Local Immigration Nightmare

[lordgrinz]

10 hours ago, Kul1 said:

Some more difficult hurdles at my local office (Mukdahan)

went in yesterday 27th for a 2 month extension to visit wife , REJECTED 

i was on a 90 day non O from savannakhet, trying to extend it

the ridiculous reasoning left me it dumbfounded and i just walked out

they wanted to see marriage license, said ok have that 

then thai translation, certified said ok have that .

US embassy letter (sworn affidavit) ok , here you go ,have that. 
she turns to my wife and says , no im not accepting these , they could be fake !

wife says they’re what we have provided for 8 years now , NO!

Agent then pulls out a thai marriage certificate, with big thai seal , and says if it doesn’t look like this im not accepting it .

wife says just give a tourist visa then , NO ! He not eligible for that . 
had to border run to Laos , just get 30 day exempt stamp , try figure this <deleted> out .

time to go home , looking better all the time 

be prepared my friends, not getting easier 

 

 

Did you marry in the USA or Thailand?

Did your wife ever get the Kor Ror 2, or Kor Ror 22 done?

and did she also change her surname to yours?

 

Other than what you presented above, we also present our Kor Ror 22, and her Surname change each year. But just in case (a year later) I went ahead and got our Marriage Certificate from the USA authenticated by the US State Department (Apostille/Authentications), then had it legalized through the Thai Embassy in Washington D.C. and then stamped at MFA here at Chaengwattana. The Apostille/Authenticated version, as far as I know, is as high as you can go with that process, but it takes considerable time and effort to get it all done. I was worried about eventually running into the same issue you have, that's why I went with the Apostille, so far I haven't had to pull that out though.

[new2here]

17 hours ago, Korat Kiwi said:

These stories cease to amaze me.  It appears that no two Immigration Offices operate the same. 

 

They may all have the same rule books but interpretation is wild and varies from immigration officer to immigration officer. 

 

Why so many hurdles? Is it the unofficial push for customers to  use agents, so staff can indirectly begin to get a reasonable salary? 

 

No wonder people are getting miffed with this bureaucracy. 

to a large extent i agree.  Thai immigration law is written nationally and not provincially .. so what the law is in province A is the same as B and so on..

 

That said, I DO think that in totality it’s wise to allow some level of discretion or flexibility to allow each office, officer and case to be adjudicated based on the most relevant matters …. While i can certainly see a strong upside for saying “no discretion” and strict and literal adherence to national law, I DO think that leaving some minor wiggle room to allow for special circumstances to exist is wise.: because you’re bound to run not unique case that unfortunately fall outside of the literally law, and without allowing for discretion, might otherwise be a denial.

 

But.. of course the tricky part is how does one police that discretion so that it’s bot abuses or taken too far. 

[Sydebolle]

..... and then they are surprised when the number of alien retirees residing in the land is dwindling. No other country I ever heard of would treat alien (net spenders of money) like that. But then again, where else would you employ those thousands of absolutely brainless p1rkkcs? 

What can help sometimes is to take the wife along so she can see on a one-on-one basis, what kind of alien-hating b"ç%"3s are playing so ever-important! More than once I heard the Thai missus losing it and gave the semi-divine behind the desk and protective acrylic shield (against all those nasty alien bugs) her opinion - not to be forgotten by the officers ...... 

[WorriedNoodle]

20 hours ago, Kul1 said:

Agent then pulls out a thai marriage certificate, with big thai seal , and says if it doesn’t look like this im not accepting it .

So why didn't you do this?

[Kalorymetr]

They treat you like dogs. Why even stay here if unwelcome?

[Kul1]

Yes lordgrinz we were married in US in 2015, wife retained her name .

moved to Thailand in 2017

My marriage license from US does have the gold leaf apostille attached to it (expensive and time consuming to get) ,made no difference to officer . The letter from US embassy, expensive trip and time consuming also . Irrelevant to this woman. I have no answer for being treated like this . The wife had to do the arguing, and she nearly had a nervous breakdown! Later outside she was adamant that she had enough, never go back in that office again. I’ve already started greencard process for the wife , we both had enough.

So long Thailand 👋🏾

[brianthainess]

16 hours ago, Dan O said:

And what you wrote is not accurate. The regs clearly nducate the imm officers can ask for additional documents as they deem necessary so you claiming the have to "go by the written book" clear indicates that. 

yep. it's on the list.

