Israel is at War - General discussion (pt2)

CharlieH · December 22, 2023

Posts in contravention of community and Topic guidelines have been removed and ALL the conversation/exchanges that followed.

PLEASE adhere to the guidance and rules or everything after the issue gets wiped out. Its frustrating for members and a PIA for Moderators to clean up.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

6 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

The evidence shows Iran’s lead role in October 7

While the US and Europe have remained steadfast in support of Israel since October 7, they have failed to hold the source of terror accountable: the regime in Iran. It is inconceivable that Iran-backed Hamas could conduct a terror attack on such a scale without not just the greenlight of Tehran, but its strategic planning.

Of course, the sympathisers and the sceptics will immediately cry, “There’s no evidence” –conveniently pointing to the Biden administration’s insistence on this. Yet there is undeniable intelligence exposing Tehran’s fingerprints. Whether one acts on intelligence or evidence is a political decision and ultimately goes back to the appetite to act against the Iranian regime – something Washington currently doesn’t want to stomach.

https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/the-evidence-shows-irans-lead-role-in-october-7-pgzng3q0

Funny. I haven't found anything from the Israelis or the U.S. that corroborates this person's claim.

No evidence yet of Iran link to Hamas attack, says Israeli military

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/no-evidence-yet-of-iran-link-to-hamas-attack-says-israeli-military#:~:text=The Israeli military has said,by the Iranian foreign ministry.

U.S. intelligence indicates Iranian leaders were surprised by Hamas attack

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/us-intelligence-indicates-iranian-leaders-surprised-hamas-attack-rcna119946

Morch · December 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Funny. I haven't found anything from the Israelis or the U.S. that corroborates this person's claim.

No evidence yet of Iran link to Hamas attack, says Israeli military

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/no-evidence-yet-of-iran-link-to-hamas-attack-says-israeli-military#:~:text=The Israeli military has said,by the Iranian foreign ministry.

U.S. intelligence indicates Iranian leaders were surprised by Hamas attack

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/us-intelligence-indicates-iranian-leaders-surprised-hamas-attack-rcna119946

Check his background....he's on a mission.

Doesn't mean Iran isn't 'bad', but maybe not as involved as he tries to claim.

There's not much in the piece that actually supports this, even.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Funny. I haven't found anything from the Israelis or the U.S. that corroborates this person's claim.

No evidence yet of Iran link to Hamas attack, says Israeli military

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/09/no-evidence-yet-of-iran-link-to-hamas-attack-says-israeli-military#:~:text=The Israeli military has said,by the Iranian foreign ministry.

U.S. intelligence indicates Iranian leaders were surprised by Hamas attack

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/us-intelligence-indicates-iranian-leaders-surprised-hamas-attack-rcna119946

I'm aware of those old reports yes

I posted one of them myself weeks ago.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

I'm aware of those old reports yes

I posted one of them myself weeks ago.

Got any new ones from Israeli or American Intelligence which say differently?

Here's something from a little later on:

"Several U.S. officials said Washington has “compelling” intelligence indicating that Iranian leaders were surprised by the Hamas assault."

https://archive.ph/HhIXi

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained-in-iran-before-oct-7-attacks-e2a8dbb9

placeholder · December 22, 2023

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

Check his background....he's on a mission.

Doesn't mean Iran isn't 'bad', but maybe not as involved as he tries to claim.

There's not much in the piece that actually supports this, even.

I agree. The author's chief point seems to be how could Hamas have planned unaided this operation.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

9 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Got any new ones from Israeli or American Intelligence which say differently?

Here's something from a little later on:

"Several U.S. officials said Washington has “compelling” intelligence indicating that Iranian leaders were surprised by the Hamas assault."

https://archive.ph/HhIXi

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-fighters-trained-in-iran-before-oct-7-attacks-e2a8dbb9

No. I posted the. One today. I am fully up to speed on the unlikelyhood that Iran helped plan Oct 7th. Including lack of evidence and official denials. However with the amount of money Iran pumped into Hamas and a Hamas leader saying Iran helped I am leaving all options open. Before you hit respond. I am also very well aware the Hamas official may be less than honest.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

No. I posted the. One today. I am fully up to speed on the unlikelyhood that Iran helped plan Oct 7th. Including lack of evidence and official denials. However with the amount of money Iran pumped into Hamas and a Hamas leader saying Iran helped I am leaving all options open. Before you hit respond. I am also very well aware the Hamas official may be less than honest.

If you are fully aware of the unlikelihood, then why did you post such a dubious article? Because you disagreed with it? And what Hamas official are you referring to?

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

If you are fully aware of the unlikelihood, then why did you post such a dubious article? Because you disagreed with it? And what Hamas official are you referring to?

Because as I stated I am leaving all options open. I including that article. That's why I posted. Comprende?

Actually a Hamas and Hezbolla official. I am on phone now. No links but this has been discussed in detail weeks ago.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Because as I stated I am leaving all options open. I including that article. That's why I posted. Comprende?

Actually a Hamas and Hezbolla official. I am on phone now. No links but this has been discussed in detail weeks ago.

Will you be posting without comment any articles that argue, say, that Israel is committing war crimes? Your alleged reason for posting that article is disingenuous to say the least.

