Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

If that's the case 1400 Israeli's who were killed by Hamas is also a war situation. Deal with that.

 

 

No, it is not the same.

Specifically targeting civilians is forbidden. That happened on the Hamas attack.

Launching unguided rockets on civilian populations is also forbidden. Hamas did and does that.

 

Civilians dying as a result of attack on enemy/military forces - depends on the circumstances, the means used and so on.

Most of the IDF attacks would probably fit within existing legal frames. Not all, for sure.

 

 

That's how international law works.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Have you ever considered why?

Why what?

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So 5,000 plus Palestinians killed since the 7th is small potatoes, tell that to the Palestinians, and while your at it tell the Israeli's 1400 slaughtered by Hamas is small potatoes too. 

 

Do you always fail to read the context of the posts you reply to? Always intentionally ignore what's actually posted.

Here - in comparison with other conflicts in the region, the death toll is relatively low. Feel better now? Consider how many were killed in the Syrian Civil War. The Lebanese Civil war. The Iraq Wars. The Iraq-Iran wars. And so on.

 

I think the word you're missing is proportion.

[Jeff the Chef]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

No, it is not the same.

Specifically targeting civilians is forbidden. That happened on the Hamas attack.

Launching unguided rockets on civilian populations is also forbidden. Hamas did and does that.

 

Civilians dying as a result of attack on enemy/military forces - depends on the circumstances, the means used and so on.

Most of the IDF attacks would probably fit within existing legal frames. Not all, for sure.

 

 

That's how international law works.

Hamas did target civilians and launched rockets into Israel which is without doubt a war crime, fact. So therefore as you say "Not all, for sure." must also be a war crime, to wrongs do not make a right for either side.

 

 

[Jeff the Chef]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Do you always fail to read the context of the posts you reply to? Always intentionally ignore what's actually posted.

Here - in comparison with other conflicts in the region, the death toll is relatively low. Feel better now? Consider how many were killed in the Syrian Civil War. The Lebanese Civil war. The Iraq Wars. The Iraq-Iran wars. And so on.

 

I think the word you're missing is proportion.

Yes, I have read the posts in this thread that is why I commented.

 

What has proportion got to do with any amount of death in any war?

 

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Hamas did target civilians and launched rockets into Israel which is without doubt a war crime, fact. So therefore as you say "Not all, for sure." must also be a war crime, to wrongs do not make a right for either side.

 

 

 

No, you got it wrong. Technically, each rocket launched (or pod of rockets) is by itself an instance of war crime. It doesn't matter whether it hit something or not. It's the-intention-that-counts sort of thing.

 

As said, I'm sure some of Israel's actions will be found to be war crimes, that's pretty routine for any army and conflict. But I think that most will fall within the confines of law. There are all sorts of consideration - warning citizens, armaments used, value of target vs. risk to civilians etc. It's really not quite straightforward as people imagine it to be.

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Yes, I have read the posts in this thread that is why I commented.

 

What has proportion got to do with any amount of death in any war?

 

 

You obviously haven't understood then. Let me clue you in real quick:

 

Poster A commented that civilians die at pretty much any war, so what is special about this case.

Poster B replied with a one liner about 'intent and scale', apparently claiming it's different somehow this time.

Poster A countered with a list of conflicts and casualty figures demonstrating the limited scale (in comparison) of the current conflict's death toll.

Morch (that's me) missed poster A's comment and posted something in a similar spirit.

Jeff (that's you) came online, looked for a trolling opportunity, and failed.

 

Real easy stuff.

[Skipalongcassidy]

18 hours ago, Walker88 said:

Nonsense.

 

What would your messiah trump do?

 

No doubt toss rolls of paper towels.

 

Or maybe pressure Netanyahu to offer up some dirt on Biden in exchange for aid.

This isn't about Trump... this is about Joe and what is he to do... other than take a vacation that is.

[JBChiangRai]

9 hours ago, JBChiangRai said:

I never said Israel has no justification to ask for its hostages back, read my posts and tell me where I said that? If you can’t I will accept your apology.

 

9 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

Yes you did, your exact words were "Its wrong for Israel to use this as a lever"

 

Go back in your hole

 

I’m calling BS.

 

Those two statements are not the same, not even remotely the same.

 

My comment said it was wrong for Israel to use bombing and massacring innocent civilians as a lever to get their citizens back. It couldn’t be farther from your fanciful interpretation.

 

Are you incapable of reading and comprehending English?

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I’m calling BS.

 

Those two statements are not the same, not even remotely the same.

 

My comment said it was wrong for Israel to use bombing and massacring innocent civilians as a lever to get their citizens back. It couldn’t be farther from your fanciful interpretation.

 

Are you incapable of reading and comprehending English?

