Israel and Hamas fight house-to-house battles across Gaza

[Jingthing]

I've noticed that the IDF soldiers have taken heavy losses. 

So much for the BS argument that it's Israel fighting against rock throwers.

Also note that Israel separates civilian from military casualty stats.

The Palestinian Arabs don't (for obvious propaganda reasons).

[Morch]

35 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I've noticed that the IDF soldiers have taken heavy losses. 

So much for the BS argument that it's Israel fighting against rock throwers.

Also note that Israel separates civilian from military casualty stats.

The Palestinian Arabs don't (for obvious propaganda reasons).

 

IDF losses come from a change in tactics/strategy. Less bombings (more civilians around, and IDF units sometimes operating in close proximity to one another, narrower streets where tanks can't get through). Also these are the more hardcore Hamas areas. The casualty rate seen now is more like what was initially expected in past assessments. While heavy, it's not outstanding or surprising. What I do notice is that a lot of the casualties are reserve duty troops. Could be a wrong impression, or just a numbers game.

[Jingthing]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

IDF losses come from a change in tactics/strategy. Less bombings (more civilians around, and IDF units sometimes operating in close proximity to one another, narrower streets where tanks can't get through). Also these are the more hardcore Hamas areas. The casualty rate seen now is more like what was initially expected in past assessments. While heavy, it's not outstanding or surprising. What I do notice is that a lot of the casualties are reserve duty troops. Could be a wrong impression, or just a numbers game.

Yes that's my impression too.

The voices saying that Israel shouldn't be using bombs fail to say what they really mean --that they think Israel should accept much heavier losses to appease the Gods of so called proportionality. What other country that has the weapons would freely sacrifice that way? Would the Palestinians?

To be clear I'm not saying that Israel has waged a perfect war with every target properly justified as if that's even possible for any humans to do. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Yes that's my impression too.

The voices saying that Israel shouldn't be using bombs fail to say what they really mean --that they think Israel should accept much heavier losses to appease the Gods of so called proportionality. What other country that has the weapons would freely sacrifice that way? Would the Palestinians?

To be clear I'm not saying that Israel has waged a perfect war with every target properly justified as if that's even possible for any humans to do. 

 

Your "accidental collateral damage"argument is a furphy. Israel had every opportunity to not commit war crimes. They could go after Hamas using any means at their disposal besides committing war crimes. They deliberately chose not to. Countries can't commit war crimes because they deem it expedient.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Your "accidental collateral damage"argument is a furphy. Israel had every opportunity to not commit war crimes. They could go after Hamas using any means at their disposal besides committing war crimes. They deliberately chose not to. Countries can't commit war crimes because they deem it expedient.

 

Again, you saying 'war crimes' doesn't make things 'war crimes'.

Similarly, you are no military expert, so again - you saying there were options, is just you saying stuff.

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Again, you saying 'war crimes' doesn't make things 'war crimes'.

Similarly, you are no military expert, so again - you saying there were options, is just you saying stuff.

 

You'd have a point if it was just me saying they were war crimes.

[Nick Carter icp]

10 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Your "accidental collateral damage"argument is a furphy. Israel had every opportunity to not commit war crimes. They could go after Hamas using any means at their disposal besides committing war crimes. They deliberately chose not to. Countries can't commit war crimes because they deem it expedient.

 

   You do not know what military intelligence , information Israel had on the buildings that got hit .

You do not know whether the buildings were being used by Hamas or not .

   You could make the claim that Isreals bombing of Gaza is Apartheid and racist , because Israel isn't bombing Tel Aviv in a similar fashion ?

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You'd have a point if it was just me saying they were war crimes.

 

   You and other Anti Israel Palestinians supporters .

You are just using those words in an attempt to get Israel to stop their war against Hamas, because you are losing the war 

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You'd have a point if it was just me saying they were war crimes.

 

There is no official statement by relevant bodies, backed by the required legal proof, that asserts that.

