2 minutes ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Please list the date that Ukraine and NATO crossed your mythical "red line" by making Ukraine a member of NATO.  

 

  What?  Ukraine isn't a member of NATO?  Huh.  

 

 

 

The 2008 Bucharest NATO summit. 

 

That was when NATO disclosed that they would allow Ukraine to become a NATO member.

 

Putin forcefully argued against that, but was ignored.

 

At that point it became clear to Russia, that  all the American, German and NATO promises that NATO would not expand eastwards were not worth the paper they were written on.

1 hour ago, KhaoHom said:

 

As I said before... 

 

Everything you post is wrong. You're not correct sometimes or a little bit off - you have no grasp of reality whatsoever. 

 

Putin was forced into making the first public move.

 

Blinken had admitted there were long since weapons systems in place, on the ground.

 

This is in addition to the 2014 CIA backed color revolution.

 

You really ought to read more.

That's proper BS, comrade. Like proper Russian talking points. Makes you wonder.....

30 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

The 2008 Bucharest NATO summit. 

 

That was when NATO disclosed that they would allow Ukraine to become a NATO member.

 

Putin forcefully argued against that, but was ignored.

 

At that point it became clear to Russia, that  all the American, German and NATO promises that NATO would not expand eastwards were not worth the paper they were written on.

 

  Again, read sloooooowly......please list the date that Ukraine and NATO crossed your mythical "red line" by making Ukraine a member of NATO.  

 

  What?  They didn't?  So I guess Putin wasn't ignored, was he?  

 

  So much for that pathetic excuse for an argument.  Next?

1 minute ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  Again, read sloooooowly......please list the date that Ukraine and NATO crossed your mythical "red line" by making Ukraine a member of NATO.  

 

  What?  They didn't?  So I guess Putin wasn't ignored, was he?  

 

  So much for that pathetic excuse for an argument.  Next?

 

Perhaps you need to have a look what happened. in 2008 NATO said it would admit Ukraine as a member. The only reason it has not is because Putin has taken out the axe.

 

If he hadn't done that, Ukraine would now be a member of NATO.

 

 

I suppose Trump does like Putin, because Putin wants land grab and so does Trump....

 

Trump wants Canada as the 51st state, and take over Greenland come to mind...........

 

Yeeeh, dictators both............

2 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Perhaps you need to have a look what happened. in 2008 NATO said it would admit Ukraine as a member. The only reason it has not is because Putin has taken out the axe.

 

If he hadn't done that, Ukraine would now be a member of NATO.

 

 

 

  So from 2008-2022, Ukraine could have joined NATO, according to world renowned historian "Cameroni". 

 

  Did "Putin take out the axe" to stop them then?  Nope.  Did they join?  Nope.

 

  But, according to you, finally they were getting around to it in 2022 so Putin was forced to invade.  Got it.  

 

  (Note: The story you have just read is fictional.  Some names have been changed to protect the ignorant.)

Russia has been bullying Ukraine since the days of Stalin,he starved  1 million to death and moved many to Siberia for cheap labor

2 hours ago, bannork said:

Well out to lunch.

Yep.....that's why he is also on my ignore list!! Has been for years!

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

were not worth the paper they were written on.

same as the agreement Russia signed back in 1994 at the Budapest meeting... Putin is a savage without any scruples or principles or respect for human life to achieve what he wants, remember 2008 in Georgia under the pretext of protecting civilians 

 

On the night of August 8, 2008, russia invaded Georgia. Under the pretext of "protecting civilians" in South Ossetia, russian troops crossed the border, launched airstrikes on Georgian cities, and launched a ground offensive. This was the culmination of decades of tension that had been brewing since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

3 hours ago, xylophone said:

Agree, that's why I've had him on IGNORE for a long time now!!

and that makes 2 of us

Putin can't stand it that Ukraine looks to the West and wants to join the EU.

It terrifies him that the Russian population will want the same.

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

He chose to invade AFTER he had for YEARS set up a red line and clearly stated that making Ukraine a NATO member is beyond the red line.

 

He wasn't listened to.

 

That's when he chose to invade.

what rights does Putin has to tell Ukraine what to do, where to go, whom to allow in Ukraine, Putin can only control his own country, Ukraine is an independent sovereign country that has the right to sign for any treaty they decide it fits their interests as a free nation, nobody should dictate to them what to do 

1 hour ago, Cameroni said:

 

The 2008 Bucharest NATO summit. 

