The Problem With EVs

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

This guy has already stated

He expressed his concern that many insurance companies in Thailand were currently competing to offer the most affordable rates in order to attract the majority of EV car owners.

The move, he believes, is lacking in prudence and overlooks the EV's loss ratio.

https://www.nationthailand.com/business/corporate/40033774

I think he his indicating a potential  rerun of the Covid insurance fiasco but next time it will be EV insurance fiasco

I read recently Thailand has the highest uptake rate of EV's in south Asia. I seem to see a lot of them in Chiang Rai.

The final insurance loss of the Felicity Ace sinking is just under $500 million. While there is still argument over the cause of the sinking, IMO if it has webbed feet, walks like a duck, talks like a duck - it's a duck.

$500 million consequential damage from a single faulty car battery is one hell of an achievement. I understand the ship's insurers are trying to transfer the loss to (a) the cargo insurers (b) the car makers.

Let's say an ICE insured value and premium both decrease with age, standard practice. Can insurers afford to do that with an EV? The risk of consequential damage due to an EV fire stays the same, irrespective of insured value. In fact, it may increase as the battery cells age.

Interesting times for the car insurance industry.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 hours ago, BritManToo said:

My 50,000bht battery pack does the same job as your 1,000,000bht ev so that's hardly cost effective.

It is reasonably cost effective. You have  ฿50,000 brick that you very seldom use, if you use it very often then a diesel generator is cheaper and more effective. However if you have an EV with power out technology you have a dual use item that you usually drive but can substitute for your ฿50,000 brick that virtually never gets used.

 

There are other things that makes an EV a vehicle I am unlikely to buy, but it is undoubtedly a good option for short power cuts 

[vinny41]

2 hours ago, Lacessit said:

I read recently Thailand has the highest uptake rate of EV's in south Asia. I seem to see a lot of them in Chiang Rai.

The final insurance loss of the Felicity Ace sinking is just under $500 million. While there is still argument over the cause of the sinking, IMO if it has webbed feet, walks like a duck, talks like a duck - it's a duck.

$500 million consequential damage from a single faulty car battery is one hell of an achievement. I understand the ship's insurers are trying to transfer the loss to (a) the cargo insurers (b) the car makers.

Let's say an ICE insured value and premium both decrease with age, standard practice. Can insurers afford to do that with an EV? The risk of consequential damage due to an EV fire stays the same, irrespective of insured value. In fact, it may increase as the battery cells age.

Interesting times for the car insurance industry.

If we look at the Uk as an example EV insurance in 2022 was at a reasonable cost for the UK  but as the numbers of new EV's were being registered almost  almost 270,000 new vehicles insurance premiums have increased 

In the Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver).

Analysts say claims costs are 25% higher for electric cars, and that they also take about 14% longer to repair than a diesel or petrol equivalent. The cost and availability of parts is a factor, explains Paul Baxter, the chief executive of the new brand the Green Insurer. There is also concern around the batteries, and that damage, especially to the underside, can be expensive to fix.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

the jump of £447 ( B20,000) to £4,661 (B209,745 is huge

[JBChiangRai]

8 hours ago, vinny41 said:

If we look at the Uk as an example EV insurance in 2022 was at a reasonable cost for the UK  but as the numbers of new EV's were being registered almost  almost 270,000 new vehicles insurance premiums have increased 

In the Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver).

Analysts say claims costs are 25% higher for electric cars, and that they also take about 14% longer to repair than a diesel or petrol equivalent. The cost and availability of parts is a factor, explains Paul Baxter, the chief executive of the new brand the Green Insurer. There is also concern around the batteries, and that damage, especially to the underside, can be expensive to fix.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/30/the-quotes-were-5000-or-more-electric-vehicle-owners-face-soaring-insurance-costs

the jump of £447 ( B20,000) to £4,661 (B209,745 is huge

If the claim cost is 25% higher for EV’s then without providing a replacement car there is no justification for anything more than a 25% increase.

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is reasonably cost effective. You have  ฿50,000 brick that you very seldom use, if you use it very often then a diesel generator is cheaper and more effective. However if you have an EV with power out technology you have a dual use item that you usually drive but can substitute for your ฿50,000 brick that virtually never gets used.

 

There are other things that makes an EV a vehicle I am unlikely to buy, but it is undoubtedly a good option for short power cuts 

My batteries are used for 16hrs every day.