What you describe is exactly my point. People use 'war crimes' without actually knowing what this implies, how things are considered legally and so on.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

Seems that Hamas isn't a push over, and israeli troops are paying the price on the ground

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240104-another-19-israel-soldiers-injured-in-gaza-fighting-army-says/

According to the figures, 509 soldiers have been killed and 2,309 others injured since the outbreak of the Gaza conflict on 7 October.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems that Hamas isn't a push over, and israeli troops are paying the price on the ground

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240104-another-19-israel-soldiers-injured-in-gaza-fighting-army-says/

According to the figures, 509 soldiers have been killed and 2,309 others injured since the outbreak of the Gaza conflict on 7 October.

It's a war. Israel didn't ask for it. Iran trained Hamas terrorists forced it.

I guess the fact that Israel is suffering significant casualties takes an argument away from the Israel demononizers who are always angry when they don't during wars.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by Jingthing

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems that Hamas isn't a push over, and israeli troops are paying the price on the ground

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240104-another-19-israel-soldiers-injured-in-gaza-fighting-army-says/

According to the figures, 509 soldiers have been killed and 2,309 others injured since the outbreak of the Gaza conflict on 7 October.

 Whoever claimed Hamas was going to be a push over? With estimates of 40,000 - 60,000 fighters in Gaza it was never going to be done overnight. Did Middle East Monitor mention that for the last 16 years they've been burying themselves underneath the Gaza civilian population for the very reason to use them as human shields and sacrifice? Oh and with money that was intended to be for the people and not them? Thought not.

 

Those figures quoted of 509 Israeli soldiers deaths. You Hamas supporting Middle East Monitor did not tell you that its under 200 deaths in the fight on Hamas in Gaza, the rest were deaths due to the terrorist attack on 7th Oct.

 

"Middle East Monitor promotes a strongly pro-Muslim Brotherhood and pro-Hamas viewpoint. Anshel Pfeffer described MEMO as a “conspiracy theory-peddling anti-Israel organisation”.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-monitor/

 

Latest figures for Hamas fighters killed is between 8,000 - 9,000. Northern Gaza has been dismantled of the terrorist command infrastructure, just central and southern Gaza left, yes it wil take another year or so.

 

I do actually follow Middle East Monitor on X, good to keep an eye on the enemy along with the official Hamas affiliated accounts.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems that Hamas isn't a push over, and israeli troops are paying the price on the ground

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240104-another-19-israel-soldiers-injured-in-gaza-fighting-army-says/

According to the figures, 509 soldiers have been killed and 2,309 others injured since the outbreak of the Gaza conflict on 7 October.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

On more than one comment, you try to minimize Hamas's might, painting it as some under-equipped ragtag bunch of insurrectionists. When it suits, or when you don't pay attention out comes the glorification.

 

As for your nonsense - no one thought Hamas would be a 'push over'. Quite the opposite. If anything more resistance was expected than what's on offer. Regarding casualties - a whole lot of the IDF death toll happened on the 7/10 attack - with many being non-combatant soldiers. The death toll since the fighting began is about 200, I think. Israel could have simply relied on an aerial bombing campaign, saving troops on the ground lives, but then you'd probably be here spewing criticism about 'cowardice', or whining about the increased Palestinian death toll.

Edited January 8 by Morch

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

On more than one comment, you try to minimize Hamas's might, painting it as some under-equipped ragtag bunch of insurrectionists. When it suits, or when you don't pay attention out comes the glorification.

 

As for your nonsense - no one thought Hamas would be a 'push over'. Quite the opposite. If anything more resistance was expected than what's on offer. Regarding casualties - a whole lot of the IDF death toll happened on the 7/10 attack - with many being non-combatant soldiers. The death toll since the fighting began is about 200, I think. Israel could have simply relied on an aerial bombing campaign, saving troops on the ground lives, but then you'd probably be here spewing criticism about 'cowardice', or whining about the increased Palestinian death toll.

Exactly.

For the Israel demonizers everything and anything Israel does is always wrong except if they choose to commit national suicide and stop defending themselves.

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

On more than one comment, you try to minimize Hamas's might, painting it as some under-equipped ragtag bunch of insurrectionists. When it suits, or when you don't pay attention out comes the glorification.

 

As for your nonsense - no one thought Hamas would be a 'push over'. Quite the opposite. If anything more resistance was expected than what's on offer. Regarding casualties - a whole lot of the IDF death toll happened on the 7/10 attack - with many being non-combatant soldiers. The death toll since the fighting began is about 200, I think. Israel could have simply relied on an aerial bombing campaign, saving troops on the ground lives, but then you'd probably be here spewing criticism about 'cowardice', or whining about the increased Palestinian death toll.

