Non-immigration "O" voluntary visa application process - changes in rules, major problems - solutions?

[sebhoff]

I'm clutching at straws here - but perhaps I can get some helpful input on visa problems that seem hard to solve...

 

I'm wondering whether anyone here can shed light on possible solutions for getting non-immigration "O" voluntary visas for Thailand. I know a number of Germans doing a voluntary social year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year) who are currently in Thailand as part of the official "weltwärts" programme that is funded by the German government - which is about as legit a programme as it can get. So we are not talking about abusing the system...

 

For some of these volunteers, the visa application process was unsuccessful when they applied back in Germany - because the Thai government is apparently currently trying to crack down on people abusing the old system. As a result, new rules now require written consent not only from the organisation that they are doing voluntary service with but also from a governmental/ministerial office that is in charge of the organisation in question. For various reasons (e.g. the ministerial office isn't aware of the new rules, this particular branch of the NGO is not officially recognised by the government (while their "head office" in Bangkok is), etc.) this type of document cannot be obtained for some of the volunteers, and as a result the relevant visa is not issued. Other volunteers were initially successful in securing the non-immigrant "O" visa but now face difficulties when extending this to a full year, and are about to leave the country to (probably) come back as tourists.

 

A number of these volunteers did enter Thailand on the 30-day visa-exempt scheme and tried to change their visa to a non-immigrant "O" voluntary visa locally (using TM.87). In the case of the people in Phuket, for example, this was not successful. They then extended their 30-day tourist status by another 30 days and recently left the country for Malaysia once no solution could be found during this period. They are planning to re-enter the country again for 30 days as tourists, hoping that something can finally be done to solve the situation.

 

One solution that has been proposed to them is to apply for an education visa as soon as they are back in the country. This would be a more costly option, but at least they get some language lessons in return. What's unclear to me is whether their ED-visa will allow them to do volunteer work. They do not receive any money from their local organisations and their accommodation and food is paid for by the German government (and by the German institution that sent them abroad). I've seen conflicting evidence about whether this could technically get them into trouble or not - and I'd really like to know...

 

Another solution for people whose local branch of the NGO does not have the necessary status might be to apply for a non-immigrant "O" visa in Bangkok (at least this was suggested by the local immigration office). Assuming that they manage to get this done, how problematic would it be to do their volunteering in a different province than where their visa was issued?

 

Some volunteers have been advised to use the services of local agencies, but it is my impression that many of these offer fairly fishy services that explore dubious loopholes/involve bribes etc. It doesn't sound to me as if participants of an official programme funded by the German government should have to rely on this type of solution...? 

 

Anyway - any thoughts, helpful comments, suggestions?

Many thanks in advance!

[DrJack54]

Bump thread as no replies.

 

So OP, cut to the chase.

How long do these folk want to stay in Thailand? 

Thailand offers a METV that can provide up to 9 months stay albeit requires exits from Thailand.

However that needs to be obtained in home country or country where person has permanent residence status.

 

Sounds like very poor planning from your friends

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by DrJack54

[sebhoff]

Well, it's not me. It involves several people I am in contact with - partly directly, partly indirectly. 

"Voluntary social year" suggests that they want to stay for a year. However, on this programme it is not possible to remain on a tourist visa for the whole time; this is not compatible with the rules of the funding agency.

[DrJack54]

17 minutes ago, sebhoff said:

Well, it's not me. It involves several people I am in contact with - partly directly, partly indirectly. 

"Voluntary social year" suggests that they want to stay for a year. However, on this programme it is not possible to remain on a tourist visa for the whole time; this is not compatible with the rules of the funding agency.

Seems the group did zero planning prior to entering Thailand.

So now in awkward situation.

 

They can obtain 2 visa exempt per calendar year via land and each entry provides 30 day stamp and can be extended by 30 days at Thai immigration. 

[sebhoff]

Sigh - you seem to jump to conclusions quite quickly... No - they of course did not do zero planning. The group have had months of preparation by the organisation that sends them abroad. But everyone was surprised by the new rules - which of course did not apply when the last batch of volunteers was sent over. If you find out about new rules a few weeks before you leave and if you then also realise that not everyone in Thailand is aware of these new rules, either, this is a difficult situation that is beyond your control. 