 

That was when NATO disclosed that they would allow Ukraine to become a NATO member.

 

Putin forcefully argued against that, but was ignored.

 

At that point it became clear to Russia, that  all the American, German and NATO promises that NATO would not expand eastwards were not worth the paper they were written on.

 

2008 Bucharest NATO summit  NATO welcomed Georgia's and Ukraine's aspirations for membership and agreed that these countries "will become members of NATO", but a Membership Action Plan (MAP) was not offered due to opposition, primarily from Germany and France.

 

NATO-Russia Relations: Russian President Vladimir Putin attended for talks, expressing opposition to US missile defense plans and potential NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. 

 

 Russia's concerns about NATO's eastward expansion, particularly regarding Ukraine and Georgia, influenced the discussions and the decision on their MAP applications. 

 

2008 bucharest nato summit - Google Search

 

 

40 minutes ago, transam said:

I suppose Trump does like Putin, because Putin wants land grab and so does Trump....

 

Trump wants Canada as the 51st state, and take over Greenland come to mind...........

 

Yeeeh, dictators both............

reminds me of the """ birds of the feather flock together""" Trump is so infatuated with Putin way of governing that he wants to do the same in the USA

Blimey, I thought Trump said having US companies involved in mining operations in Ukraine would prevent any Russian attack.

Then look what happens.

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has accused Russia of purposely targeting American investments in Ukraine.

 

“In Mukachevo, the Russians actually burned down an enterprise, by the way, an American enterprise, a manufacturer of electrical equipment," Zelensky said in a video address on Thursday (21 August).

 

“We believe that it was a targeted strike specifically on American property here in Ukraine, on American investments," he said.

 

Zelensky accuses Russia of deliberate attack on US-owned factory

 

Come on Donald, don't take this lying down. Sanctions on anyone buying Russian oil, now!

 

Just now, bannork said:

Blimey, I thought Trump said having US companies involved in mining operations in Ukraine would prevent any Russian attack.

Then look what happens.

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has accused Russia of purposely targeting American investments in Ukraine.

 

“In Mukachevo, the Russians actually burned down an enterprise, by the way, an American enterprise, a manufacturer of electrical equipment," Zelensky said in a video address on Thursday (21 August).

 

“We believe that it was a targeted strike specifically on American property here in Ukraine, on American investments," he said.

 

Zelensky accuses Russia of deliberate attack on US-owned factory

 

Come on Donald, don't take this lying down. Sanctions on anyone buying Russian oil, now!

 

He did indeed and it was always a very weak theory to begin with.

Trump won't do anything in response.

He's a total disgrace.

2 minutes ago, bannork said:

Blimey, I thought Trump said having US companies involved in mining operations in Ukraine would prevent any Russian attack.

Then look what happens.

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has accused Russia of purposely targeting American investments in Ukraine.

 

“In Mukachevo, the Russians actually burned down an enterprise, by the way, an American enterprise, a manufacturer of electrical equipment," Zelensky said in a video address on Thursday (21 August).

 

“We believe that it was a targeted strike specifically on American property here in Ukraine, on American investments," he said.

 

Zelensky accuses Russia of deliberate attack on US-owned factory

 

Come on Donald, don't take this lying down. Sanctions on anyone buying Russian oil, now!

 

now let's wait for Trump reaction, it's going to be interesting as he always claimed to protect ALL american interests around the world

Just now, Mavideol said:

now let's wait for Trump reaction, it's going to be interesting as he always claimed to protect ALL americans

Don't hold your breath.

In a survey by The Economist/YouGov, when asked How much of Ukraine's territory are you willing to transfer to Russia after the war?, 68% of respondents answered none.

 

Another 21% of respondents were undecided, 5% were in favor of transferring part of Ukrainian territory, 2% were in favor of half, and 1% were in favor of most.

 

Two-thirds of Americans oppose giving Russia Ukrainian land. At the same time, 27% of Americans consider Ukraine an ally, and 38% consider it a friendly country. Only 12% consider Ukraine an unfriendly country, and 4% consider it hostile.

 

  Two-thirds of Americans oppose giving Russia Ukrainian land

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

 

  So from 2008-2022, Ukraine could have joined NATO, according to world renowned historian "Cameroni". 

 

 

Of course, why else do you think NATO announced that Ukraine would become a member in 2008?