[Dan O]

4 hours ago, Kul1 said:

Yes lordgrinz we were married in US in 2015, wife retained her name .

moved to Thailand in 2017

My marriage license from US does have the gold leaf apostille attached to it (expensive and time consuming to get) ,made no difference to officer . The letter from US embassy, expensive trip and time consuming also . Irrelevant to this woman. I have no answer for being treated like this . The wife had to do the arguing, and she nearly had a nervous breakdown! Later outside she was adamant that she had enough, never go back in that office again. I’ve already started greencard process for the wife , we both had enough.

So long Thailand 👋🏾

Why didn't you ask to speak to the head imm officer? Problem would have easily been solved. 

Edited February 29 by Dan O
Spelling

[Dan O]

5 hours ago, Sydebolle said:

..... and then they are surprised when the number of alien retirees residing in the land is dwindling. No other country I ever heard of would treat alien (net spenders of money) like that. But then again, where else would you employ those thousands of absolutely brainless p1rkkcs? 

What can help sometimes is to take the wife along so she can see on a one-on-one basis, what kind of alien-hating b"ç%"3s are playing so ever-important! More than once I heard the Thai missus losing it and gave the semi-divine behind the desk and protective acrylic shield (against all those nasty alien bugs) her opinion - not to be forgotten by the officers ...... 

Not sure where your seeing that retirees are leaving in any significant amount. Covid had an impact but that was a one off situation.

All countries have immigration laws and also allow for the officers to use their discretion. Very few countries are as lenient about tourist visitors making repetitive visits and extensions as Thailand does. Bringing the wife is a good idea for interpreting but if you think that arguing with an imm officer is smart then I question your thinking.    

[oldcpu]

15 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Other than what you presented above, we also present our Kor Ror 22, and her Surname change each year. But just in case (a year later) I went ahead and got our Marriage Certificate from the USA authenticated by the US State Department (Apostille/Authentications), then had it legalized through the Thai Embassy in Washington D.C. and then stamped at MFA here at Chaengwattana.

 

 

Were you able to get a Kor-22 BEFORE doing all of that ?  For myself (my Thai wife and I were married in Canada) I could only get the Kor-22 AFTER first having my passport 'officially' translated to Thai, the marriage certificate 'officially' translated to Thai, have translations and copy of marriage certificate certified by Canadian Embassy in Bangkok, then taken to Thai MFA (ministry of foreign affairs) in Bangkok for certification, and only AFTER that taken to local city hall in Phuket, where marriage was registered and I was able to get the Kor-22. 

 

So if you were able to get a Kor-22 before doing all that, I clearly over did it in my approach.

 

Fortunately, my no longer being on a Type-OA visa, I no longer need to go for extensions of my permission to stay based on marriage (and hence Kor-22 no longer needed).

 

It would surprise me if an immigration office would reject an updated Kor-22 (where I think some immigration offices require the Kor-22 to be updated every year for extensions of a permission to stay based on marriage).

Edited February 29 by oldcpu

[Kul1]

38 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Why didn't you ask to speak to the head imm officer? Problem would have easily been solved. 

If you think going over this woman's head would have resulted in the supervisor reversing her decision, that my documents are not legit ?

Well hope you maintain that cheery optimism , Ive never seen a Thai happy about losing face , ever .

Edited February 29 by Kul1

[Dan O]

There's a polite and correct way of approaching this situation and asking to speak to the supervisor to get clarification of the proper documents and a wrong way. You seem to be focused on the wrong way. The whole mystique of losing face is lost on many foreigners as ever situation doesn't have to result in "losing face" , if you even really know what that means. 

[lordgrinz]

7 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

Were you able to get a Kor-22 BEFORE doing all of that ?  For myself (my Thai wife and I were married in Canada) I could only get the Kor-22 AFTER first having my passport 'officially' translated to Thai, the marriage certificate 'officially' translated to Thai, have translations and copy of marriage certificate certified by Canadian Embassy in Bangkok, then taken to Thai MFA (ministry of foreign affairs) in Bangkok for certification, and only AFTER that taken to local city hall in Phuket, where marriage was registered and I was able to get the Kor-22. 

 

So if you were able to get a Kor-22 before doing all that, I clearly over did it in my approach.

