Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

You're not wrong there. 

Your both wrong. 

[MangoKorat]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:26 AM, Jingthing said:

By telling a massive Jew hating lie?

You're not fooling anyone. 

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

So...... I have told you many times , I am not a jew hater (or a gay hater as you childishly state in another thread).  It is common knowledge that the Jewish vote is very influencial in the USA.  Quite how anyone even someone with low intellect, can construe that as hating jews is beyond me.  I've tried not to use big words because you clearly have difficulty with anything other than the most basic language - 'big fat lie' are you a juvenile?

 

If you don't know the importance of jewish votes - I suggest you read the link I posted from an academic that has studied the subject for many years.  Without looking back, I believe the writer, Gil Troy is a professor and has studied in Haifa - that's a city in Israel, just thought I'd let you know.

 

I'll debate with anyone - anyone that is, who, when presented with the truth, accepts it and doesn't try to claim that black's white.

 

What Israel is doing in Gaza at the moment is disgraceful.  There is no justification for what they are doing - they can't state that they are trying to minimize collateral damage and then use 1000lb bombs.  Bombs of that size do not take out specific targets, they flatten whole blocks (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about on that subject).  Children are dying every day for what?  Because a terrorist organisation commited attrocities on 7th October?  Palestinian civillians did not commit that crime - Hamas did.

 

What you will see in the coming years though, is that many of those Palestinian children will become terrorists and attack Israel.  What would your feelings towards Israel be if as a 6 year old boy, you'd seen your entire family wiped out in front of you.  How would you feel if, along with that you were subjected to 24/7 bombing?  No water, no sanitation, no food, no electricity.

 

Netanyahu has come very close on several occasions to stating that he wishes to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. It is my belief, that if he had a free rein and wasn't concerned about losing US support, that is exactly what he would do.  How many times has Israel told the Palestinians to move to one area, then bombed that area? Just to be clear to you and your buddy.......it is my opinion that what Israel is doing now, is nothing short of Genocide.  People are not allowed to leave Gaza and they are being bombed - its like a bloody Turkey shoot, only it not a game, its real people that are being killed.

 

Tell me this, why won't Israel allow independent observers in to Gaza?  If the are behaving lawfully, what have they to fear? Its not even their damned land to deny people access to!!

 

On the subject of the 3 Israelis that you say were shot by 'mistake' - just examine the reports will you.  In no way was that a mistake.  The rules of engagement, something I expect you know sod all about are very clear on how soldiers should behave in civillian areas.  Can Israeli eyes not see a white flag? I repeat, the only reason we know about what happened is because they were Israelis.  The very same thing will, I have no doubt, have happened hundreds of times but the victims will have been Palestinians - so that's alright then eh?

 

Post away now, you're on ignore. I neither wish to nor do I have time to, debate with a blinkered lunatic that continually calls me a hater of one sort or another and ignores the facts. I prefer talking to adults.

 

 

[MangoKorat]

6 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

This desperate mother of a 19-year-old female hostage is screaming inside, and the whole world should be screaming in pain with her. Time is running out in the Hamas Terror Dungeons. #BringThemHomeNow.

 

Were Palestinian civillians responsible for kidnapping Israelis?  Are you trying to use those images as an excuse for Israel's indiscriminate murdering of Palestinian women and children? Shame on you.

[rabas]

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Why are they being allowed to bomb hospitals?

No one is safe, don't believe the Israeli lies. 

 

Worse, why hasn't Hamas been arrested for the horrific carnage they wreaked upon innocent Israelis?  Had that happened, Hamas would  not be using Hospitals as shields, and lots of people would still be alive. 

 

I don't need to believe anyone to understand logic.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, MangoKorat said:

Were Palestinian civillians responsible for kidnapping Israelis?  

Yes, not all of the hostages but probably at the very least two of them the evidence shows so far.

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Are you trying to use those images as an excuse for Israel's indiscriminate murdering of Palestinian women and children? Shame on you.

Your next sentence is total B.S.

[MangoKorat]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes, not all of the hostages but probably at the very least two of them the evidence shows so far.

Your next sentence is total B.S.

Pot, Kettle, Black. Adios.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Pot, Kettle, Black. Adios.

More B.S. The image you were referring to is regarding the link I posted. Its about her!