 

"I’m calling BS."

 

I expected you would after such a shameful statement

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

Yes,but not built by hamas,built by UNESCO,power plant also not biult by hamas.hamas use all the money they receive from EU,USA etc. to build their war machine.

LOL.

 

Do you think they spend as much money from the EU, USA etc on weapons as israel does with the money it gets from the US? Israel doesn't get all those tanks and aircraft for free.

Are you saying Hamas does not have a right to defend Gaza from israeli aggression?

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Yes, I have read the posts in this thread that is why I commented.

 

What has proportion got to do with any amount of death in any war?

 

Certain posters seem to think that as it's only 4 thousand Gazans dead that's OK because it's not as much as in Syria.

Only 2 point something million Palestinians live in Gaza, and how many in Syria?

 

The US continues to show its hypocrisy by calling on Lebanon and Iran not to get involved while arming israel to the teeth.

 

IMO US and EU "diplomacy" has well and truly failed, given the continued bombing of civilians in Gaza, and they should be worried about the huge rage against israel and any that support it as evidenced by the massive demonstrations against israel all over the world.

[RanongCat]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

From your previous post:

 

"that it is the result of typical US  military tactics as advised/prescribed to IDF strategy".

 

Sounded like you're trying to make into a USA/Israel thing. If you accept all armies do it, not sure what your point was.

 

It seems that  you have lost track of  which topic you are defending genocidal intent in .

This one is discussing Biden and Sunak ( US & UK ) and diplomacy as relates to Gaza & Israel.

I did not make it anything.

Do you suggest all armies are advised by the US & UK ? Small wonder the world is rapidly turning into a warring mess.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

This isn't about Trump... this is about Joe and what is he to do... other than take a vacation that is.

I think Trump lives in his head as he talks about him so much.

[JBChiangRai]

44 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

"I’m calling BS."

 

I expected you would after such a shameful statement

 

I can read my posts for you, but I can’t understand them for you.

 

I suggest you practice your English comprehension.

[thaibeachlovers]

I never thought I'd agree with an Iranian official, but when one calls Biden a hypocrite for calling on Iran not to expand the conflict while arming israel ( as reported on Al Jazeera ) I have to agree as that was already my opinion.

Meanwhile the border with Lebanon is apparently becoming a war zone, and Hezbollah is ready for an invasion by israel.

[Bkk Brian]

18 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

I can read my posts for you, but I can’t understand them for you.

 

I suggest you practice your English comprehension.

No need. I read english perfectly. Your digging again.

[Yellowtail]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never thought I'd agree with an Iranian official, but when one calls Biden a hypocrite for calling on Iran not to expand the conflict while arming israel ( as reported on Al Jazeera ) I have to agree as that was already my opinion.

Meanwhile the border with Lebanon is apparently becoming a war zone, and Hezbollah is ready for an invasion by israel.

I always knew you would. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL.

 

Do you think they spend as much money from the EU, USA etc on weapons as israel does with the money it gets from the US? Israel doesn't get all those tanks and aircraft for free.

Are you saying Hamas does not have a right to defend Gaza from israeli aggression?

 

 

The point was Hamas did not invest in the desalination facility, nor built it. You can't deal with it, hence the deflection.

 

As for the rest of your nonsense - how does Hamas 'defend' the Gaza Strip? Do tell. Does Israel normally attack the Gaza Strip without Hamas going on the war path first? Does Hamas invest effort and funds to protect citizens? Bomb shelters? Relocating facilities away from civilians? Strive to end these conflagrations as quick as possible? Let citizens evacuate?

 

Defend Gaza how?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Certain posters seem to think that as it's only 4 thousand Gazans dead that's OK because it's not as much as in Syria.

Only 2 point something million Palestinians live in Gaza, and how many in Syria?

 

The US continues to show its hypocrisy by calling on Lebanon and Iran not to get involved while arming israel to the teeth.

 

IMO US and EU "diplomacy" has well and truly failed, given the continued bombing of civilians in Gaza, and they should be worried about the huge rage against israel and any that support it as evidenced by the massive demonstrations against israel all over the world.

 

Several poster cannot read a topic and follow an exchange. If they can, and still come up with something as posted above, it's all the more sad.

 

Hypocrisy how? Do you think that Iran and Hezbollah getting more heavily involved would be a positive development? You desire more death and destruction? Or were you talking about your own hypocrisy? Hard to follow your twisted train of thought sometimes.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, RanongCat said:

It seems that  you have lost track of  which topic you are defending genocidal intent in .

This one is discussing Biden and Sunak ( US & UK ) and diplomacy as relates to Gaza & Israel.

I did not make it anything.

