Frozen pension policy turns British expat's dream into a nightmare

[sambum]

2 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU. 

 

Then why are they coming to the UK in their boatloads for "a better way of life"? :- 

 

"Thousands of migrants rescued in Channel, crossings to UK at second-highest on record

By  Emma Wallis Published on : 2023/12/04 Latest update : 2023/12/05

Thousands of migrants have arrived in Britain after crossing the Channel in small boats in the last seven days. Over the weekend, French authorities also rescued over 200 migrants off the coast of Calais. Crossings have hit the second-highest level on record.

Migrant crossings in the Channel over the last few days have increased once more. According to data from the British government, 1,264 migrants reached the English coast after crossing the Channel in small boats between November 26 and December 2."

[sambum]

2 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU. 

The post you replied to:- "Can't give you anymore money because illigal immigrants are very expensive for the budget. You may be a British national but you are overseas and as such a lesser person to those who aren't Brits who have got a leaky boat to the Isles. It's a very, very sad world." 

 

Your reply:- "Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU."

 

So, by your reasoning, the UK is in abetter position to pay their pensionersmore money because they don't have as many immigrants as Germany? Why bring Germany into it anyway? - the post is about the way the British Government treat their pensioners.

[Wiggy]

39 minutes ago, sambum said:

 

Then why are they coming to the UK in their boatloads for "a better way of life"? :- 

 

"Thousands of migrants rescued in Channel, crossings to UK at second-highest on record

By  Emma Wallis Published on : 2023/12/04 Latest update : 2023/12/05

Thousands of migrants have arrived in Britain after crossing the Channel in small boats in the last seven days. Over the weekend, French authorities also rescued over 200 migrants off the coast of Calais. Crossings have hit the second-highest level on record.

Migrant crossings in the Channel over the last few days have increased once more. According to data from the British government, 1,264 migrants reached the English coast after crossing the Channel in small boats between November 26 and December 2."

Germany took in 2.1m in 2022. 

[Wiggy]

9 minutes ago, sambum said:

The post you replied to:- "Can't give you anymore money because illigal immigrants are very expensive for the budget. You may be a British national but you are overseas and as such a lesser person to those who aren't Brits who have got a leaky boat to the Isles. It's a very, very sad world." 

 

Your reply:- "Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU."

 

So, by your reasoning, the UK is in abetter position to pay their pensionersmore money because they don't have as many immigrants as Germany? Why bring Germany into it anyway? - the post is about the way the British Government treat their pensioners.

I brought Germany into it as you implied the reason UK pensioners get a bad deal is due to the amount of money being spent on immigrants. Germany spends far more on immigrants and can also pay a very healthy pension. Why can’t the UK? That’s not by my reasoning, but yours. 

[sambum]

1 minute ago, Wiggy said:

I brought Germany into it as you implied the reason UK pensioners get a bad deal is due to the amount of money being spent on immigrants. Germany spends far more on immigrants and can also pay a very healthy pension. Why can’t the UK? That’s not by my reasoning, but yours. 

 

I think you should have gone to Specsavers - "Dinsdale" made the point you are referring to - NOT ME! 

[FritsSikkink]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:40 PM, orchis said:

I think 2000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_state_pension

The OP says 70 years: "The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP), despite mounting criticism, stands by this policy, asserting that it has been in place for over 70 years."

[FruitPudding]

2 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU. 

 

What's racist about that?

[FritsSikkink]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:19 AM, hotchilli said:

So you know what's going to happen in 24 years from now... smart Alec?

If the rules existed 70 years ago already, you should have known.

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, sambum said:

The post you replied to:- "Can't give you anymore money because illigal immigrants are very expensive for the budget. You may be a British national but you are overseas and as such a lesser person to those who aren't Brits who have got a leaky boat to the Isles. It's a very, very sad world." 

 

Your reply:- "Rubbish, and racist. Germany has far more immigrants and maintains one of the best pensions in the EU."

 

So, by your reasoning, the UK is in abetter position to pay their pensionersmore money because they don't have as many immigrants as Germany? Why bring Germany into it anyway? - the post is about the way the British Government treat their pensioners.