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

So...... I have told you many times , I am not a jew hater (or a gay hater as you childishly state in another thread).  It is common knowledge that the Jewish vote is very influencial in the USA.  Quite how anyone even someone with low intellect, can construe that as hating jews is beyond me.  I've tried not to use big words because you clearly have difficulty with anything other than the most basic language - 'big fat lie' are you a juvenile?

 

If you don't know the importance of jewish votes - I suggest you read the link I posted from an academic that has studied the subject for many years.  Without looking back, I believe the writer, Gil Troy is a professor and has studied in Haifa - that's a city in Israel, just thought I'd let you know.

 

I'll debate with anyone - anyone that is, who, when presented with the truth, accepts it and doesn't try to claim that black's white.

 

What Israel is doing in Gaza at the moment is disgraceful.  There is no justification for what they are doing - they can't state that they are trying to minimize collateral damage and then use 1000lb bombs.  Bombs of that size do not take out specific targets, they flatten whole blocks (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about on that subject).  Children are dying every day for what?  Because a terrorist organisation commited attrocities on 7th October?  Palestinian civillians did not commit that crime - Hamas did.

 

What you will see in the coming years though, is that many of those Palestinian children will become terrorists and attack Israel.  What would your feelings towards Israel be if as a 6 year old boy, you'd seen your entire family wiped out in front of you.  How would you feel if, along with that you were subjected to 24/7 bombing?  No water, no sanitation, no food, no electricity.

 

Netanyahu has come very close on several occasions to stating that he wishes to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. It is my belief, that if he had a free rein and wasn't concerned about losing US support, that is exactly what he would do.  How many times has Israel told the Palestinians to move to one area, then bombed that area? Just to be clear to you and your buddy.......it is my opinion that what Israel is doing now, is nothing short of Genocide.  People are not allowed to leave Gaza and they are being bombed - its like a bloody Turkey shoot, only it not a game, its real people that are being killed.

 

Tell me this, why won't Israel allow independent observers in to Gaza?  If the are behaving lawfully, what have they to fear? Its not even their damned land to deny people access to!!

 

On the subject of the 3 Israelis that you say were shot by 'mistake' - just examine the reports will you.  In no way was that a mistake.  The rules of engagement, something I expect you know sod all about are very clear on how soldiers should behave in civillian areas.  Can Israeli eyes not see a white flag? I repeat, the only reason we know about what happened is because they were Israelis.  The very same thing will, I have no doubt, have happened hundreds of times but the victims will have been Palestinians - so that's alright then eh?

 

Post away now, you're on ignore. I neither wish to nor do I have time to, debate with a blinkered lunatic that continually calls me a hater of one sort or another and ignores the facts. I prefer talking to adults.

 

 

 

Palestinian civilians, Gazans, did participate in the 7/10 attack and the related atrocities. Some of the kidnapped Israelis were apparently taken by such.

 

As for 'no justification' - that's your opinion. I'd say that butchering over a thousand Israelis, kidnapping a couple of hundred, make for a good justification.

 

Whining about the bombs is nonsense. Compare figures of bombs/munitions dropped vs. casualties. Almost on par, last time I checked. One bomb per casualty. If you know anything about that, then you must know that if Israel wanted to simply flatten the Gaza Strip and kill everyone - it would be long over by now.

 

You haven no idea what the coming years will bring.

 

Netanyahu did not actually say what you claim, as far as I recall. Ministers and politicians, yes. What you believe, considering your obvious bias is neither interesting nor material.

 

If it's a 'genocide' it's a very lame one. And, oh - people could leave, if Egypt opened the border.

 

Your ROE comment is off mark. The incident happened in Northern Gaza, and the area was designated a battle zone. Apparently not all units were alerted to the the signs being spotted a day earlier, and the soldier that shot the last guy did so against express orders, on the scene.

 

Got to love posters who 'have no time' then go on making lengthy tirades, one after another.

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Were Palestinian civillians responsible for kidnapping Israelis?  Are you trying to use those images as an excuse for Israel's indiscriminate murdering of Palestinian women and children? Shame on you.

 

Yes, there were mobs of civilians crossing from the Gaza Strip on 7/10, coming on the heels of Hamas.

Some of the kidnapped were taken by them, some of the atrocities were carried out by them.

