Land in wifes name. Can I have registered lease or usefruct?

[connda]

12 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Yeah, get a Thai lawyer and get his name on the chanote more like.

<deleted> are you talking about.  Don't chime in with utter nonsense.  Your spouting racial BS.  Don't.

[nigelforbes]

6 minutes ago, connda said:

<deleted> are you talking about.  Don't chime in with utter nonsense.  Your spouting racial BS.  Don't.

You say that but it did happen to an American friend nearby. He only found out fifteen years later when he took a more switched on Thai girlfriend who understood these things. It all came down to the source of the funds and the proof that he brought the money into Thailand to pay for the house. Were it not for the new girlfriend, he would never have known and at age 74 he might not be expected to live too much longer, after which the lawyer would own 15 mill baht of house.

[nigelforbes]

Heads up, serial emoticon posters go to a special place!

[bradiston]

28 minutes ago, connda said:

<deleted> are you talking about.  Don't chime in with utter nonsense.  Your spouting racial BS.  Don't.

Don't lecture me on Thai lawyers. I have my own experience of them. Are you some kind of self appointed moderator?

[ubonr1971]

3 hours ago, bradiston said:

Iirc 29. I'll fill in a little background, as it may be relevant. I had a long running battle with my neighbour, who sold my daughter the land. He vandalised my house, and in doing so, trespassed on my daughter's land and, according to the police charge sheet, caused a public disturbance. I had a visit from immigration around about the same time, even though the io office is an hour's boat ride away and they were only interested in 2 foreigners on the island. They wanted to see a TM30 from my daughter, which they hadn't received. I paid the fine in lieu of a long argument about property ownership. When they'd left, it occurred to me my position was tenuous as I had no written agreement with my daughter about permission to live there, so technically, could be said to be trespassing every time I crossed her land. Hence the visit to the land office pronto as soon as my daughter came over on her annual visit.

 

The usufruct is particularly useful in that it gives me a lot of control over the use of the house and land. It allows me to operate without POA from my daughter for much of the time, though obviously not for selling. But I can let, rent out, modify etc. It also gives me security for my lifetime. If there is such a thing! For me it was ideal.

so your daughter is above 18?

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, connda said:

Which mean?  Leases suck.  With a Usufruct, your on the Charnote.  Like a tick on the back of a dog.

So too with leases. I'm written into my wife's chanotes as the lessee, same as if we had a usufruct.

[bokningar]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

I suspect there's lots of assumption and bar talk/bar lawyer stuff here. 

 

This needs to be checked with a real and experienced lawyer.

 

I mention 'experienced' lawyer because not many lawyers are experienced regarding usufructs.

 

And there are amphurs / districts where the Land Titles Officer seniors will not allow usufructs. They are fully legal but as well known local interpretations do happen and there's nothing you can do o change that. 

 

My own experience. We live in Chiang Mai. Our family house and land is owned by my Thai adult (40 yo) Thai son. His name is on the back of the chanut as the owner.

 

There's also a usufruct in my name on the same property, all recorded on the back of the chanut. The usufruct is for life. I am the only person who can cancel it. It does auto ancel when I die.

 

Without my written permission the property cannot be sold or re-developed. 

So when it come down to it you might be more worth dead than alive  

[Venom]

The mother can put the children's name on the title deed, water and electric is not an issue. The main issue is can not sell the property until the child is 20 years old. She can cancel the lease if you <deleted> her off. If you are legally married in Thailand and can prove you paid for the land you may be entitled to 50% of the proceeds upon divorce but they will fight you tooth and nail. 

[bradiston]

9 hours ago, ubonr1971 said:

so your daughter is above 18?

Yes, and was at the time.

[nigelforbes]

A poster mentioned previously that being granted an usufruct means that person can sell the property at will, it doesn't! It means the holder has to agree to any sale and sign off on it but they cannot arbitrarily decide to sell and complete that sale, without the chanote holders agreement.

[AhFarangJa]

20 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

An usufruct between husband and wife is not valid.