[BritManToo]

45 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

If the claim cost is 25% higher for EV’s then without providing a replacement car there is no justification for anything more than a 25% increase.

The car parks, ships, houses and neighbouring vehicles the EV burns with it need to be added to the insurance liability.

Edited December 24, 2023 by BritManToo

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

The car parks, ships, houses and neighbouring vehicles the EV burns with it need to be added to the insurance liability.

 

He did say the claim cost is 25% higher, that includes all liabilities as they are all part of the claim.

[sometimewoodworker]

21 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

My batteries are used for 16hrs every day.

So it rather looks as if you have a solar/battery array. That would also be able to (if it doesn’t already) charge an electric powered or assisted vehicle, 

if that is the case then your ฿50,000 battery was a small part of a system that cost several to many times the cost of the battery.

So comparing the cost of your battery to the cost if an EV is disingenuous at least. A solar/battery system is likely to be a vastly different comparison. To between ¼ the price of an EV to ½ or less not the 20 X that you claim. It also isn’t mobile and is arguably a single use item unlike an EV with power out that is dual use.

If my deduction is accurate then you should really compare like to like

[Gweiloman]

37 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

My batteries are used for 16hrs every day.

If your battery costs Thb 50,000, then it’s probably 3 kWh or so (unless you’re talking about one of those Chinese made junk that you vehemently deride). If I remember correctly, your energy needs are minimal. You don’t have air conditioners nor a washing machine. Just a fan, a fridge, a TV and a PC/laptop. In that case, it is conceivable that you charge your battery with your solar and then run the whole house on the 3 kWh battery once the sun goes down until it rises again the next morning.

 

Firstly, very few people, if any, are in your situation where they hardly use any electricity. Secondly, if I were to consume so little power, then I would rather save my 50k baht and just pay PEA the piddly couple of hundred baht a month. It would take a lifers if not more for the ROI on the 50,000 baht battery.

[BritManToo]

15 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

If your battery costs Thb 50,000, then it’s probably 3 kWh or so (unless you’re talking about one of those Chinese made junk that you vehemently deride).

 

Firstly, very few people, if any, are in your situation where they hardly use any electricity. 

50kbht gets you 12Kwhr of battery.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i4108131528-s16075067103.html

 

Would point out nearly all batteries are made in China.

And most of your EV was manufactured in China.

 

Would also point out those who want to save the world should use less/consume less/waste less.

Spending 1.2MBht on an EV then using loads of energy (you didn't produce) is disingenuous at best.

My energy consumption is around 350 units/month, of which I produce 300 units from solar.

And the reason I use so little is because I refuse to allow waste in my household.

Edited December 24, 2023 by BritManToo

[Gweiloman]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

50kbht gets you 12Kwhr of battery.

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i4108131528-s16075067103.html

 

Would point out nearly all batteries are made in China.

And most of your EV was manufactured in China.

Not sure if I would trust something like that in my house.

 

This one, I would trust more

https://s.lazada.co.th/

 

How long does it take your solar installation to fully charge up your 12 kWh battery?

 

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

If the claim cost is 25% higher for EV’s then without providing a replacement car there is no justification for anything more than a 25% increase.

When did you develop the mindset insurance companies are charitable organizations?

With the possible exception of Thailand, insurance companies have probably worked out EV's are a captive market. With the contingent liability of an EV fire, how many EV owners could afford the risk of driving uninsured?

As I said before, enjoy the party while it lasts.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

When did you develop the mindset insurance companies are charitable organizations?

With the possible exception of Thailand, insurance companies have probably worked out EV's are a captive market. With the contingent liability of an EV fire, how many EV owners could afford the risk of driving uninsured?

As I said before, enjoy the party while it lasts.

 

Nonsense, insurance is a competitive business, there's no opportunity to profiteer or you lose market share.  Like all businesses they are driven by profit & growth, profiteer and your growth goes negative.

[Lacessit]

10 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

Nonsense, insurance is a competitive business, there's no opportunity to profiteer or you lose market share.  Like all businesses they are driven by profit & growth, profiteer and your growth goes negative.

Do you know what a cartel is?

Why would insurance companies in the UK pitch premiums for EV's higher than for ICE's, unless they recognized a higher risk level?

 

[KhunLA]

53 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Would point out nearly all batteries are made in China ... And most of your EV was manufactured in China.  ... Would also point out those who want to save the world

"made in CH" ... I consider that a good thing

... though as always, choose wisely

 

I not here or buy from CH to save the world, just to save money.  Same as you, and probably why you didn't buy & import your transport & solar from the UK.