 

Hamas initially tried to make them solely responsible for all the gruesome parts, even.

[Bkk Brian]

16 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

So...... I have told you many times , I am not a jew hater (or a gay hater as you childishly state in another thread).  It is common knowledge that the Jewish vote is very influencial in the USA.  Quite how anyone even someone with low intellect, can construe that as hating jews is beyond me.  I've tried not to use big words because you clearly have difficulty with anything other than the most basic language - 'big fat lie' are you a juvenile?

 

If you don't know the importance of jewish votes - I suggest you read the link I posted from an academic that has studied the subject for many years.  Without looking back, I believe the writer, Gil Troy is a professor and has studied in Haifa - that's a city in Israel, just thought I'd let you know.

 

I'll debate with anyone - anyone that is, who, when presented with the truth, accepts it and doesn't try to claim that black's white.

 

What Israel is doing in Gaza at the moment is disgraceful.  There is no justification for what they are doing - they can't state that they are trying to minimize collateral damage and then use 1000lb bombs.  Bombs of that size do not take out specific targets, they flatten whole blocks (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about on that subject).  Children are dying every day for what?  Because a terrorist organisation commited attrocities on 7th October?  Palestinian civillians did not commit that crime - Hamas did.

 

What you will see in the coming years though, is that many of those Palestinian children will become terrorists and attack Israel.  What would your feelings towards Israel be if as a 6 year old boy, you'd seen your entire family wiped out in front of you.  How would you feel if, along with that you were subjected to 24/7 bombing?  No water, no sanitation, no food, no electricity.

 

Netanyahu has come very close on several occasions to stating that he wishes to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. It is my belief, that if he had a free rein and wasn't concerned about losing US support, that is exactly what he would do.  How many times has Israel told the Palestinians to move to one area, then bombed that area? Just to be clear to you and your buddy.......it is my opinion that what Israel is doing now, is nothing short of Genocide.  People are not allowed to leave Gaza and they are being bombed - its like a bloody Turkey shoot, only it not a game, its real people that are being killed.

 

Tell me this, why won't Israel allow independent observers in to Gaza?  If the are behaving lawfully, what have they to fear? Its not even their damned land to deny people access to!!

 

On the subject of the 3 Israelis that you say were shot by 'mistake' - just examine the reports will you.  In no way was that a mistake.  The rules of engagement, something I expect you know sod all about are very clear on how soldiers should behave in civillian areas.  Can Israeli eyes not see a white flag? I repeat, the only reason we know about what happened is because they were Israelis.  The very same thing will, I have no doubt, have happened hundreds of times but the victims will have been Palestinians - so that's alright then eh?

 

Post away now, you're on ignore. I neither wish to nor do I have time to, debate with a blinkered lunatic that continually calls me a hater of one sort or another and ignores the facts. I prefer talking to adults.

 

 

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

Yes there's another couple of posters here like you, shoot off inflammatory insults, spread false information then take the cowards way out and ignore any posters who will challenge them

[Jingthing]

50 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

So...... I have told you many times , I am not a jew hater (or a gay hater as you childishly state in another thread).  It is common knowledge that the Jewish vote is very influencial in the USA.  Quite how anyone even someone with low intellect, can construe that as hating jews is beyond me.  I've tried not to use big words because you clearly have difficulty with anything other than the most basic language - 'big fat lie' are you a juvenile?

 

If you don't know the importance of jewish votes - I suggest you read the link I posted from an academic that has studied the subject for many years.  Without looking back, I believe the writer, Gil Troy is a professor and has studied in Haifa - that's a city in Israel, just thought I'd let you know.

 

I'll debate with anyone - anyone that is, who, when presented with the truth, accepts it and doesn't try to claim that black's white.

 

What Israel is doing in Gaza at the moment is disgraceful.  There is no justification for what they are doing - they can't state that they are trying to minimize collateral damage and then use 1000lb bombs.  Bombs of that size do not take out specific targets, they flatten whole blocks (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about on that subject).  Children are dying every day for what?  Because a terrorist organisation commited attrocities on 7th October?  Palestinian civillians did not commit that crime - Hamas did.