Yes it is, We did it several years ago in Hua Hin. I know it is valid as we sold the property last year, and I had to sign a paper in the land office, and pay something around 1500 B to have it nullified.

[nigelforbes]

1 minute ago, AhFarangJa said:

Yes it is, We did it several years ago in Hua Hin. I know it is valid as we sold the property last year, and I had to sign a paper in the land office, and pay something around 1500 B to have it nullified.

You haven't understood.

 

The purpose of an usufruct is to guarantee the holder the right to live in the property in accordance with the specified term, be it 30 years or life. If the usufruct is granted by a spouse, divorce nullifies the usufruct, that has been proven in divorce court as other posters have confirmed. Therefore, the usufruct does not provide the protection that was expected and is therefore not valid. 

[KhunLA]

21 minutes ago, AhFarangJa said:

Yes it is, We did it several years ago in Hua Hin. I know it is valid as we sold the property last year, and I had to sign a paper in the land office, and pay something around 1500 B to have it nullified.

You were charged to nullify ?  SCAM

It's like a ฿20 paperwork fee, at Udon Thani land office.   7 usufructs cancelled/removed and never paid to do.

 

Did a lawyer do that for you, if so, might want to do things yourself at the land office.

[indyo]

100% life time usufruct at your name and will to your kids

[motdaeng]

40 minutes ago, nigelforbes said:

If the usufruct is granted by a spouse, divorce nullifies the usufruct, that has been proven

in divorce court as other posters have confirmed. Therefore, the usufruct does not provide

the protection that was expected and is therefore not valid. 

does every court nullifies the usufruct after a divorce?
is this a written law, or does the judge have final say?

 

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, indyo said:

100% life time usufruct at your name and will to your kids

I'd be surprised if you can will any contract to your kids, especially in Thailand.  I'd think most contract die with you.

 

If usufruct is for life, it would end with yours.

[yankyoakum]

We've been married 47 years, divorce ain't in the cards.. Thru this forum I read about Usufruct,  we retired here and this is the final stop, I think this is something I need in case I outlive wife..  Now to get a lawyer and hope the land office in Sattahip doesn't't cause problems.

[nigelforbes]

16 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

does every court nullifies the usufruct after a divorce?
is this a written law, or does the judge have final say?

 

My understanding is that the spouse who granted the usufruct has to apply to have it nullified, in which case it will almost certainly be granted.

[nigelforbes]

27 minutes ago, indyo said:

100% life time usufruct at your name and will to your kids

A superficies can be willed but an usufruct cannot.

[Foghorn]

Devorce her,  make an usafruct,  the marry again 

[1FinickyOne]

15 hours ago, connda said:

With a Usufruct, your on the Charnote.  Like a tick on the back of a dog. 

Something most of us don't really aspire towards being... thus I have no usufruct or lease - - 

[brianthainess]

I read about a Lawyer Firm in ISSAN that will give you a legal letter for Usufruct to take to your land office cost was 4k. 

[KhunLA]

28 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

Something most of us don't really aspire towards being... thus I have no usufruct or lease - - 

I only have JIC the wife/holder of the chanote, dies before me.   I know I'll have say if transferred/sold, or at least, place to live if wanting.  Mute now since daughter's name also on everything now.

 

Trust the wife, if not, I'd have bought a condo and simply stayed nomadic.  Though worse came to worse, it's only ฿2 mill and no great loss.  Without her/2nd wife, we couldn't have invested in 2nd house which paid for this house.  If she can put up with me for 17 yrs now, so far, she can have.

 

1st house/wife, no usufruct till transferred to present wife's name.  Very ignorant when I landed here, but knew not to invest anything I couldn't walk away from.   Didn't happen, though house was only $20k USD anyway, so wouldn't have been much of a loss, and lived there for 5 ish years anyway, before transferred out of 1st wife's name.  Cheaper than rent.

 

IF you're getting a usufruct for unknown/lack of trust... rent or buy a condo, if the loss would hurt you financially.