 

I'd rather not support the monopolizing conglomerates; fossil fuel/petrol and electricity, and enjoy my independence from them.   CH makes that easy, and why they are demonized in MSM.

 

I buy the best value product from the best vendor, from what ever country provides it. Right now, and probably all in the future, that's CH.

 

 I have no allegiance to any country, as none (USA, TH) cares about me or has done anything for me.  

Edited December 24, 2023 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Do you know what a cartel is?

Why would insurance companies in the UK pitch premiums for EV's higher than for ICE's, unless they recognized a higher risk level?

 

 

They have pitched them higher, but if we accepted the earlier poster as fact, then their risk is 25% more so there is no need to increase premiums by more than 25% which would retain the same profit margin.

 

There are other problems in the UK, a very high percentage of cars aren't taxed or insured and this puts premiums up for everybody, but it doesn't affect EV's more than legacy cars.

[BritManToo]

14 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

"made in CH" ... I consider that a good thing

... though as always, choose wisely

 

I not here or buy from CH to save the world, just to save money.  Same as you, and probably why you didn't buy & import your transport & solar from the UK.

 

I'd rather not support the monopolizing conglomerates; fossil fuel/petrol and electricity, and enjoy my independence from them.   CH makes that easy, and why they are demonized in MSM.

I also have concerns about government control of everything.

Your all electronic no cash modern world gives your government the chance to switch off all your access to money.

Do you really believe the authorities can't switch off your ev?

Smart electricity meters can also switch off your house supply.

Same for phone and internet.

 

Not so much a danger in Thailand, But the UK/US/EU/Oz could all switch off everything and make you a non-person.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, BritManToo said:

I also have concerns about government control of everything.

Your all electronic no cash modern world gives your government the chance to switch off all your access to money.

Do you really believe the authorities can't switch off your ev?

Smart electricity meters can also switch off your house supply.

Same for phone and internet.

 

Not so much a danger in Thailand, But the UK/US/EU/Oz could all switch off everything and make you a non-person.

Yep, agree completely.   Don't think our EV has on/off switch, and wouldn't, haven't updated our ZS, partly for that reason, besides,  not fixing what isn't broke.

 

Agree and why I like being here/TH.  Still 3rd world enough.  As I've stated elsewhere, when they go to all digital money, they will have total control, and all will then have to comply.  Next up will be geofencing in 'all' vehicles, so all movement will be controlled.

 

EU is going all digital money shortly, as just approved, and USA sure to follow.  Amazes me what people allow themselves to be divided and distracted from, while all their freedoms are about to be taken away.

 

You can't fix stupid.  

[stratocaster]

Regarding EV insurance, I am surprised that no one here has commented on the article in the Thai press. The article was from a Thai insurance company, I can not remember the name but it was similar to Thaiteit?? They state to lessen the higher insurance burden on EV as opposed to ICE they were introducing a monthly payment scheme at no extra cost. Curious to know what is the cost of insurance comparing say a Ora good cat and a Toyota Yaris?

[BritManToo]

2 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Next up will be geofencing in 'all' vehicles, so all movement will be controlled.

 

Agree, the 15 minute cities will just reprogramme your EV to stop it travelling outside their limit.

[Lacessit]

17 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

I also have concerns about government control of everything.

Your all electronic no cash modern world gives your government the chance to switch off all your access to money.

Do you really believe the authorities can't switch off your ev?

Smart electricity meters can also switch off your house supply.

Same for phone and internet.

 

Not so much a danger in Thailand, But the UK/US/EU/Oz could all switch off everything and make you a non-person.

Government control was complete, once everyone had a mobile phone.

[vinny41]

Electric vehicles: insurers balk at battery fires and write-offs

Higher insurance prices make EVs less attractive to consumers

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Rimmer
Link to paywall removed

[KhunLA]

27 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Electric vehicles: insurers balk at battery fires and write-offs

Higher insurance prices make EVs less attractive to consumers

https://www.ft.com/content/9a353ff6-ce86-4c53-b736-a1f24fdabe80

Guess it depends on broker & carrier used.  Our ZS ICE was just a tad less than EV version insurance, even though insured value is more than 2X the amount (400k vs 900k) if written off as totaled/stolen.