 

What you will see in the coming years though, is that many of those Palestinian children will become terrorists and attack Israel.  What would your feelings towards Israel be if as a 6 year old boy, you'd seen your entire family wiped out in front of you.  How would you feel if, along with that you were subjected to 24/7 bombing?  No water, no sanitation, no food, no electricity.

 

Netanyahu has come very close on several occasions to stating that he wishes to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. It is my belief, that if he had a free rein and wasn't concerned about losing US support, that is exactly what he would do.  How many times has Israel told the Palestinians to move to one area, then bombed that area? Just to be clear to you and your buddy.......it is my opinion that what Israel is doing now, is nothing short of Genocide.  People are not allowed to leave Gaza and they are being bombed - its like a bloody Turkey shoot, only it not a game, its real people that are being killed.

 

Tell me this, why won't Israel allow independent observers in to Gaza?  If the are behaving lawfully, what have they to fear? Its not even their damned land to deny people access to!!

 

On the subject of the 3 Israelis that you say were shot by 'mistake' - just examine the reports will you.  In no way was that a mistake.  The rules of engagement, something I expect you know sod all about are very clear on how soldiers should behave in civillian areas.  Can Israeli eyes not see a white flag? I repeat, the only reason we know about what happened is because they were Israelis.  The very same thing will, I have no doubt, have happened hundreds of times but the victims will have been Palestinians - so that's alright then eh?

 

Post away now, you're on ignore. I neither wish to nor do I have time to, debate with a blinkered lunatic that continually calls me a hater of one sort or another and ignores the facts. I prefer talking to adults.

Bait and switch straw man extravaganza.

So sleazy!

I was responding to your Jew hating global Jewish control conspiracy theory big lie that half the US congress are Jews 

You were busted so naturally you squawk like a headless chicken.

Thanks for the ignore.

[coolcarer]

1 hour ago, MangoKorat said:

I rarely name call but you.....well you're clearly mentally challenged.  I will tell you one last time, then you're on ignore so post away, I won't see your posts.

 

So...... I have told you many times , I am not a jew hater (or a gay hater as you childishly state in another thread).  It is common knowledge that the Jewish vote is very influencial in the USA.  Quite how anyone even someone with low intellect, can construe that as hating jews is beyond me.  I've tried not to use big words because you clearly have difficulty with anything other than the most basic language - 'big fat lie' are you a juvenile?

 

If you don't know the importance of jewish votes - I suggest you read the link I posted from an academic that has studied the subject for many years.  Without looking back, I believe the writer, Gil Troy is a professor and has studied in Haifa - that's a city in Israel, just thought I'd let you know.

 

I'll debate with anyone - anyone that is, who, when presented with the truth, accepts it and doesn't try to claim that black's white.

 

What Israel is doing in Gaza at the moment is disgraceful.  There is no justification for what they are doing - they can't state that they are trying to minimize collateral damage and then use 1000lb bombs.  Bombs of that size do not take out specific targets, they flatten whole blocks (and yes, I do know what I'm talking about on that subject).  Children are dying every day for what?  Because a terrorist organisation commited attrocities on 7th October?  Palestinian civillians did not commit that crime - Hamas did.

 

What you will see in the coming years though, is that many of those Palestinian children will become terrorists and attack Israel.  What would your feelings towards Israel be if as a 6 year old boy, you'd seen your entire family wiped out in front of you.  How would you feel if, along with that you were subjected to 24/7 bombing?  No water, no sanitation, no food, no electricity.

 

Netanyahu has come very close on several occasions to stating that he wishes to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. It is my belief, that if he had a free rein and wasn't concerned about losing US support, that is exactly what he would do.  How many times has Israel told the Palestinians to move to one area, then bombed that area? Just to be clear to you and your buddy.......it is my opinion that what Israel is doing now, is nothing short of Genocide.  People are not allowed to leave Gaza and they are being bombed - its like a bloody Turkey shoot, only it not a game, its real people that are being killed.

 

Tell me this, why won't Israel allow independent observers in to Gaza?  If the are behaving lawfully, what have they to fear? Its not even their damned land to deny people access to!!

 

On the subject of the 3 Israelis that you say were shot by 'mistake' - just examine the reports will you.  In no way was that a mistake.  The rules of engagement, something I expect you know sod all about are very clear on how soldiers should behave in civillian areas.  Can Israeli eyes not see a white flag? I repeat, the only reason we know about what happened is because they were Israelis.  The very same thing will, I have no doubt, have happened hundreds of times but the victims will have been Palestinians - so that's alright then eh?

