Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV !

[In the jungle]

23 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I can see why you’ll think that, but I suggest you have a look at the fastest cars around the Nurburgring, they are generally stunningly fast.

That is why I said most EVs.  There are notable exceptions at the expensive end of the market.

 

There is a good video put up today by Rory at Autotrader comparing the Taycan, Tesla Model S track and the Audi Taycan equivalent.  The Taycan and Tesla are such exceptions.  Not sure about the Audi which seems a bit luxo-barge biased to do well in stock form at the Nurburgring.

 

And of course Nurburgring is only seven or eight minutes, as opposed to the 24 hours of Le Mans.

 

And note the part in the video where he says you need to cool the battery of the Tesla for 20 minutes to get full performance for 2.3 seconds.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by In the jungle

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

So who you are saying, I am wrong, whilst at the same time agreeing with me, is this the normal logic from a chemist?

 

I am confused.

Why are you confused? We all are different, what turns your crank won't necessarily turn mine.

 

Cold logic says a brand new car is possibly the worst financial decision anyone can make, short of taking up maxi yacht racing. In one sentence, depreciation as soon as said new vehicle rolls out of the show room floor.

 

Some people get excited when they get a new car. I get excited when I can pick up a low mileage car for 200 - 250 K baht less than someone paid for it a couple of years ago.

 

Perhaps off topic, I looked at renting an EV on an upcoming holiday. 2000 baht/day for a BYD vs 800 baht/day for a Nissan Almera, no thanks.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

So true, though not a big fan of that thinking.   Though SAIC & MG been putting out autos long enough, EVs, not till 2019, w/ZS, being 1st production EV.  Gave that a pass, though not even considering, TBH, as not paying 1.2M for any 4 wheels.  Just not car kind of guy.

 

2022 version came with a couple nice upgrades.  Now having solar & govt incentives, so a no brainer at that time.  240k baht is damn good motivating incentive.

 

Took a small hit selling the only 2 yr old ICE version, as I usually keep things for 125-150k kms.

 

TBH, 949k is still a silly price for 4 wheels, in my car world, but ROI (hopefully) & operating cost, along with performance was well worth it.

 

Seriously couldn't see myself going back to an ICEV.

Given the cost advantages you are getting from generating your own electricity, the last sentence is no surprise.

 

You "took a small hit selling the only 2 yr old ICE version". It will be interesting to see what kind of hits are generated when secondhand EV's start coming on the market, as I suspect would-be buyers will be wondering how much battery is left.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, In the jungle said:

I haven't tried.  I have probably done around 120kph max indicated in the Celerio.  I wouldn't want to drive any car at 160kph on Thai roads.

 

One of the problems with the Neta is that it only does 120kph max.  That is just not enough margin of safety for overtaking.

A manual Celerio would be superior to the Neta in higher speed overtaking, as the Neta is a single speed gear. An automatic Celerio, CVT gearbox, probably less efficient.

I'm just wondering how many people still drive manuals, pretty sure millennials would not have a clue unless they were driving older trucks or farm equipment.

I like the fact manuals and torque box automatics give an alternative escape route if brakes fail. I am uncomfortable with CVT's for the same reason.

[KhunLA]

52 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

It will be interesting to see what kind of hits are generated when secondhand EV's start coming on the market, as I suspect would-be buyers will be wondering how much battery is left.

The car itself will give you that info, and an easy calculation.  After 1 yr, almost, our ZS battery has degraded about 0.5%, after shy of 20k kms.

 

If that hold, over the 8 yr warranty, then all of 4% loss.  If we continue to drive 20k kms a year, and that's highly doubtful.  So the most negative degradation we can expect.

 

Not bad at all considering the longevity of the battery bank, and should provide decades or driving.   If the rest of the car lasts as long ????, or gets added to the solar system.  Either works for us/wife. 

 

Many consider 2500 cycles to be a very conservative number:

Edited October 15, 2023 by KhunLA

[In the jungle]

3 hours ago, Lacessit said:

A manual Celerio would be superior to the Neta in higher speed overtaking, as the Neta is a single speed gear. An automatic Celerio, CVT gearbox, probably less efficient.

I'm just wondering how many people still drive manuals, pretty sure millennials would not have a clue unless they were driving older trucks or farm equipment.

I like the fact manuals and torque box automatics give an alternative escape route if brakes fail. I am uncomfortable with CVT's for the same reason.

I have only owned cars with manual transmissions.  The Celerio manual is 2.5 seconds quicker 0-100 kph than the CVT variant.  It is quicker 0-100 than any Suzuki Swift model available today.  The peformance is, of course, due to light weight rather than because it is massively powerful and the manual variant of the Celerio is 45kg lighter than the CVT. 

 

The fact that it has a manual transmission is a key reason why I bought it and manuals are fun.  I want to be engaged in the process of driving as you are with a manual. 

 

I like manual transmissions because they give the most direct relationship between application of throttle and what is delivered at the driven wheels.  With any type of automatic gearbox you do not have that.