Do you suggest all armies are advised by the US & UK ? Small wonder the world is rapidly turning into a warring mess.

 

 

There is no genocide, and no 'genocidal intent' other than in your imagination. If Israel was bent on that, casualty figures would be way higher.  Civilians get killed in wars.

 

No confusion, and I was responding to a comment you made on this topic. How is that 'losing track'?

 

I wasn't suggesting that a tall. You were (and are) apparently suggesting that what we're witnessing is the product of some US (and now UK) strategy carried out by Israel. You do not provide support for that, and you deny that the same could be seen on conflicts all over the world, whether or not the US, UK and Israel are involved.

 

Either you're not making yourself very clear, or perhaps it is you that got confused by your own faulty 'argument'.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I never thought I'd agree with an Iranian official, but when one calls Biden a hypocrite for calling on Iran not to expand the conflict while arming israel ( as reported on Al Jazeera ) I have to agree as that was already my opinion.

Meanwhile the border with Lebanon is apparently becoming a war zone, and Hezbollah is ready for an invasion by israel.

 

How is Biden (and the USA) expanding the conflict? Did Biden call on other nations to militarily intervene? Did the USA carry out attacks against anyone in this current war?

 

Amusing that you talk about 'hypocrisy' while referring to Al Jazeera, or buying comments from Iranian officials wholesale.

 

[Jeff the Chef]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

No, you got it wrong. Technically, each rocket launched (or pod of rockets) is by itself an instance of war crime. It doesn't matter whether it hit something or not. It's the-intention-that-counts sort of thing.

 

As said, I'm sure some of Israel's actions will be found to be war crimes, that's pretty routine for any army and conflict. But I think that most will fall within the confines of law. There are all sorts of consideration - warning citizens, armaments used, value of target vs. risk to civilians etc. It's really not quite straightforward as people imagine it to be.

So we agree that both sides are committing war crimes but the Israeli's, not so much according to you?

Which ever way you cut this crimes against humanity whether it is the Hamas raid on the 7th or the Israeli response since is still war crimes.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So we agree that both sides are committing war crimes but the Israeli's, not so much according to you?

Which ever way you cut this crimes against humanity whether it is the Hamas raid on the 7th or the Israeli response since is still war crimes.

 

You missed that its the intent that counts. Hamas's barbaric war crimes against civilians, raping, torturing, beheading, executing and kidnapping was done with intent. 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

You missed that its the intent that counts. Hamas's barbaric war crimes against civilians, raping, torturing, beheading, executing and kidnapping was done with intent. 

Those here who make excuses for the executioners and body dismemberment of kids will in no way listen to the facts.

They are creepy creeps........🥴

[Jeff the Chef]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You obviously haven't understood then. Let me clue you in real quick:

 

Poster A commented that civilians die at pretty much any war, so what is special about this case.

Poster B replied with a one liner about 'intent and scale', apparently claiming it's different somehow this time.

Poster A countered with a list of conflicts and casualty figures demonstrating the limited scale (in comparison) of the current conflict's death toll.

Morch (that's me) missed poster A's comment and posted something in a similar spirit.

Jeff (that's you) came online, looked for a trolling opportunity, and failed.

 

Real easy stuff.

What the heck are you on about? I have no idea what this trolling lark is you're on about, I'm replying to posts that I consider to be unfair to the whole situation, if that's trolling so be it, but if people say things that is all biased to one side their going to get a reply, as I said before neither side is a angel in any of this. 

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So we agree that both sides are committing war crimes but the Israeli's, not so much according to you?

Which ever way you cut this crimes against humanity whether it is the Hamas raid on the 7th or the Israeli response since is still war crimes.

Exactly! You're a cook right jeff? If you served fish and someone choked to death on a bone, that would be exactly the same as is you beat them to death with a meat mallet, correct? 

 

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly. 

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, transam said:

Those here who make excuses for the executioners and body dismemberment of kids will in no way listen to the facts.

They are creepy creeps........🥴

 

To be honest I just don't understand their mindsets. Attempting to minimize the extend of the Hamas barbaric attacks and make comparisons with Israel's retaliation is sick.

[transam]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

 

To be honest I just don't understand their mindsets. Attempting to minimize the extend of the Hamas barbaric attacks and make comparisons with Israel's retaliation is sick.

Frauditors, anti's, stop oil daft folk, they are everywhere................🥴

[Jeff the Chef]

7 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

You missed that its the intent that counts. Hamas's barbaric war crimes against civilians, raping, torturing, beheading, executing and kidnapping was done with intent. 

And the Israeli response had no intent on killing innocent Palestinians, only on eliminating the Hamas terrorists, yeah right, you cannot have it that way as both parties are as bad as one another, killing innocents on either side is a International War Crime.