[indyo]

so is there any way to protect the land? purchase it by a company is risky, lease can be cancelled after 1 year divorce and usufruct granted by wife does not work

[KhunLA]

7 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

I read about a Lawyer Firm in ISSAN that will give you a legal letter for Usufruct to take to your land office cost was 4k. 

Why would you need ?

 

You and holder of chanote, simply say you want a usufrunct, and for simple fee ~100 baht, the prints off the fill in the blanks form (filled out) and you both sign.

 

Don't need lawyer or anything.   Don't know why people think they need lawyers for everything.

[KhunLA]

2 minutes ago, indyo said:

so is there any way to protect the land? purchase it by a company is risky, lease can be cancelled after 1 year divorce and usufruct granted by wife does not work

If you have to ask that question, I suggest you rent or buy a condo.

Pretty much -0- risk.

[brianthainess]

Just now, KhunLA said:

Why would you need ?

 

You and holder of chanote, simply say you want a usufrunct, and for simple fee ~100 baht, the prints off the fill in the blanks form (filled out) and you both sign.

 

Don't need lawyer or anything.   Don't know why people think they need lawyers for everything.

I am aware of that but, as said Some land offices don't want to comply with the law, especially for Falangs

[paddypower]

20 hours ago, khunPer said:

Usufruct can last for 30 years or for your life; it's a minor fee to register and it's often easily done.

 

When registering a lease agreement, which can be from 3 year and up to 30 years, you need to pay tax for the full registered period.

 

A lease can include transfer to third party – i.e., you can sell a remaining period of an lease agreement – or be inherited, while an usufruct cannot be transferred or inherited.

 

Check that title deed is nor sor see – i.e. nor sor 4 or "Chanute" title – for full ownership.

 

In both cases – usufract or lease – be aware of the contracts between husband and wife can be declared void, so having a servitude on land owned by a spouse, is not a solid guarantee of financial protection. Furthermore, when looking at worst case scenario, in my view it important that being worth more alive than dead.

 

A minor can own land, but under guardian; so the land can normally not be mortgaged, sold or transferred as long as the owner is minor. When I registered for electric before I had a house book, I could register in my girlfriends name using her house book-registration, even it was an address in another province about 1,000 kilometers away.

 

A foreigner can own a house, but not the land under the house. So if you intend to build something on "your" land, you shall have a superficies servitude. To prove that you are owner, you shall have architect drawings with your name; building permission issued to your name (here you need the superficies or other similar permission from the landowner); building constructor contract(s) in your name; any money transfers from your bank account or cash receipts with your name on it. These documents are your proof of ownership – the building can then be sold or transferred separated from the land and register to a new owner.

 

Being owner of a building with a house book, you can have electric connection.

My recommendation: Put the land in your child's name with you as guardian...????

Thanks for that. Very impressive summary, which will be useful to us. Thais own land, thru a company. (we're both expats and have zero %). so, do I understand you,, if we go to get a  30 year lease, we have to pay tax ( that is my understanding). But we can avoid paying tax,if we register an Usufruct?

16 hours ago, connda said:

Which mean?  Leases suck.  With a Usufruct, your on the Charnote.  Like a tick on the back of a dog.  Of course - if someone purchases the land they can use "tick remover", but???  Legally?  Buy some protection.

 

[ubonr1971]

13 hours ago, Venom said:

water and electric is not an issue.

Incorrect. PEA electric do not allow account in childs name. Water can do

[ubonr1971]

5 hours ago, nigelforbes said:

You haven't understood.

 

The purpose of an usufruct is to guarantee the holder the right to live in the property in accordance with the specified term, be it 30 years or life. If the usufruct is granted by a spouse, divorce nullifies the usufruct, that has been proven in divorce court as other posters have confirmed. Therefore, the usufruct does not provide the protection that was expected and is therefore not valid. 

So are you saying that a 30 year lease registered at the land office is better? With evidence that taxes were paid when registering makes it set in stone as long as terms of the lease are adhered to?