The problem is the NHS is free(ISH) people coming into the UK who have not contributed, is a drain, does not take much working out

[FruitPudding]

53 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

The problem is the NHS is free(ISH) people coming into the UK who have not contributed, is a drain, does not take much working out

 

Exactly.

 

They are basically spending our money on other people. 

 

Why should they?

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Expat68 said:

The problem is the NHS is free(ISH) people coming into the UK who have not contributed, is a drain, does not take much working out

2 other problems: spending a lot on war effort in several countries and rich people moving their money to tax havens and not paying tax in the UK.

[TigerandDog]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:39 PM, dinsdale said:

It's an insane policy. Getting an Australian pension overseas is also insane. Apart from this once again this AI article lacks any editing demonstated in the subheading.

It would seem all foreigners no matter what nationality are "beginning to feel a financial strain due to the UK government's pension freeze policy." 

why do you think getting a n Australian pension overseas is also insane?  As long as you meet the requirements for portability you can easily have your aussie govt pension paid directly to your overseas bank account. Admittedly one of the supplements drops off and the other supplement is the base rate only AND the actual pension rate is paid at full value. I've been receiving my aussie aged pension directly to my Thai bank account for the past 10 years and also receive the pension increases every March & September. So I realy don't understand why you think it's insane.

[dinsdale]

3 minutes ago, TigerandDog said:

why do you think getting a n Australian pension overseas is also insane?  As long as you meet the requirements for portability you can easily have your aussie govt pension paid directly to your overseas bank account. Admittedly one of the supplements drops off and the other supplement is the base rate only AND the actual pension rate is paid at full value. I've been receiving my aussie aged pension directly to my Thai bank account for the past 10 years and also receive the pension increases every March & September. So I realy don't understand why you think it's insane.

Did you get your pension before you came to Thailand?

[TigerandDog]

12 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

Did you get your pension before you came to Thailand?

see the private message I sent you.

[PremiumLane]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:46 AM, jacko45k said:

So the cost to the UK taxpayer of rescuing boat people and accommodating and feeding them is zero, along with the 85,000 asylum seekers from  last year alone......well I never. 

 

Nice strawman, never said that - so what is the cost and how is it bankrupting the UK? 

[PremiumLane]

On 4/27/2024 at 7:12 AM, Presnock said:

same thing is happening in other EU states as well as in the USA where taxes paid for by citizens have to go for the care, housing, schools, etc of the illegals.  Will eventually break the backs of the citizens for sure.  Already the states leading the "take care of the illegal immigrants first" programs are losing hundreds of thousands of citizens each year!  If one reads the news regularly then one would recognize that this is a big problem for the "developed "free" states as China, Russia, N. Korea, Iran, Afghanistan don't have an imigrant problem.  Sorry to intrude on the Brit problem but just wanted to let them know that the problem also exists elsewhere.

 

So what is this cost? So, nothing to do with tax evasion of the rich and corporations that government doesn't have money? Cos that is huge, must be some poor people on boats - and guess who is tell you that? The same lot that dodge the taxes, so well done. 

 

Where did you read that guff about taking care of illegal immigrants first? What policy are you talking about and how is it being implemented? 

[PeeJayEm]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:40 AM, orchis said:

I think 2000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frozen_state_pension

1946

[Goat]

On 4/26/2024 at 6:16 PM, snoop1130 said:

55-year-old Linz Gelthorpe and his 61-year-old wife, Julie, find their dream relocation to Thailand tarnished by unforeseen financial challenges.

Linz might find it easier with a younger Thai wife than old Jules.

Thai wives are a bit more frugal and know how to hunt out the bargains better.

[Presnock]

12 minutes ago, PremiumLane said:

 

So what is this cost? So, nothing to do with tax evasion of the rich and corporations that government doesn't have money? Cos that is huge, must be some poor people on boats - and guess who is tell you that? The same lot that dodge the taxes, so well done. 