 

Fortunately, my no longer being on a Type-OA visa, I no longer need to go for extensions of my permission to stay based on marriage (and hence Kor-22 no longer needed).

 

It would surprise me if an immigration office would reject an updated Kor-22 (where I think some immigration offices require the Kor-22 to be updated every year for extensions of a permission to stay based on marriage).

 

My wife did the Kor Ror 22 and Surname change before I even applied for a Visa back in early 2016, using only the state (Massachusetts) issued marriage certificate (Notary sealed) and a translated copy, not sure if she also used a copy of my Passport info page. The only thing I did when I got here was to get the Affidavit, for Immigration extension purposes, from the American Embassy in Bangkok stating the following:

"I ______________________ married_________ at the address of __________________ in the town of __________ in the state of ____________________
on the date of _________________ ,the ceremony of marriage was administered by the Justice of the Peace and acting Town Clerk ______________."

 

 And like said, a year later I went through the process of getting the Apostille/Authentication, because I wasn't sure if the marriage documentation would ever be questioned in the future, so far no problems. We were also told by my IO we don't need an updated Kor Ror 22 because my wife changed her Surname to mine, otherwise they would have asked for one.

[lordgrinz]

12 hours ago, Kul1 said:

Yes lordgrinz we were married in US in 2015, wife retained her name .

moved to Thailand in 2017

My marriage license from US does have the gold leaf apostille attached to it (expensive and time consuming to get) ,made no difference to officer . The letter from US embassy, expensive trip and time consuming also . Irrelevant to this woman. I have no answer for being treated like this . The wife had to do the arguing, and she nearly had a nervous breakdown! Later outside she was adamant that she had enough, never go back in that office again. I’ve already started greencard process for the wife , we both had enough.

So long Thailand 👋🏾

 

Did you get the Apostille legalized at a Thai Embassy in the US? Plus, I think the Gold seal is the state Apostille, you would still need to get it authenticated by the US Secretary of state(which when they are done is a bonded/riveted together multi-paged document), I believe the Secretary of State was John Kerry in 2015. Then bring that back here to the MFA and have them certify the US Thai Embassy signature?

 

My full Apostille/Authenticated Marriage documents have an original notarized (embossed seal) marriage certificate, a letter from the Secretary of the Commonwealth (Massachusetts) with his Gold Seal applied verifying the signature of the Notary, then it has the top off-white/Manila letter from the US State Department (embossed seal) with the US Secretary of States signature certifying the Massachusetts seal, then a red and blue stamped seal from the Thai Embassy in Washington DC with Signature on the Top riveted page from the US State department. The backside of that top page has the MFA stamp certifying the signature of the Thai Embassy in Washington DC. So three pages riveted together with multiple certifications by people attesting to all of the signatures and seals.

[john donson]

not looking forward to my soon extension trip to the hellhole of Samut Prakarn, with nasty lady at counter 8...

 

IO can ask for more papers... sadly, pushing for bribe or agent use, indirect bribes...

 

google ratings speak for themselves.... 

[ChaiyaTH]

15 hours ago, Kalorymetr said:

They treat you like dogs. Why even stay here if unwelcome?

That's the question on my mind lately.

[Maestro]

The really amazing thing is that the Mukdahan immigration office has been giving the OP marriage extensions without a KR.22 certificate being submitted for many years. I don't think many other immigration offices would be so accommodating.

[Kul1]

12 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Did you get the Apostille legalized at a Thai Embassy in the US? Plus, I think the Gold seal is the state Apostille, you would still need to get it authenticated by the US Secretary of state(which when they are done is a bonded/riveted together multi-paged document), I believe the Secretary of State was John Kerry in 2015. Then bring that back here to the MFA and have them certify the US Thai Embassy signature?

 

My full Apostille/Authenticated Marriage documents have an original notarized (embossed seal) marriage certificate, a letter from the Secretary of the Commonwealth (Massachusetts) with his Gold Seal applied verifying the signature of the Notary, then it has the top off-white/Manila letter from the US State Department (embossed seal) with the US Secretary of States signature certifying the Massachusetts seal, then a red and blue stamped seal from the Thai Embassy in Washington DC with Signature on the Top riveted page from the US State department. The backside of that top page has the MFA stamp certifying the signature of the Thai Embassy in Washington DC. So three pages riveted together with multiple certifications by people attesting to all of the signatures and seals.