 

I was not budget constrained in buying the Celerio.  I bought it because I liked it.  I have two other cars which are considerably more expensive and, of course, they are also manual.

 

EVs also give you a direct relationship between application of throttle and what is delivered at the wheels though in many cases the manufacturer has chosen to put electronic interference between the throttle and the driven wheels.  But EVs currently fall down in another of my purchasing criteria which is light weight.  I have owned very few cars over 1000kg and many have been considerably lighter.

 

Most EVs do a very good job of disguising their weight by weight distribution but ultimately weight compromises their dynamic properties.  That isn't a matter of subjective opinion.  It is physics.   

[Bandersnatch]

11 hours ago, In the jungle said:

Most EVs are a bit of a one trick pony in terms of performance.  Good at traffic light drag racing but compromised in other respects by weight

You couldn’t be more wrong. My new EV has a structural battery pack which great torsional rigidity. The weight is set down low under the car with perfect weight distribution. 

 

 

 

[sirineou]

EVs are not going anywhere , the only thing that will change is the way the electricity is delivered to the vehicle. 

Right now the infustracture exists where the EV has a battery that could be charged at home or a charging station,  but as use becomes widespread the load on such infrastructure will cause a strain

How about id you could pour electricity on a liquid container and pour it in your car like you do now with gas, That would be  game changer , right?

There are many types pf batteries available and being developed but all have their challenges. 

Hydrogen fuel cell , is just another battery, the energy is poured in the medium while the hydrogen is separated, and the electric energy is removed from it as it is used my the EV, then you go to a hydrogen station and refill. 

The challenge is that there are very few  Hydrogen fill stations, but that will change , like it is changing with traditional charging stations. 

EVs are not going anywhere, they are easy to produce and easy to maintain. 

But the Battery medium will change, I foresee a Hydrogen powered EV, in everyone's life.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, sirineou said:

EVs are not going anywhere , the only thing that will change is the way the electricity is delivered to the vehicle. 

Right now the infustracture exists where the EV has a battery that could be charged at home or a charging station,  but as use becomes widespread the load on such infrastructure will cause a strain

How about id you could pour electricity on a liquid container and pour it in your car like you do now with gas, That would be  game changer , right?

There are many types pf batteries available and being developed but all have their challenges. 

Hydrogen fuel cell , is just another battery, the energy is poured in the medium while the hydrogen is separated, and the electric energy is removed from it as it is used my the EV, then you go to a hydrogen station and refill. 

The challenge is that there are very few  Hydrogen fill stations, but that will change , like it is changing with traditional charging stations. 

EVs are not going anywhere, they are easy to produce and easy to maintain. 

But the Battery medium will change, I foresee a Hydrogen powered EV, in everyone's life.

 

 

Hydrogen will always cost three times as much as plain, old electricity, so whilst I think there may well be hydrogen EV’s, BEV’s will always be peoples first choice but market dynamics will take care of the rest.

[BKKBike09]

5 hours ago, In the jungle said:

I like manual transmissions because they give the most direct relationship between application of throttle and what is delivered at the driven wheels.  With any type of automatic gearbox you do not have that.

Volkswagen DSG auto box (I have a (now very old) Scirocco) gives that experience - in fact you could argue better than manual because you don't need to lift off at all when shifting and the shift is quicker than a manual change. Now if only they'd made the Scirocco AWD or RWD.

 

I've also got a BYD Atto. Handles like a boat on the stock rubber / suspension, but it's a very relaxing car to drive if not hammering it. If you can charge at home and your journeys are typically less than 300 km round trips, EVs are great. But certainly not suitable as a blanket replacement for ICE, at least not until charging takes 15 min or less and chargers are literally everywhere. Which is going to take a long time. Where all that power will come from is another thorny issue.

 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I foresee a Hydrogen powered EV, in everyone's life.

H2 is just not economic to produce in a sustainable way. When I make power from my solar system to put in my electric car there is some small efficiency loss due to the inversion process, but over 90% of the energy ends up in my car. 
 
With current electrolyzers, green hydrogen's efficiency is around 30%, which means 70% of the renewable energy put into producing green hydrogen is lost across the full cycle of production and use.

Good luck with Hydrogen in Thailand. Where are you going to buy your Hydrogen car  - none for sale here. Toyota keeps making promises about it's Mirai but you can't buy it here. Then where will you fill it up? Thailand has no public H2 filling stations.

 

 

[Gweiloman]

All these talk about how an EV might perform at Le Mans and so on is just plain pointless and irrelevant to this thread. The average car buyer doesn’t care how well his or her car will perform at Le Mans and probably won’t be able to afford such a car anyway. Similarly with MT or AT transmission. Most daily drivers would prefer AT especially when having to drive during peak hours and in traffic jams, coupled with the fact that a lot of them won’t know how to drive a MT car.

 

[In the jungle]

30 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

Volkswagen DSG auto box (I have a (now very old) Scirocco) gives that experience - in fact you could argue better than manual because you don't need to lift off at all when shifting and the shift is quicker than a manual change. Now if only they'd made the Scirocco AWD or RWD.