 

Post away now, you're on ignore. I neither wish to nor do I have time to, debate with a blinkered lunatic that continually calls me a hater of one sort or another and ignores the facts. I prefer talking to adults.

 

 

One of the longest fact less rants I’ve read in a long time. You’ll get on well with Scotty and his rabbit

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Palestinian civilians, Gazans, did participate in the 7/10 attack and the related atrocities. Some of the kidnapped Israelis were apparently taken by such.

And you know that for a fact?  Hamas terrorists don't always wear uniforms.  Were any of the children who died today involved?

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

As for 'no justification' - that's your opinion. I'd say that butchering over a thousand Israelis, kidnapping a couple of hundred, make for a good justification.

To be justified, they would have to be killing the culprits.  So by your 'justification' the 13 year old Palestinian girl who was killed yesterday, the one who's leg was blown off a month ago and both her parents killed - that was justified was it? But what the hell?  They've killed a few thousand Hamas militants, its OK that around 18,000 civillians got in the way?

 

1 hour ago, Morch said:

If it's a 'genocide' it's a very lame one. And, oh - people could leave, if Egypt opened the border.

Why should Egypt open the border?  Why can't Israel let them out of the fence?

 

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Netanyahu did not actually say what you claim

What did I claim?  I said he has come close, several times.

 

2 hours ago, Morch said:

The incident happened in Northern Gaza, and the area was designated a battle zone.

There is no such thing.  If civillians are present, the rules of engagement apply.

 

2 hours ago, Morch said:

What you believe, considering your obvious bias is neither interesting nor material.

What bias is that?  I have stated several times that the killings on 7th October by Hamas were horrific.  My bias is for life and for justice.  I condemn all killing - either by state, terrorist or individual.

 

As for the conflict in general, prior to 7th October my thoughts were that both sides needed a massive banging of heads.  They both need to accept that they exist AND that they have a right to exist.  Palestinians stating that they will not rest until the last Israeli is driven from the land is just pure stupid and ditto for similar thinking on the part of some Israelis.  Pie in the sky maybe but without it, there will be no peace and no end to the killings on either side.

 

However, I have read much about what has been going on over the last few years and I've also seen the news reports, heard Israel dragged over the coals at the UN for land grabbing.  Are you aware of Israel's treatment of simple, ordinary Palestinians?  That so called 'settlers' have been killing Palestinians very recently?

 

Then there was Trump, he really stirred things up by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem.

 

In no way do I justify terrorist activity but I wonder what you or I would do in the face of an extremely well armed and powerful nation like Israel?  What would we do if for years we'd had our land stolen and been pushed around, shot at, needed special permission for this and for that etc. etc.  It not justification, but it is the reason. The 'occupied territory' is just that, occupied, occupied illegally by Israel since 1967 and they've been stealing more ever since but never moreso then under Netanyahu's watch.  That will never lead to peace. Again, what can the Palestinians do about that?  We may call them terrorists but neither of us has walked in their shoes.

2 hours ago, Morch said:

Whining about the bombs is nonsense. Compare figures of bombs/munitions dropped vs. casualties. Almost on par, last time I checked. One bomb per casualty. If you know anything about that, then you must know that if Israel wanted to simply flatten the Gaza Strip and kill everyone - it would be long over by now.

 Sorry but your totally wrong on that one and clearly out of your depth.  I have experience but rather than try pulling that one - just research military experts discussions of that - respected people with far more experience then me.  Easy to find on Google.

The recent escalation is a direct result of Netanyahu's ultra right wing policies.  Just as the Palestinians are on the wrong planet if they think they can get rid of Israel, the same applies to the Israeli's.  They have to find a solution, this has been going on for decades and all that happened is deaths.  There will be some changes shortly after this conflict ends - Netanyahu's days were numbered before 7th October.

 

If you get a moment, have a read of what the Israeli lawyer Daniel Seidemann has to say.  I heard him on the radio yesterday and he makes a lot of sense.  This link explains some of his thinking, I hope more like him can be found and peace can be brought to that troubled part of the world. Its s slim hope though.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/two-state-solution-would-mean-relocating-200000-settlers-says-israeli-lawyer-who-has-david-camerons-ear

 

Do you not think that Israel's recent actions in Gaza will have almost certainly created a new generation of terrorists?

