinking the radioactive fallout wont reach the Thai beaches = bad.

I agree that Trump's blackmail of Ukraine for his own political purposes was outrageous and he should be tried as a traitor. That said, only one side started this war and that's Russia - everything else is just diversionary drivel that helps the murderer in Moscow.

[Saanim]

6 minutes ago, bangon04 said:

If the "western" countries such as Poland and Bulgaria and Slovakia and Slovenia sent 1000 T72s immediately it would make a difference because the Ukrainians are already well-trained to make use of them. The Leopards and Challengers could replace them slowly......

It would  be interesting to read the possible scenarios of this war ending? By some war experts, whatever they think could happen.  Any link?

[AndyFoxy]

10 hours ago, SunnyinBangrak said:

I expect the Russians will now see Germans as legitimate targets in this war now that they have joined in weaponizing Ukraine. 

 

 

Memories of Barbarossa