This is nonsense. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

How many Israeli civilians have been killed in Gaza? 

Of course they separate them. 

Really? Show that then. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Really? Show that then. 

Have any civilians been killed? 

[Neeranam]

On 12/14/2023 at 1:30 PM, Jingthing said:

I've noticed that the IDF soldiers have taken heavy losses. 

So much for the BS argument that it's Israel fighting against rock throwers.

Also note that Israel separates civilian from military casualty stats.

The Palestinian Arabs don't (for obvious propaganda reasons).

Israel have killed about 160 civilians a day, mostly kids throughout this massacre. 

I really can't believe you can't condemn this

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza

[Voodoochile]

Israel knows how to treat those people and western nations should learn from this instead of time after time attack after attack all they do is hold a moment of silence and a peaceful protests, what a joke. Respect to Israel for bombing the F out of them 🫡🫡
 

 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Israel have killed about 160 civilians a day, mostly kids throughout this massacre. 

I really can't believe you can't condemn this

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/08/the-numbers-that-reveal-the-extent-of-the-destruction-in-gaza

Some are civllians. Some are active Hamas. 

We've been through this before. 

Hamas uses human shields and Israel has decided (for better or worse) that it's worth it for their military goals to target Hamas fighters knowing some civilians will be killed. Like all wars. It's a matter of degree. Again, this is a WAR. 

Edited January 8 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Some are civllians. Some are active Hamas. 

We've been through this before. 

Hamas uses human shields and Israel has decided (for better or worse) that it's worth it for their military goals to target Hamas fighters knowing some civilians will be killed. Like all wars. It's a matter of degree. Again, this is a WAR. 

 

war excuses no war crimes.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

war excuses no war crimes.

To Israel demonizers, Israel defending themselves against barbaric terrorists is a war crime by definition.

[ozimoron]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

To Israel demonizers, Israel defending themselves against barbaric terrorists is a war crime by definition.

 

South Africa thinks there's more to it than that.

[Jingthing]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

South Africa thinks there's more to it than that.

Israel isn't South Africa.

Jews are indigenous to Israel.

Afrikaners aren't.

 

[Morch]

Some people say Israel killed 160 Gazans per day.

 

On 7/10, Hamas managed over a 1000 in a day.

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

war excuses no war crimes.

 

@ozimoron

 

You do not seem to have a clear grasp on what 'war crimes' actually are, and the legalities involved.

All you have on offer are one-liners and headlines.

 

Like it or not, accept it or not, the issue of 'human shields' is a thing.

[Morch]

30 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

South Africa thinks there's more to it than that.

 

@ozimoron

 

Yes, and?

South Africa is not suspected of being overly friendly with Israel on a good day.

 

On a parallel topic, you just scolded another poster for bringing up other countries not directly related to the topic at hand.

This topic is not about South Africa's ICJ move, but guess it's alright for you to bring it up - because of reasons. Or something.

[ozimoron]

The far-right figures — notably ministers Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir — harbor deep anti-Palestinian views and are resistant to U.S. proposals that they consider too friendly to the Palestinians. If they abandon Netanyahu’s coalition, he could lose his prime ministership, increasing his legal peril.

 

That has made Netanyahu reluctant to take American advice on the war, and it suggests that U.S.-Israeli tensions will grow as Palestinians struggle to survive Israel’s bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

 

Ben-Gvir and Smotrich have gone further, reportedly calling for the supposedly voluntary migration of Palestinians out of Gaza and future Israeli settlement and occupation of the territory.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/01/08/netanyahu-israeli-leader-losing-control-00134146

 

Edited January 8 by ozimoron

[Neeranam]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

Some people say Israel killed 160 Gazans per day.

 

On 7/10, Hamas managed over a 1000 in a day.

 

 

 

 

What a nonsensical comment. 

[Neeranam]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@ozimoron

 

You do not seem to have a clear grasp on what 'war crimes' actually are, and the legalities involved.

All you have on offer are one-liners and headlines.

 

Like it or not, accept it or not, the issue of 'human shields' is a thing.

For a start, indescriminate bombing, is that a war crime?