 

Different broker/carrier.  ICE broker (cousin) was proportionately higher, about 50%, to insure the EV, again, even though value was 2X.  So rate didn't correspond with insured value, actually a lower rate than would be expected, using some people's thoughts.

 

Different broker/carrier even cut that price, down to the ICE's previous price.   Quite the bargain compared to other ins. carriers.

Edited December 24, 2023 by KhunLA

[vinny41]

In the UK and China countries  that have seen a large surge in new energy vehicles there seems to be a trend of insurance companies no longer willing to accept new business or renewals of new energy vehicles

In China BEV are bundle into a category called new energy vehicles which consists of the government stipulates that new energy vehicles include three categories: pure electric vehicles (EV), plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV), and fuel cell vehicles (FCEV)

There are some  insurance companies that are still willing to accept  new business or renewals of new energy vehicles but only with higher insurance premiums or additional insurances attached to the main policy such as seat insurance ( vehicle occupants liability insurance )

The refusal of no longer accepting  accept new business or renewals of new energy vehicles seems to be a 2023 trend in previous years there doesn't seem to be an issue

Ping An Property Insurance Company's car insurance telephone customer service also told reporters: "In the event of a collision of fuel vehicles, the amount of individual parts should be as much as possible; the collision of new energy vehicles often damages not only one part, but the whole is broken, so the amount of compensation will be higher." Therefore, the car insurance sector of new energy vehicles is not profitable, and all of them are losing money, so insurance companies are now able to do not do it. ”

https://www.laitimes.com/en/article/68kom_6owzh.html

[vinny41]

New EV insurance model to be launched in Thailand January 1st 2024

OIC approves EV car insurance criteria, D-Day January 2024, collects driver history

Set up a policy that specifies the names of all drivers

“Of course, the time of the incident in the first year and the incident in the fifth year, the amount of liability Batteries are not equal. But the policy will have an option to give the insured the opportunity to receive full compensation. Or you can change to a new one instead. There will be an attached document where you can voluntarily purchase additional insurance.”

https://www.prachachat.net/finance/news-1384213

 

I think its safe to say that Insurance premiums for EV's will increase either via the main policy or via additional insurance policy that covers just the battery

 

 

[vinny41]

Sliding scale for Battery insurance coverage from Jan 1st 2024

In this new electric car insurance criteria There is separate protection for the battery from the car. In the event that the electric car battery is damaged to the point of having to replace the entire battery set with a new one The insurance company will pay compensation for electric vehicle batteries according to the life of the battery. In the first year (not more than 1 year), compensation will be 100% and the compensation rate will be reduced by 10% per year, with a minimum compensation of 50% (over 5 years old).

https://ev.iphonemod.net/office-of-insurance-commission-aprrove-bev-insurance-for-2024/

[KhunLA]

13 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Sliding scale for Battery insurance coverage from Jan 1st 2024

In this new electric car insurance criteria There is separate protection for the battery from the car. In the event that the electric car battery is damaged to the point of having to replace the entire battery set with a new one The insurance company will pay compensation for electric vehicle batteries according to the life of the battery. In the first year (not more than 1 year), compensation will be 100% and the compensation rate will be reduced by 10% per year, with a minimum compensation of 50% (over 5 years old).

https://ev.iphonemod.net/office-of-insurance-commission-aprrove-bev-insurance-for-2024/

Another reason to live in TH, instead of the rip off countries.  10% per year is silly, when our degradation of battery bank was only 0.6% for the year, and that's driving 20k kms a year.

 

So by their math, our ZS, at the end of 8 yr warranty/180k kms is only worth about 20% of original, losing 80% of 'their' silly value, when reality, it only will lose <5%.

Edited December 24, 2023 by KhunLA

[JBChiangRai]

 

1 minute ago, vinny41 said:

Sliding scale for Battery insurance coverage from Jan 1st 2024

In this new electric car insurance criteria There is separate protection for the battery from the car. In the event that the electric car battery is damaged to the point of having to replace the entire battery set with a new one The insurance company will pay compensation for electric vehicle batteries according to the life of the battery. In the first year (not more than 1 year), compensation will be 100% and the compensation rate will be reduced by 10% per year, with a minimum compensation of 50% (over 5 years old).

https://ev.iphonemod.net/office-of-insurance-commission-aprrove-bev-insurance-for-2024/

 

I am not sure customers will accept this, Tesla is a mature model in USA and we've not seen it there.  Battery degradation is nothing like 10% per year, I can see EV owners asking the dealer to check battery SoH (state of health) and expecting that to be covered.  I would for sure.