 

I doubt you will give any serious consideration to any of the above but you should, if you believe in any kind of a balanced view.

 

Some homework:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

 

 

[asf6]

8 hours ago, rabas said:

 

Worse, why hasn't Hamas been arrested for the horrific carnage they wreaked upon innocent Israelis?  Had that happened, Hamas would  not be using Hospitals as shields, and lots of people would still be alive. 

 

 

A couple of weeks ago it was reported that hundreds of Palestinians had been arrested in Gaza. The Israeli military said some of them were wanted Hamas operatives. 

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-surrender-gaza.html

 

 

[asf6]

8 hours ago, Morch said:

If it's a 'genocide' it's a very lame one. And, oh - people could leave, if Egypt opened the border.

 

 

 It would appear neither the Egyptians nor the Palestinians trust the Israelis to let the Palestinians back in again after the conflict ends, which would be a catastrophe for them. Once bitten, twice shy. 

[asf6]

37 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Stephen Fry

 

I see he is embracing his Jewish identity. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/18/stephen-fry-anti-semitism-is-one-acceptable-form-of-racism/

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, asf6 said:

I see he is embracing his Jewish identity. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/18/stephen-fry-anti-semitism-is-one-acceptable-form-of-racism/

That is correct. 

 

"Progressives" in the west have thrown Jews (traditionally a key progressive demographic) under the bus. Jew hatred coming from the left is at all time high in the west. (Coming from the right is nothing new.)

 

I don't recall the source but I will paraphrase a quote I heard regarding October 7.

 

American leftist Jews went to bed as leftists and woke up as Jews.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Jingthing

[CharlieH]

Unattributed graphic reported and removed.

[Bkk Brian]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

It's sad we have to block so many fundamentalist nuts. 

True to form, nothing to add to the topic just troll with a personal insult and hide behind your little ignore button

11 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes there's another couple of posters here like you, shoot off inflammatory insults, spread false information then take the cowards way out and ignore any posters who will challenge them

 

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Indeed.

 

Stephen Fry

 

It is because people have known about the Apartheid in Israel for many years, people have seen previous atrocities in Palestine, 2014 for example. 

Especially at this time of year, people know who the original people were in that area - Paul, Simon, Philip, Mathew, Thomas, James; ethnic cleansing is nothing new 🙂

[scottiejohn]

11 hours ago, coolcarer said:

You’ll get on well with Scotty and his rabbit

What has a character in Star Trek and a rabbit got to do with this very serious subject?

[Bkk Brian]

Its strange it took so long to uncover this terrorist and the network he controlled at the hospital, he's had plenty of coverage in the media complaining about the IDF at his hospital before, al they had to do was look on his facebook page, he's the one in the check shirt having a meeting with other terrorists:

(facebook link is in the tweet)

 

https://twitter.com/TamarSternthal/status/1737451161886630182

 

 

[Morch]

11 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

And you know that for a fact?  Hamas terrorists don't always wear uniforms.  Were any of the children who died today involved?

 

To be justified, they would have to be killing the culprits.  So by your 'justification' the 13 year old Palestinian girl who was killed yesterday, the one who's leg was blown off a month ago and both her parents killed - that was justified was it? But what the hell?  They've killed a few thousand Hamas militants, its OK that around 18,000 civillians got in the way?

 

Why should Egypt open the border?  Why can't Israel let them out of the fence?

 

What did I claim?  I said he has come close, several times.

 

There is no such thing.  If civillians are present, the rules of engagement apply.

 

What bias is that?  I have stated several times that the killings on 7th October by Hamas were horrific.  My bias is for life and for justice.  I condemn all killing - either by state, terrorist or individual.

 

As for the conflict in general, prior to 7th October my thoughts were that both sides needed a massive banging of heads.  They both need to accept that they exist AND that they have a right to exist.  Palestinians stating that they will not rest until the last Israeli is driven from the land is just pure stupid and ditto for similar thinking on the part of some Israelis.  Pie in the sky maybe but without it, there will be no peace and no end to the killings on either side.