And I don't think it's incumbent upon anyone participating in the thread, with the exception of scholars of it, should there prove to be any, to be au courant with comments that were made weeks and many, many pages ago.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

Just now, placeholder said:

Will you be posting without comment any articles that argue, say, that Israel is committing war crimes? Your alleged reason for posting that article is disingenuous to say the least.

And I don't think it's incumbent upon anyone participating in the thread, with the exception of scholars of it, should there prove to be any, to be au courant with comments that were made weeks ago.

Yawn........read my post again

placeholder · December 22, 2023

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yawn........read my post again

I think it's you who should read your post again. Given that I raised a new point against a new one you raisied, I have to conclude that "yawn", is just a piece of evasion on your part. And this comment will probably be met with more of the same from you. So, in the spirit of anticipation...

placeholder · December 22, 2023

A Times Investigation Tracked Israel’s Use of One of Its Most Destructive Bombs in South Gaza

During the first six weeks of the war in Gaza, Israel routinely used one of its biggest and most destructive bombs in areas it designated safe for civilians, according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.
The video investigation focuses on the use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area of southern Gaza where Israel had ordered civilians to move for safety. While bombs of that size are used by several Western militaries, munitions experts say they are almost never dropped by U.S. forces in densely populated areas anymore.

https://archive.ph/DBMy7#selection-699.0-707.291

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/21/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-bomb-investigation.html

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

17 minutes ago, placeholder said:

I think it's you who should read your post again. Given that I raised a new point against a new one you raisied, I have to conclude that "yawn", is just a piece of evasion on your part. And this comment will probably be met with more of the same from you. So, in the spirit of anticipation...

What is it you fail to understand that I am leaving all options open including that article? It's a pretty straightforward view that you are trying to make something of. Yes yawn.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

Looks like the latest UN resolution may go through. The US is signaling support. It includes the demand that there is an immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

It's being voted on later today.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-security-council-to-vote-on-gaza-resolution-as-us-signals-support-for-latest-draft/

placeholder · December 22, 2023

15 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Looks like the latest UN resolution may go through. The US is signaling support. It includes the demand that there is an immediate and unconditional release of all hostages.

It's being voted on later today.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-security-council-to-vote-on-gaza-resolution-as-us-signals-support-for-latest-draft/

And what is Israel signaling?

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And what is Israel signaling?

No idea. They don't get to vote in the Security Council.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

No idea. They don't get to vote in the Security Council.

So they're under a gag order?

Morch · December 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And what is Israel signaling?

It depends where you look to.

On some levels, there's a lot of tough talk - mostly from right wing politicians.

On the military level? Far more realistic, and mentions of a year or more of fighting to get significant, more long lasting results.

In as much as the UN resolution goes, Israel already signaled it's up for a 'pause' (or whatever they'll call it) if it's accompanied by hostages released/traded.

Hamas is of two voices on this.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So they're under a gag order?

No they are under a cannot vote order. If you want their views then find out and let me know.

placeholder · December 22, 2023

28 minutes ago, Morch said:

It depends where you look to.

On some levels, there's a lot of tough talk - mostly from right wing politicians.

On the military level? Far more realistic, and mentions of a year or more of fighting to get significant, more long lasting results.

In as much as the UN resolution goes, Israel already signaled it's up for a 'pause' (or whatever they'll call it) if it's accompanied by hostages released/traded.

Hamas is of two voices on this.

The problem is going to be that even if Hamas agrees to release hostages, Israel's idea of a pause probably isn't going to be long enough to address the humanitarian disaster that is developing in Gaza. And there is a report, unconfirmed by Western media, that Israel has killed the head of the border crossing operation at Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) as well as three others. That was the crossing recently opened to allow for more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza.

Jingthing · December 22, 2023

33 minutes ago, placeholder said:

So they're under a gag order?

So you're ignorant about the security council. Big surprise.

Jingthing · December 22, 2023

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The problem is going to be that even if Hamas agrees to release hostages, Israel's idea of a pause probably isn't going to be long enough to address the humanitarian disaster that is developing in Gaza. And there is a report, unconfirmed by Western media, that Israel has killed the head of the border crossing operation at Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) as well as three others. That was the crossing recently opened to allow for more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza.

Who are you kidding?

Hamas isn't going to release all the hostages.

The UN doing one of their circle jerks.

Bkk Brian · December 22, 2023

Just now, Jingthing said:

So you're ignorant about the security council. Big surprise.

If the vote goes through I will wait to get the feedback from Israel then, all hypothetical currently.

Anyway, lets face it, there is no way Hamas is going to release the hostages unconditionally and there is no call in the security council resolution for an immediate ceasefire either.

Morch · December 22, 2023

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

The problem is going to be that even if Hamas agrees to release hostages, Israel's idea of a pause probably isn't going to be long enough to address the humanitarian disaster that is developing in Gaza. And there is a report, unconfirmed by Western media, that Israel has killed the head of the border crossing operation at Karem Abu Salem (Kerem Shalom) as well as three others. That was the crossing recently opened to allow for more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza.

If it's a 'release hostages for a pause' situation, than Hamas (supposedly) got enough to make it last a while.

Fully addressing humanitarian issues in the Gaza Strip is not an option anyway, at this point.

Not sure what the significance of the latter part is, or what you think it implies.