As I previously said, solving this situation via a repeated visa-exempt status is not an option. Of course, this may also not be compatible with doing volunteer work anyway (but you haven't commented on that part of my question, even though it is about the ED-visa)...

[DrJack54]

19 minutes ago, sebhoff said:

but you haven't commented on that part of my question, even though it is about the ED-visa)...

Some schools can organize an ED visa however not cheap.

Questionable volunteer visa came into play during covid.

Turned out to be very sus.

 

Since then it's not a good option.

So no suggest the group did not stay across issues with non O volunteering 

[sebhoff]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

So no suggest the group did not stay across issues with non O volunteering 

Sorry - I don't understand this sentence...

 

My question was not about whether schools can organise ED visa - I know that. I'd like to have a better idea about whether doing volunteer work on an ED visa is a potentially serious problem or not. I found a Thai document from 2019 that suggests that different governmental institutions have different ideas about this. But I don't know whether the issue has been resolved/clarified - the Google translation text is pretty ghastly...

[BusyB]

11 minutes ago, sebhoff said:

Sorry - I don't understand this sentence...

 

My question was not about whether schools can organise ED visa - I know that. I'd like to have a better idea about whether doing volunteer work on an ED visa is a potentially serious problem or not. I found a Thai document from 2019 that suggests that different governmental institutions have different ideas about this. But I don't know whether the issue has been resolved/clarified - the Google translation text is pretty ghastly...

 

Whatever the other ins and outs of this whole scenario are I am fairly certain that anyone working on an ED visa, even as an unpaid volunteer, is exposing themself to serious grief which may or may not materialize. Not advisable IMHO. Especially if the group has already been rejected by immigration.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by BusyB

[Caldera]

30 minutes ago, sebhoff said:

I'd like to have a better idea about whether doing volunteer work on an ED visa is a potentially serious problem or not.

 

An education visa/extension doesn't allow any kind of work, including volunteer work.

 

The way you describe this mess, the German government will have to liaise with their counterparts in the Thai government to fix it. Realistically, that will take years (if it happens at all), so I'd say chances are slim that those who currently can't get visas or extensions can pursue their dream to volunteer in Thailand. Well at least not legally. 

[sebhoff]

Yep - that is my current interpretation of the situation, too... <sigh>

[OJAS]

5 hours ago, sebhoff said:

I know a number of Germans doing a voluntary social year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_social_year) who are currently in Thailand as part of the official "weltwärts" programme that is funded by the German government - which is about as legit a programme as it can get. So we are not talking about abusing the system...

 

It does appear to me unfortunate (to say the least) that those clueless dimwits in the German government who are responsible for overseeing the "weltwärts" programme appear to have had absolutely zero regard to the implications of immigration procedures in both Thailand and presumably other countries where this programme operates as well, insofar as these directly affect participating volunteers. A fundamental oversight, I think!

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by OJAS

[BritTim]

Since this is an issue affecting quite a number of people, I would try to get someone senior from the German embassy involved, preferably the ambassador. An official letter asking for the visa/extension to be provided carries a lot of weight.

[sebhoff]

5 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

It does appear to me unfortunate (to say the least) that those clueless dimwits in the German government who are responsible for overseeing the "weltwärts" programme appear to have had absolutely zero regard to the implications of immigration procedures in both Thailand and presumably other countries where this programme operates as well, insofar as these directly affect participating volunteers. A fundamental oversight, I think!

 

 

Well - I wouldn't want to go that far, really... I've been told that this kind of visa surprise is not entirely uncommon - and I'm not sure "weltwärts" can really be blamed for not doing their homework. The Thai authorities apparently changed the rules at relatively short notice. The volunteers were provided with full support from their German "sending organisations" and there was no advance warning that they wouldn't fulfil all requirements for obtaining their visas. Two of the three consulates in Germany (Frankfurt and Berlin) did not list the new requirement on their website (Munich did - but this is not where the volunteers that I'm in direct contact with needed to apply).

 

I also fully understand that Thai authorities want to fight abuse of the non-immigrant "O" (voluntary) visa. However, it would have been nice if they didn't make it almost impossible for genuine volunteers to do what they are hoping to do...