 

However, I have read much about what has been going on over the last few years and I've also seen the news reports, heard Israel dragged over the coals at the UN for land grabbing.  Are you aware of Israel's treatment of simple, ordinary Palestinians?  That so called 'settlers' have been killing Palestinians very recently?

 

Then there was Trump, he really stirred things up by moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem.

 

In no way do I justify terrorist activity but I wonder what you or I would do in the face of an extremely well armed and powerful nation like Israel?  What would we do if for years we'd had our land stolen and been pushed around, shot at, needed special permission for this and for that etc. etc.  It not justification, but it is the reason. The 'occupied territory' is just that, occupied, occupied illegally by Israel since 1967 and they've been stealing more ever since but never moreso then under Netanyahu's watch.  That will never lead to peace. Again, what can the Palestinians do about that?  We may call them terrorists but neither of us has walked in their shoes.

 Sorry but your totally wrong on that one and clearly out of your depth.  I have experience but rather than try pulling that one - just research military experts discussions of that - respected people with far more experience then me.  Easy to find on Google.

The recent escalation is a direct result of Netanyahu's ultra right wing policies.  Just as the Palestinians are on the wrong planet if they think they can get rid of Israel, the same applies to the Israeli's.  They have to find a solution, this has been going on for decades and all that happened is deaths.  There will be some changes shortly after this conflict ends - Netanyahu's days were numbered before 7th October.

 

If you get a moment, have a read of what the Israeli lawyer Daniel Seidemann has to say.  I heard him on the radio yesterday and he makes a lot of sense.  This link explains some of his thinking, I hope more like him can be found and peace can be brought to that troubled part of the world. Its s slim hope though.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/17/two-state-solution-would-mean-relocating-200000-settlers-says-israeli-lawyer-who-has-david-camerons-ear

 

Do you not think that Israel's recent actions in Gaza will have almost certainly created a new generation of terrorists?

 

I doubt you will give any serious consideration to any of the above but you should, if you believe in any kind of a balanced view.

 

Some homework:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

 

 

 

I will answer your responses and points in order, but without quoting each and every segment.

 

I know Gazan mobs were joining in the attack because I can watch reports, including ones from Gaza (at the time) with Gazan reporters covering it. Also, Hamas itself claimed as much, trying to pin most of the atrocities on them. To date, Hamas cannot account for all the hostages taken, and claims some were taken by such mobs. This would make sense considering just as the attack was winding down and a bit later, Hamas was promising rewards for hostages being delivered to its custody. One thing about this attack and the atrocities involved is that things were widely documented - mostly by the attacking forces, even. As for kids being involved - I would venture 'yes', given that Hamas 'definition' of kids is 'under 18'. There were definitely such on footage seen. Other than that - you're trolling.

 

The faux requirement you place on Israel's response to be justified is an imaginary one. There is no such requirement that only those directly involved will be punished. War is messy, civilians and innocents often get hurt. That is an acknowledgement reflected in many of the legalities referencing and regulating the conduct of war. Obviously, it would have been better it it was otherwise, but we live in an imperfect world.

 

Israel would hardly be expected to let in Gazans into its territory after 7/10. As you yourself point out, Hamas terrorists do not always wear uniforms. Considering that the relevant areas are also used/were used as staging ground for troops, this would make little military sense. On the humanitarian angle, unless you suggested placing them in communities that were just attacked, this is mostly arid, semi-desert areas - not too much by way of facilities, and no protection from Hamas rockets. 

 

As for Netanyahu's alleged words - you did not provide any reference, so hard to tell what you're on about. That aside, taking what he says seriously is a choice. The man will say pretty much anything that serves his immediate purposes.

 

With regard to battle zone designations - you give a very decisive response, which is not backed by anything much. Given that warnings to evacuate were issued for weeks, and that (as you pointed out) Hamas doesn't always wear uniforms, I think you're not on solid ground with that assertion.