 

Where did you read that guff about taking care of illegal immigrants first? What policy are you talking about and how is it being implemented? 

There have been numerous US news articles on the govts of Calf and NY especially NYCity where such things as local public schools closed so that the buildings can be used to house illegal immigrants, in some cities local citizen workers are being furloughed hours weekly so that the funds that would go to their pay can be usd to care for the illegal immigrants.  You probably don't read US news much or you would see these articles.  I am not going to quote day, issue, etc.  If you don't believe me, I don't really care either.  This was part of my upbringing too, I don't lie.  There are many stories of the citizens of Calf and NY fleeing due to the taxes being so high.  Another story - over 600K California workers come across the Mexican border from their homes to work in that state, and then in the evening go back across the border to their homes as homes are too expensive for them to buy in California.  An example - one story says that there are no available houses for sale in San Francisco for less than a million USD.  In NY even, an illegal immigrant is being sought by the police for puting out an media message on "how to squat free on house in NYC:"  These immigrants are squatting on any empty house - even if the owner is just gone for  short time on vacation or the like and these illegals are squatting on that property.  The legal owner cannot just kick them out, as they can fight it in court and can take a long time to be forced out.  On top of that you as the owner (on the contract for utilities (electricity, water, heating etc) you cannot turn off those while the case is adjuticating without being fined yourself!  any damage to the property by the "squatters" has to be paid for by the owner!  These are just a few of the news articles I have read recently.

[VBF]

14 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

16 hours ago, MicroB said:

If you want your full pension, its pretty simple. Go back home. Otherwise, this is a life choice you made, that you knew about when you retired, and what pensioners have known about since 1955.  Its a policy they effectively supported in all those elections they voted in before they retired.

In fact, you are wrong there too,  I only became aware of this rule recently and only because I am a member of this forum.  Whenever I mention this to people I know, they are also unaware of it and the vast majority of them thinks its unfair.

I agree it's unfair of course, and quite illogical but, pray tell me why didn't you bother to find out what the rules were?

I know about this and it doesn't even affect me but I still research the rules.

 

It's not exactly kept a secret https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/rates-of-state-pension   See "You will not get yearly increases if you live outside these countries." so you did indeed make a life choice that you should have bothered to know about.

 

Isn't there a saying that goes something like "Failing to plan = planning to fail"?

[sandyf]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:57 PM, Chongalulu said:

It is not hypothecated,pensions are paid from total taxes, but you do have to contribute NI to qualify. However if unemployed or receiving benefits those contributions are made for you ! 

Not always been the case, I think it was about 30 or so years ago they started to use income tax to top up the NI in respect of the pension liability.

There is a significant amount remaining in the NI fund that under some obscure ruling that cannot be touched, quite unbelievable.

Whe I started my pension in 2012 I had 48 years and one incomplete years of contributions, last 3 and a bit were credits even though I was not registered as unemployed or on benefits.

[MangoKorat]

1 hour ago, VBF said:

I agree it's unfair of course, and quite illogical but, pray tell me why didn't you bother to find out what the rules were?

The answer to that lies in your sentence - because its illogical.  Why would I think such a rule existed?  Its unjustified and as I've stated throughout - pensioners who leave the UK actually save the country money.

 

When I left school I began paying tax and national insurance on my wages.  I don't ever think anyone told me why, its just something that is implied - that in return, the state will provide you with healthcare, finacial assistance should you fall out of work or become disabled.  There will be many rules associated with those benefits and I doubt that most learn of them until they actually need a particular benefit.

 

When you take out a private pension you are provided with reams of paperwork containing the terms and conditions applicable.  No such paperwork is given when you begin paying national insurance, its just deducted from your wages or you pay in at your year end if you're self employed.

 

Outside this forum and within the expat community that I know in Thailand, nobody that I've discussed this rule with was/is aware of it.

 

Had it been something that was enacted recently, such 'terms and conditions' would be in the news and given the current UK government - I would be on the lookout for this type of thing.  I cite for example, the current Conservative Party who have just enacted an immigration bill in Parliament that states that Rwanda is a safe country - because THEY SAY IT IS. I am 'on my guard' when the current government propose or bring out any new laws - no longer can you expect ot take British Justice for granted.