 

I've just heard from two of the volunteers that returned from Malaysia that they almost didn't make it into the country. The immigration officer at the airport asked one of them a range of questions and it was pretty obvious that she did not believe them that they were entering the country for the purposes of tourism. It so happens that she lives near the NGO in question, knows the address the volunteers had given - and of course it *does* look suspicious... She apparently entered some comments into her computer - I suspect that there will be a follow-up from local authorities. I have now advised the two volunteers to stay away from the NGO (they are staying in a house nearby) and not to do anything that can be interpreted as "doing work" until the situation has been resolved (if it ever is). <sigh>

 

[sebhoff]

4 hours ago, BritTim said:

Since this is an issue affecting quite a number of people, I would try to get someone senior from the German embassy involved, preferably the ambassador. An official letter asking for the visa/extension to be provided carries a lot of weight.

Apparently, the German MFA is aware of the situation - but I don't know whether this can/will have an impact on solving the problems for the current group of volunteers. I don't know how widespread the problem really is - "weltwärts" works with (I presume) dozens of sending organisations, and there are only six volunteers currently in Thailand from the sending organisation of my direct contacts. I do know, however, that volunteers of at least two other sending organisations experience similar problems, and I certainly suspect many more volunteers will in fact be affected. 

 

I'll talk again to the sending organisation in question tomorrow. Their support (at least of the person in charge of Thailand) has been less than stellar, but I'll certainly raise the issue of involving the embassy/ambassador.

[jerrymahoney]

The problem seems not with the "sending organizations" but with the Thai "receiving organizations". I know from personal Thai NGO experience albeit years back that such visa arrangements require the Thai NGO to provide detailed financial information.

[bigt3116]

11 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Thailand offers a METV that can provide up to 9 months stay albeit requires exits from Thailand.

 

Appalling advice as the people want to do volunteer work and that is not allowed on a tourist visa

 

10 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

They can obtain 2 visa exempt per calendar year via land and each entry provides 30 day stamp and can be extended by 30 days at Thai immigration.

 

More appalling advice for the same reason as above.

 

10 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

Some schools can organize an ED visa however not cheap

 

The final piece of appalling advice from you.

 

Did you even read the OP's post? You added nothing but incorrect advice and what would lead to them working illegally - well done! (not)

[DrJack54]

4 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Appalling advice as the people want to do volunteer work and that is not allowed on a tourist visa

 

 

More appalling advice for the same reason as above.

 

 

The final piece of appalling advice from you.

 

Did you even read the OP's post? You added nothing but incorrect advice and what would lead to them working illegally - well done! (not)

They seemed prepared to explore ED visa which to me indicates prepared to look at options.

Right now between rock and hard place.

The border bounces would give them up to 4 months to consider next steps.

 

I have you on ignore for good reasons. 

Serial pest 

[bigt3116]

5 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I have you on ignore for good reasons. 

Serial pest

 

I however do not have you on "ignore", as you so often need correcting :-)

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

I however do not have you on "ignore", as you so often need correcting :-)

Just read through the thread.

You have not posted ONE piece of advice.

So be constructive and make a suggestion for this group of folk.

Apparently 2 recently reentered (guessing visa exempt) 

So go for it post a suggestion to assist.

Doubt that will occur. 

[mokwit]

Weltwärts

https://www.weltwaerts.de › ...

weltwärts stands for development engagement, global learning and equitable encounters. Learn more. weltwärts – one step further. Experiencing and understanding .

 

This seems to be for the benefit of young Germans. Thailand's idea of "voluntary" is them getting something tangible for free, not hosting gap years.

 

I suspect the real issue is not a documentary/recognition technicality but an underlying current of stopping young foreign people with no real skills/IP hanging out in Thailand for a year with no real benefit to Thailand.

 

This doesn't help with your issue but it might give an indication of your eventual chance of Ministerial approval/success for some projects against a backdrop of the increased scrutiny and refusal of NGO's under the Government of the last 9 years.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by mokwit

[bigt3116]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

So go for it post a suggestion to assist.

 

My initial post did assist the OP, insofar as warning them that your "advice" would lead to illegal working.

 

:-)

[Preacher]

They need a non-O visa for volunteering. An Ed-visa or a tourist "visa" will not do as volunteering requires a work permit and that is not given on those visas. 