 

I've also got a BYD Atto. Handles like a boat on the stock rubber / suspension, but it's a very relaxing car to drive if not hammering it. If you can charge at home and your journeys are typically less than 300 km round trips, EVs are great. But certainly not suitable as a blanket replacement for ICE, at least not until charging takes 15 min or less and chargers are literally everywhere. Which is going to take a long time. Where all that power will come from is another thorny issue.

 

Porsche have argued endlessly. supported by hard facts that their equivalent auto box for the 911 is superior to a manual transmission but people still demand the manual and the manual commands a premium on the used market. 

 

I have a soft spot for the Scirocco.  I had a second gen which I bought brand new in 1986.

[In the jungle]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

You couldn’t be more wrong. My new EV has a structural battery pack which great torsional rigidity. The weight is set down low under the car with perfect weight distribution. 

 

 

 

Did you ever wonder why race cars are always built to the minimum allowable weight?

[Bandersnatch]

25 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

I've also got a BYD Atto. Handles like a boat on the stock rubber / suspension

Next time you’re driving by your local BYD dealer, take the BYD Seal for a test drive. It has very impressive handling and is shod in 19inch 235/45-profile Continental SportContact rubber.

 

The 3.8sec 0-100kph AWD version has semi adaptive suspension and Intelligent Torque Adaption Control.

 

[In the jungle]

18 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

All these talk about how an EV might perform at Le Mans and so on is just plain pointless and irrelevant to this thread. The average car buyer doesn’t care how well his or her car will perform at Le Mans and probably won’t be able to afford such a car anyway. Similarly with MT or AT transmission. Most daily drivers would prefer AT especially when having to drive during peak hours and in traffic jams, coupled with the fact that a lot of them won’t know how to drive a MT car.

 

More than 80% of cars sold in Europe are manual transmission.  There is a good reason for that.

[Bandersnatch]

10 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

Did you ever wonder why race cars are always built to the minimum allowable weight?

No

[KhunLA]

18 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

More than 80% of cars sold in Europe are manual transmission.  There is a good reason for that.

What, they can't afford ATs ?

 

Only time and reason I bought a MT is because it was cheaper.  

 

Speed limits in TH, with few exceptions, 30-60-90kph.  No need for a race car here, especially since roads aren't build for speed.

Edited October 16, 2023 by KhunLA

[BenStark]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:15 PM, JBChiangRai said:

Funny how nobody with an EV seems to agree with the OP

 

it must be nice to be blissfully ignorant

Have you ever seen an alcoholic agree that excessive alcohol intake is bad for the body?

[Bandersnatch]

1 minute ago, BenStark said:

Have you ever seen an alcoholic agree that excessive alcohol intake is bad for the body?

Were you drunk when you wrote this?

[BenStark]

47 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

coupled with the fact that a lot of them won’t know how to drive a MT car.

You're American, correct?

[BenStark]

2 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Were you drunk when you wrote this?

Were you ignorant when you replied to my post?

 

No need to answer, as it is obvious from about every other of your posts in this thread

[JBChiangRai]

16 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Have you ever seen an alcoholic agree that excessive alcohol intake is bad for the body?

I bow to your superior firsthand experience

[JBChiangRai]

45 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

More than 80% of cars sold in Europe are manual transmission.  There is a good reason for that.

In the UK it is price

[Bandersnatch]

19 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Were you ignorant when you replied to my post?

 

No need to answer, as it is obvious from about every other of your posts in this thread

 

This is a discussion about EVs. I’ve just bought my second and you don’t own any and yet you think I’m ignorant about EVS.

 

Stick to subjects that you actually know something about.

 

 

 

 

[BenStark]

1 minute ago, Bandersnatch said:

 

This is a discussion about EVs. I’ve just bought my second and you don’t own any and yet you think I’m ignorant about EVS.

 

Stick to subjects that you actually know something about.

 

 

 

 

Going through someone's post history is poor netiquette, but obviously you are ignorant about that as well.

 

You really think that having purchased an EV, makes you knowledgeable about everything EV?

 

I would say it actually confirms your ignorance

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, BenStark said:

I would say it actually confirms your ignorance

Most EV owners are enthusiastic and buy them after becoming subject matter experts.

 

Most anti-EV’ers just confirm their ignorance with the comments they post.

 

 

[BenStark]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Most EV owners are enthusiastic and buy them after becoming subject matter experts.

May I refer you to this quote, posted by another EV enthusiast in another thread.

 

You remind me of a Steven Hawkins quote. “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, BenStark said:

May I refer you to this quote, posted by another EV enthusiast in another thread.

 

You remind me of a Steven Hawkins quote. “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”

And you remind me of someone with a hair loss problem.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, In the jungle said:

More than 80% of cars sold in Europe are manual transmission.  There is a good reason for that.

Let’s not forget, ICE cars need multiple gears or CVT to compensate for lack of power at low revs, EV’s deliver broadly similar power across the rev range. It’s one of the reasons why they feel so quick.