 

Pension rules were brought about well before I was born, until discovering this rule, with a couple of clear exceptions, I have never discussed them, nor has anybody discussed them with me. As I say, its simply implied that once you reach retirement age, you will receive a pension.

 

The exceptions I refer to are the changes to the retirement age and the amount of pension - both of which are brought to the public's attention through the news as and when they change.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

Complete twoddle!

 

If you stay in the UK they have to pay out the full state pension.  If you have no private pension you remain under the tax threshold. So a pensioner living in Thailand on today's full state pension would not pay tax nor would the same pensioner living in the UK.

 

Both groups, provided they have no other income DO NOT PAY UK TAXES.

 

Furthermore, pensioners living abroad don't cost the UK thousands of pounds each year in medication, hospital costs and doctor's appointments. The UK government should give people who choose to retire abroad more money, not less.

 

'Their isn't the money to pay for overseas pensioners' my ar5e, they'd have to pay it if you remained in the UK so what's the damned difference?

I agree with most of your post but you are wrong on the tax, I wasn't a particular high wage earner and my state pension is over the tax threshold.

Don't forget that those on an occupational pension were having that pension boosted by being contracted out of SERPS. This tends to distort what is seen as the state pension.

Many in Thailand will be receiving a pension that was partially funded by NI and is index linked, another factor in the injustice.

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, MicroB said:

Why does the UK government have to do anything about? Because its fair? Out of pity?

Only a couple of weeks ago the PM was on the box saying they have an obligation to right the wrongs of the past, ommitting to say only when it suits the government.

If there had never been any complaints about injustice then there would still be slavery etc etc.

The majority are apathetic to injustice, until it affects them.

[MangoKorat]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I agree with most of your post but you are wrong on the tax, I wasn't a particular high wage earner and my state pension is over the tax threshold.

Don't forget that those on an occupational pension were having that pension boosted by being contracted out of SERPS. This tends to distort what is seen as the state pension.

Many in Thailand will be receiving a pension that was partially funded by NI and is index linked, another factor in the injustice.

Basic state pension is £169.50 per week - £8814 per year.

 

Full state pension is £221.20 per week - £11502 per year.

 

The current tax threshold is £12570 per year.

 

If you receive over £12570 per year in pension you are clearly on an enhanced pension or have a private pension.

 

I just don't see what is fair about the frozen pension rule or why it was ever enacted in the first place.  However, given that the vast majority of MP's (of any flavour) are well off types - even billionaires, such a rule won't matter to them will it?

[sambum]

2 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

 

Nice strawman, never said that - so what is the cost and how is it bankrupting the UK? 

 

From a UK Parliament Hansard article regarding The Illegal Migration Bill - essentially not taking into account the legal migrants:- 

 

"The Illegal Migration Bill is critical to stopping the boats. ...........................The asylum system currently costs £3.6 billion a year and £6 million a day in hotel accommodation, but that is not the true cost of doing nothing. As this impact assessment shows, the cost of accommodating illegal migrants has increased dramatically since 2020. If these trends continued, the Home Office would be spending over £11 billion a year, or £32 million a day, on asylum support by the end of 2026. In such a scenario, the Bill would only need to deliver a 2% deterrence in arrivals to enable cost savings."

[MangoKorat]

19 hours ago, VBF said:

Then you presumably didn't stay in UK for the minimum required 6 months

See  https://aseannow.com/topic/1325999-frozen-pension-policy-turns-british-expats-dream-into-a-nightmare/?do=findComment&comment=18875192

 

As far as I know, there is no 6 month requirement, you simply have to establish that you are back in the UK permanently - i.e. have a checkable address, bank account, register with a doctor etc.  However, there is no legal definition of 'permanent' - your plans can change as you so wish.  I believe the 6 month thing is just something that's been kicked around and as with a lot of stories that are passed from person to person, it's become 'law' - law without foundation.