 

1 year extensions of stay are only given if there is a goevrnment official involved with a high enough status. If the NOGO idoes not work with the government that will be problematic. In that case they need to get a multiple non-O visa and leave the country every 90 days.

[Dan O]

12 hours ago, sebhoff said:

Sigh - you seem to jump to conclusions quite quickly... No - they of course did not do zero planning. The group have had months of preparation by the organisation that sends them abroad. But everyone was surprised by the new rules - which of course did not apply when the last batch of volunteers was sent over. If you find out about new rules a few weeks before you leave and if you then also realise that not everyone in Thailand is aware of these new rules, either, this is a difficult situation that is beyond your control. 

As I previously said, solving this situation via a repeated visa-exempt status is not an option. Of course, this may also not be compatible with doing volunteer work anyway (but you haven't commented on that part of my question, even though it is about the ED-visa)...

You have the real answer to the volunteer visa issue in your OP. The organization isn't recognized by the Thai govt and has nothing to do with a rule change.  Find a recognized legit NGO or go for a different visa type.

[Enoon]

 

 

4 hours ago, Dan O said:

You have the real answer to the volunteer visa issue in your OP. The organization isn't recognized by the Thai govt and has nothing to do with a rule change.  Find a recognized legit NGO or go for a different visa type.

 

"nothing to do with a rule change."

 

It sounds like the threatened new laws concerning NGOs in Thailand have been passed.

 

It has been in the wind for a couple of years:

 

2021:  https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/04/thailand-ngo-law-severe-blow-human-rights/

 

2022: https://www.civicus.org/index.php/media-resources/media-releases/open-letters/5786-thailand-s-abusive-draft-law-on-not-for-profit-organizations

 

2023: https://www.icnl.org/resources/civic-freedom-monitor/thailand

"Previous versions of a restrictive draft Act on the Operation of Not-for-profit Organizations (“NPO bill”) proposed by the Office of the Council of State (OCS) and approved by the Thai Cabinet (and analyzed by ICNL here and here) were tabled in advance of the elections."

 

The organisation had no previous problems but now does......as of very recently this year.

 

That sounds very much as if the draft law has been passed into legislation, and, contrary to your assertion, the rules have changed.

 

Given that the organisation had no problems, up until very recently, it seems that its present problem is EVERYTHING to do with rule changes.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Enoon

[Dan O]

9 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

 

 

"nothing to do with a rule change."

 

It sounds like the threatened new laws concerning NGOs in Thailand have been passed.

 

It has been in the wind for a couple of years:

 

2021:  https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/04/thailand-ngo-law-severe-blow-human-rights/

 

2022: https://www.civicus.org/index.php/media-resources/media-releases/open-letters/5786-thailand-s-abusive-draft-law-on-not-for-profit-organizations

 

2023: https://www.icnl.org/resources/civic-freedom-monitor/thailand

"Previous versions of a restrictive draft Act on the Operation of Not-for-profit Organizations (“NPO bill”) proposed by the Office of the Council of State (OCS) and approved by the Thai Cabinet (and analyzed by ICNL here and here) were tabled in advance of the elections."

 

The organisation had no previous problems but now does......as of very recently this year.

 

That sounds very much as if the draft law has been passed into legislation, and, contrary to your assertion, the rules have changed.

 

Given that the organisation had no problems, up until very recently, it seems that its present problem is EVERYTHING to do with rule changes.

 

 

 

Not actually. if the NGO is currently not in compliance or were found not to be a true NGO, then that's the issue which it sounds as if it is. It may be a rule change (doubt it) but even if it is then the NGO isnt compliant and it doesnt matter what past rules were in place, you play the game with rules currently in force. My assertion is your speculating and claiming foul play without any facts other than the NGO is having issues. Contact the NGO and ask them why they are no longer accepted as an NGO for volunteer visa status in Thailand. 

[sebhoff]

5 hours ago, mokwit said:

 

This seems to be for the benefit of young Germans. Thailand's idea of "voluntary" is them getting something tangible for free, not hosting gap years.

 

I suspect the real issue is not a documentary/recognition technicality but an underlying current of stopping young foreign people with no real skills/IP hanging out in Thailand for a year with no real benefit to Thailand.