 

17 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

New EV insurance model to be launched in Thailand January 1st 2024

OIC approves EV car insurance criteria, D-Day January 2024, collects driver history

Set up a policy that specifies the names of all drivers

“Of course, the time of the incident in the first year and the incident in the fifth year, the amount of liability Batteries are not equal. But the policy will have an option to give the insured the opportunity to receive full compensation. Or you can change to a new one instead. There will be an attached document where you can voluntarily purchase additional insurance.”

https://www.prachachat.net/finance/news-1384213

 

I think its safe to say that Insurance premiums for EV's will increase either via the main policy or via additional insurance policy that covers just the battery

 

 

 

Roojai are already doing this and our premium for an MG EP+ was only 8,500 baht, we had to specify all regular drivers, we paid a surcharge to cover any occasional driver.

 

42 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In the UK and China countries  that have seen a large surge in new energy vehicles there seems to be a trend of insurance companies no longer willing to accept new business or renewals of new energy vehicles

In China BEV are bundle into a category called new energy vehicles which consists of the government stipulates that new energy vehicles include three categories: pure electric vehicles (EV), plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEV), and fuel cell vehicles (FCEV)

There are some  insurance companies that are still willing to accept  new business or renewals of new energy vehicles but only with higher insurance premiums or additional insurances attached to the main policy such as seat insurance ( vehicle occupants liability insurance )

The refusal of no longer accepting  accept new business or renewals of new energy vehicles seems to be a 2023 trend in previous years there doesn't seem to be an issue

Ping An Property Insurance Company's car insurance telephone customer service also told reporters: "In the event of a collision of fuel vehicles, the amount of individual parts should be as much as possible; the collision of new energy vehicles often damages not only one part, but the whole is broken, so the amount of compensation will be higher." Therefore, the car insurance sector of new energy vehicles is not profitable, and all of them are losing money, so insurance companies are now able to do not do it. ”

https://www.laitimes.com/en/article/68kom_6owzh.html

 

We have 2 countries with mature models, China & USA.  USA aren't doing this, I find the Chinese article suspect, it's talking about one company only.

 

What I do think we'll see if insurance becomes an issue, is companies like BYD offering and underwriting insurance on their cars and freezing out the middle man.  That would be no bad thing.  There is no way that the Thai government will allow insurance companies to derail their go EV policy.

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

 

 

I am not sure customers will accept this, Tesla is a mature model in USA and we've not seen it there.  Battery degradation is nothing like 10% per year, I can see EV owners asking the dealer to check battery SoH (state of health) and expecting that to be covered.  I would for sure.

 

 

Roojai are already doing this and our premium for an MG EP+ was only 8,500 baht, we had to specify all regular drivers, we paid a surcharge to cover any occasional driver.

 

 

We have 2 countries with mature models, China & USA.  USA aren't doing this, I find the Chinese article suspect, it's talking about one company only.

 

What I do think we'll see if insurance becomes an issue, is companies like BYD offering and underwriting insurance on their cars and freezing out the middle man.  That would be no bad thing.  There is no way that the Thai government will allow insurance companies to derail their go EV policy.

The Office of Insurance Commission is the regulator of Thailand’s insurance industry operating under the supervision of the Thai Minister of Finance. 

So it is the Thai government that is defining the EV car insurance criteria from January 1st 2024 including the sliding scale 10% policy on batteries

There must be a reason behind defining a new and separate insurance criteria for EV's only 

As for you finding the find the Chinese article suspect, it's talking about one company only. its the only article I could find in English if you do a search in chinese you will find its more than one company here a quote from another company

"The accident rate of new energy vehicles is nearly twice that of fuel vehicles." Zeng Yi, general manager of China Pacific Insurance Company, said bluntly. 

[vinny41]

34 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Another reason to live in TH, instead of the rip off countries.  10% per year is silly, when our degradation of battery bank was only 0.6% for the year, and that's driving 20k kms a year.

 

So by their math, our ZS, at the end of 8 yr warranty/180k kms is only worth about 20% of original, losing 80% of 'their' silly value, when reality, it only will lose <5%.

it did state minimum compensation of 50% (over 5 years old) 

and the OIC is part of the Thai Goverment and these changes start in 8 days time

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by vinny41
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