 

Therefore, once you establish a degree of permanence and receive your pension increases, as far as I know, you can change your plans and move abroad again. You would of course, not receive any future increases after you leave.

[sandyf]

13 minutes ago, MangoKorat said:

Basic state pension is £169.50 per week - £8814 per year.

 

Full state pension is £221.20 per week - £11502 per year.

 

The current tax threshold is £12570 per year.

 

If you receive over £12570 per year in pension you are clearly on an enhanced pension or have a private pension.

 

I just don't see what is fair about the frozen pension rule or why it was ever enacted in the first place.  However, given that the vast majority of MP's (of any flavour) are well off types - even billionaires, such a rule won't matter to them will it?

Fairly obvious you are not fully aware of how the state pension evolved. You refer to basic an Full as though they are different versions of the same thing, the reality is there are pre 2016 pensions and post 2016 pensions. You are using the rhetoric the government wants to promote, helps the argument that pensions have risen.

What is called the basic state pension is only a component of the pre 2016 pension. My state pension is made up from 5 components, the earliest additional component is Graduated Pensions, something that many will never have heard of.

1975 brought about a revolution in the pension system with the introduction of SERPS, what people receive as a state pension revolves around their working life since 1975. There is little doubt that those that gained the most were those in an occupational pension at the time. They became contracted out with part of their NI contribution going into the occupational pension. Individuals like myself weren't allowed to contract out until 1989 and by the time I became eligible it was too late. The pre 2016 state pension can be one of 3 scenarios, Fully contracted out -  the basic state pension with possibly some Graduated pensions, No contracting out - the total of all pension components that existed during your working life, or a mixture of the 2. It is a complicated calculalation based on a split NI arrangement and there was never any government indication on how it was done. Those that contracted out had the same amount of NI taken from their wages but part went to the government and part into therir private pension. Those of us that gave all of it to the government under their legislation are now paying the penalty under different legislation from the same government.

The directors of a private pension scheme would have been locked up.

[sambum]

6 hours ago, Wiggy said:

Germany took in 2.1m in 2022. 

 

Irrelevant.

[MangoKorat]

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Fairly obvious you are not fully aware of how the state pension evolved. You refer to basic an Full as though they are different versions of the same thing, the reality is there are pre 2016 pensions and post 2016 pensions. You are using the rhetoric the government wants to promote, helps the argument that pensions have risen.

What is called the basic state pension is only a component of the pre 2016 pension. My state pension is made up from 5 components, the earliest additional component is Graduated Pensions, something that many will never have heard of.

1975 brought about a revolution in the pension system with the introduction of SERPS, what people receive as a state pension revolves around their working life since 1975. There is little doubt that those that gained the most were those in an occupational pension at the time. They became contracted out with part of their NI contribution going into the occupational pension. Individuals like myself weren't allowed to contract out until 1989 and by the time I became eligible it was too late. The pre 2016 state pension can be one of 3 scenarios, Fully contracted out -  the basic state pension with possibly some Graduated pensions, No contracting out - the total of all pension components that existed during your working life, or a mixture of the 2. It is a complicated calculalation based on a split NI arrangement and there was never any government indication on how it was done. Those that contracted out had the same amount of NI taken from their wages but part went to the government and part into therir private pension. Those of us that gave all of it to the government under their legislation are now paying the penalty under different legislation from the same government.

The directors of a private pension scheme would have been locked up.

 

 

Fair enough, I am aware that pensions used to be a lot more complicated than they are now - superannuation ect. However, its still a fact that your average working bloke today will either receive a Basic State pension or Full State Pension and therefore will not be liable for any tax.

 

Those on Basic State Pension (subject to savings limits etc.) can have that topped up through Pension Credit - I believe that top up brings their pension to Full State Pension level.  Pension Credit is a means tested benefit and cannot be claimed by those living abroad. In fact there are rules that state the claimant can't spend more than four weeks per year outside the UK.  I have no problem with that - its a means tested benefit that is there to reflect the cost of living in the UK.