 

This doesn't help with your issue but it might give an indication of your eventual chance of Ministerial approval/success for some projects against a backdrop of the increased scrutiny and refusal of NGO's under the Government of the last 9 years.

 

Yes - true. Thanks for pointing this out! Hadn't thought about it from that perspective...

The NGOs do profit from it, though - but yes, they are clearly no specialists who are willing to provide their skills for free.

[sebhoff]

4 hours ago, Dan O said:

You have the real answer to the volunteer visa issue in your OP. The organization isn't recognized by the Thai govt and has nothing to do with a rule change.  Find a recognized legit NGO or go for a different visa type.

Yes - this might be part of the issue.

Weltwärts work with many different NGOs - and their status seems to vary. Some are actual schools that work under the supervision of the Ministry of Education while others are "foundations"/charities whose recognition depends on the Ministry of Social Welfare (or whatever the exact name is). 

The NGO of the volunteers who have just re-entered the country *is* recognised by the Thai government - but they have branches in different provinces, and it seems that the individual branches each do not have this status (or the necessary documentation). At least that's how I understand things at the moment...

[sebhoff]

14 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Not actually. if the NGO is currently not in compliance or were found not to be a true NGO, then that's the issue which it sounds as if it is. It may be a rule change (doubt it) but even if it is then the NGO isnt compliant and it doesnt matter what past rules were in place, you play the game with rules currently in force. My assertion is your speculating and claiming foul play without any facts other than the NGO is having issues. Contact the NGO and ask them why they are no longer accepted as an NGO for volunteer visa status in Thailand. 

I think it's a mixture of various reasons. There is *definitely* a rule change - staff at the consulate in Frankfurt confirmed this to me. This seems to lead to issues for volunteers at NGOs where it had previously been no problem to get a non-immigrant "O" visa.

The local branch of the NGO where they two volunteers currently are that I am in direct contact with had not previously worked with "weltwärts". Due to the fact that it is only their "head office" in Bangkok that appears to have the (previously) required status, It may well be the case that volunteers would have run into problems even in previous years. And that's something that the "weltwärts"-people/the German sending organisation could perhaps have been aware of.

This thread does certainly help me sort out this mess - at least in my mind... 

[mokwit]

2 hours ago, sebhoff said:

Yes - true. Thanks for pointing this out! Hadn't thought about it from that perspective...

The NGOs do profit from it, though - but yes, they are clearly no specialists who are willing to provide their skills for free.

Thailand issues visas solely for the benefit of Thailand.

 

Example work visa/WP. Issued for the benefit of Thailand/Thai company for skills that cannot be sourced in the local market - "foreign expert". There are no work visas so that people can polish their resume with some Asian experience.

 

Now, apply that template to volunteer visa with young unskilled people. This is how I think the Thai authorities see it against a backdrop of a clampdown on NGO's some of which they see as just holiday vehicles for foreigners and some they don't really want here because they are sticking their noses in and commenting when it is not wanted (and in some cases are legitimately entitled to reject IMO. NGO's have no right to try and coerce Thailand in accordance with the views of the NGO. Why should Thailand accept NGO's who are at odds with Thailand).

 

https://www.civicus.org/index.php/media-resources/media-releases/open-letters/5786-thailand-s-abusive-draft-law-on-not-for-profit-organizations

 

The NGO's themselves make it clear why Thailand has the right to reject them. Thailand is a Sovereign state and the Governance of Thailand is a matter for Thais.

Edited November 9, 2023 by mokwit

[BritTim]

11 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Appalling advice as the people want to do volunteer work and that is not allowed on a tourist visa

 

 

More appalling advice for the same reason as above.

 

 

The final piece of appalling advice from you.

 

Did you even read the OP's post? You added nothing but incorrect advice and what would lead to them working illegally - well done! (not)

 

Actually, following rules changes a couple of years ago, this is not cut and dried. A lot of volunteer work, these days, is allowed without a volunteer visa or similar. What is and is not allowed is not 100% clear, but most volunteer work that does not involve financial gain is permitted. The OP mentions that they receive expenses. That is enough that I would want an official ruling from the Labour Department on whether the volunteer work envisaged is permissible as a tourist.