 

What bias? The one that's glaringly obvious from your lengthy tirades. Making the cursory, obvious acknowledgement regarding Hamas doesn't cover help covering it much. The bulk of your fiery condemnation is directed at one side only. As for what you would have done in their shoes? I don't know for sure, I hope nothing like what took place on 7/10 - then again, I'll venture that you would have probably just contend yourself with posting yet another long tirade somewhere. Regarding Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, we are not in disagreement, especially when it comes to the West Bank. That said, does it justify the 7/10 attack? I doubt it. The Palestinians are world class masters in making bad choices: rejectionism, terrorism, and all the rest led them nowhere. Instead of cutting their losses and building from there, they largely persist chasing an unlikely dream. 

 

The bomb/casualty ratio thing - you continue to claim 'experience', but it's not clear what that 'experience' is, how does it apply and how does it actually negate what I posted. Same goes for alleging hyped 'military experts' - these are a dime a dozen when it comes to news analysis of this conflict, guess enough variety to suit all tastes and views.

 

The attack is not a 'recent escalation' in the sense you claim. It was long in the planning, there was a long phase of training. There was already much discussion as to the timing with some of the more prominent assertions being the developments on the KSR-Israel relations, posturing for the post-Abbas era, and leadership struggles within Hamas.

 

I don't know that there will actually be much diplomatic developments post-war, although that would be nice. Given past instances, the people involved and their positions - I'm rather pessimistic. Netanyahu may or may not be ousted (his days being numbered before 7/10 is something you claim, not sure why), I rather think he'll cling to power rather than go for a new elections - which might leave him 3 years as PM. On the Palestinian side as well, most of the old faces are set to remain. There are many posts on here, over the years, in which I covered the leadership crisis on both sides - and how it effects the stalemate.

 

Seidemann's comments are nothing new. There are a whole lot such plans, figures, and whatnot regarding how this could be achieved. That's not the issue. The problem is the lack of will, by both sides, to come to an agreement - with all that it entails.

 

A new generation of terrorists ? That would have happened anyway, given the ongoing conflict and Hamas educational programs. So no, that's not a very important point, IMO. It's not like they would have turned out to be peace activists or anything, regardless of the war.

 

Given my (unflattering) analysis and views of Amnesty's take on many posts, both on recent topics and past - you may look them up if you're interested.

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, asf6 said:

 

 It would appear neither the Egyptians nor the Palestinians trust the Israelis to let the Palestinians back in again after the conflict ends, which would be a catastrophe for them. Once bitten, twice shy. 

 

I understand their reservations, but that might indicate that the alleged 'genocide' is not all that threatening.

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

I know Gazan mobs were joining in the attack because I can watch reports, including ones from Gaza (at the time) with Gazan reporters covering it.

Which channel?

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

The faux requirement you place on Israel's response to be justified is an imaginary one. There is no such requirement that only those directly involved will be punished. War is messy, civilians and innocents often get hurt. That is an acknowledgement reflected in many of the legalities referencing and regulating the conduct of war. Obviously, it would have been better it it was otherwise, but we live in an imperfect world.

This is not war, how many Israels have died since Oct 7 compared to Gazans/Palestinians?

 

Over 19,000 Palestiniand killed since Oct 7

About 200 Israelis killed since Oct 7, where 1100 were killed. It is a masacre/ethnic cleansing/Genocide

 

Here's a chart showing the number of deaths 15 years before the current slaughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel–Hamas_war

 

Something not quite equal here?

 

Repeatedly, there’s an episode of what Israel call mowing the lawn, smash them up, they’re defenseless of course, then there’s an agreement reached that Hamas accepts and lives up to. Israel violates it constantly and finally an Israeli escalation of the violation leads to some Hamas response which Israel uses as a pretext for the next episode of mowing  the lawn. That’s been the history since 2005, and started in October this year.

 

 

 

[Morch]

There is no requirement that war casualties would be 'equal'.

[ozimoron]

6 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That is correct. 

 

"Progressives" in the west have thrown Jews (traditionally a key progressive demographic) under the bus. Jew hatred coming from the left is at all time high in the west. (Coming from the right is nothing new.)

 

I don't recall the source but I will paraphrase a quote I heard regarding October 7.

 

American leftist Jews went to bed as leftists and woke up as Jews.

 

Antisemitism from the right is way more evident that from the left. Most American Jews vote Dem anyway.

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no requirement that war casualties would be 'equal'.

 

They mostly aren't war casualties. They are slaughtered civilians.

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

There is no requirement that war casualties would be 'equal'.

So, you admit it's a massacre?