You are correct lordgrunz , my apostille is from my home state . I never had it certified by US Secretary of State . First time I ever heard of such a requirement . Difficult to acquire now from Thailand Im sure . The reality is , the officer wouldn’t even look at the state apostille and license. Just zero negotiations . You must have thai license or certificate from Thai Embassy, with Thai seal , nothing else will be accepted. Thanks for your help and advise .

[lordgrinz]

1 hour ago, Kul1 said:

You are correct lordgrunz , my apostille is from my home state . I never had it certified by US Secretary of State . First time I ever heard of such a requirement . Difficult to acquire now from Thailand Im sure . The reality is , the officer wouldn’t even look at the state apostille and license. Just zero negotiations . You must have thai license or certificate from Thai Embassy, with Thai seal , nothing else will be accepted. Thanks for your help and advise .

 

Yeah, they have no way to verify a US territorial state document, other than going the full route of legalization through all the channels. I had my brother send all my documents back and forth to all the entities, below is a link to the procedure for legalization. You did the state part already, just a few more steps (US State Department, US Thai Embassy, MFA), though time consuming. If you have someone in the states to help with all the USPS priority tracked mailing, then they could get you the rest of the way, then the MFA you can do yourself from Thailand. Don't get too discouraged. 

 

https://newyork.thaiembassy.org/en/page/legalization?menu=61ea69ddf85ab7598d722da2

 

https://washingtondc.thaiembassy.org/th/page/certify-us-documents

Edited March 1 by lordgrinz

[Kul1]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Yeah, they have no way to verify a US territorial state document, other than going the full route of legalization through all the channels. I had my brother send all my documents back and forth to all the entities, below is a link to the procedure for legalization. You did the state part already, just a few more steps (US State Department, US Thai Embassy, MFA), though time consuming. If you have someone in the states to help with all the USPS priority tracked mailing, then they could get you the rest of the way, then the MFA you can do yourself from Thailand. Don't get too discouraged. 

 

https://newyork.thaiembassy.org/en/page/legalization?menu=61ea69ddf85ab7598d722da2

 

https://washingtondc.thaiembassy.org/th/page/certify-us-documents

I’ll follow your advise thanks 🙏 , get the required docs upon my arrival in US .

not much I can do now , just wait for wifes green card approval. 

until then I’ll have to border bounce every 3 months to Savann 

no big deal , just fills up passport quickly.

 

[CAY]

Female boss ? Must be the same I have !

 

[richard_smith237]

It happens very rarely here in Thailand, but sometimes we get that person who just decides, no... they don't like you and will make things difficult... It just happens and if you're the sort of person to roll through life without issues, then its more like them, with the issue and not you.

 

- If I were the Op, just go back a different day and try to see a difference officer. or,

- Ask to see someone more senior (although if a smaller office there is a risk they'll stick together on this issue).

 

 

 

 

---------

 

Years back my Wife and I went to the local Amphur to officially sign our Marriage documents, But, the Amphur officer (female) was not in a good place, she was rude and basically refused to marry us, we asked for the Boss and she refused to get him, she refused to give us her name.

It was very apparent that we were getting no where quickly, we simply went to another Amphur office and processed our Marriage Paperwork there and then within 10mins. 

 

Sometimes, people can just awkward buggerrs !!... in this case its a officer in their little fiefdom flexing what little power they have. 

 

[VocalNeal]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:54 AM, Kul1 said:

You are correct lordgrunz , my apostille is from my home state . I never had it certified by US Secretary of State . First time I ever heard of such a requirement . Difficult to acquire now from Thailand Im sure . The reality is , the officer wouldn’t even look at the state apostille and license. Just zero negotiations . You must have thai license or certificate from Thai Embassy, with Thai seal , nothing else will be accepted. Thanks for your help and advise .

 

This happened to a Brt friend of mine recently. He was married in UK 25-odd years ago but doc. not certified by either Brit or Thai and had to get someone in UK to do some running around.  

 

He also couldn't simply get married again in Thailand because already married.

[rickudon]

Before i got married to my Thai wife i was advised best to do it in Thailand. Much simpler and and no need for Embassy verification etc. Just get married at the Amphoe (not a ceremony, just sign some docs), and get a marriage certificate and a Kor ror 2. Then get a new KR 2 each year before extension (issued by amphoe on demand, about 20 baht). No problems with them docs at extension time.