 

1 hour ago, TheAppletons said:

Did "Putin take out the axe" to stop them then?  Nope

 

Yes he did. After Putin was ignored in the 2008 Bucharest summit, where he forcefully once again articulated that NATO had crossed a red line by announcing Ukraine would become a member, Putin became far more aggressive. Particularly after the pro-Russian government in Ukraine was faced with the CIA led revolution in Ukraine. He first took care of Georgia in 2008 and then Ukraine. With force. Because there was no other way. He had tried to negotiate with the West and  NATO for years, but was just ignored.

 

His war with Ukraine did of course not start in 2022 but in 2014, when Russians took the Crimea by force.

 

The 2008 Bucharest NATO summit was the catalyst because in 2008 Russia invaded Georgia after it became clear NATO lied to Russia.

 

 

1 hour ago, bannork said:

 

2008 Bucharest NATO summit  NATO welcomed Georgia's and Ukraine's aspirations for membership and agreed that these countries "will become members of NATO", but a Membership Action Plan (MAP) was not offered due to opposition, primarily from Germany and France.

 

NATO-Russia Relations: Russian President Vladimir Putin attended for talks, expressing opposition to US missile defense plans and potential NATO membership for Georgia and Ukraine. 

 

 Russia's concerns about NATO's eastward expansion, particularly regarding Ukraine and Georgia, influenced the discussions and the decision on their MAP applications. 

 

2008 bucharest nato summit - Google Search

 

 

 

A Google search will not give the full context. The Bucharest 2008 summit came against the backdrop of years of Americans and Germans and NATO saying that they will not expand eastwards.

 

When NATO announced brazenly in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine will become members that was when the West revealed its hand finally and when Russia realised it had been lied to. 

 

You will note the invasion of Georgia took place in 2008. It was from that point that Putin used a more agressive approach. Because he had tried to negotiate with the West for years and was just ignored and lied to.

22 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

A Google search will not give the full context. The Bucharest 2008 summit came against the backdrop of years of Americans and Germans and NATO saying that they will not expand eastwards.

 

When NATO announced brazenly in 2008 that Georgia and Ukraine will become members that was when the West revealed its hand finally and when Russia realised it had been lied to. 

 

You will note the invasion of Georgia took place in 2008. It was from that point that Putin used a more agressive approach. Because he had tried to negotiate with the West for years and was just ignored and lied to.

The problem for Putin is that all the former Warsaw Pact members wanted to join NATO.

The Soviet Empire crumbled.

Just now, bannork said:

The problem for Putin is that all the former Warsaw Pact members wanted to join NATO.

The Soviet Empire crumbled.

It would not have been a problem if NATO had kept its word and not pursued eastwards expansion.

 

If these countries had been signalled that NATO won't take them then they would not have sought membership.

 

They sought membership because they were told they could.

 

 

4 hours ago, KhaoHom said:

 

You didn't want to hear it four years ago either. Kinda deaf and dumb and dumber.

 

Biden, DEI, COVID, Ukraine, inflation, suppression of free speech, autopen pardons and ten million criminals let into US is on you shi+libs. That's your legacy to wear and own FOREVER 

 

You might be tired if hearing it but we gonna remind you for the rest of your life

B.S. MAGA propaganda....

4 hours ago, KhaoHom said:

 

As I said before... 

 

Everything you post is wrong. You're not correct sometimes or a little bit off - you have no grasp of reality whatsoever. 

 

Putin was forced into making the first public move.

 

Blinken had admitted there were long since weapons systems in place, on the ground.

 

This is in addition to the 2014 CIA backed color revolution.

 

You really ought to read more.

And it's not like there were already Russian troops and weapons in Donbass at that time!

Oh wait!  

2 minutes ago, candide said:

And it's not like there were already Russian troops and weapons in Donbass at that time!

Oh wait!  

 

First Russian troops arrived there in April 2014. Long after NATO had put its hand on the table that they would allow Georgia and Ukraine to join as NATO members.

 

Again, Putin only pursued military actions after 2008, when NATO brazenly admitted it had been lying to Russia all along and Georgia and Ukraine would become members.

17 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

It would not have been a problem if NATO had kept its word and not pursued eastwards expansion.

 

If these countries had been signalled that NATO won't take them then they would not have sought membership.

 

They sought membership because they were told they could.

 

 

What's wrong with offering a helping hand to countries who had just been freed from Soviet armed occupation and tyranny, so that they could remain free and become prosperous? 

7 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

First Russian troops arrived there in April 2014. Long after NATO had put its hand on the table that they would allow Georgia and Ukraine to join as NATO members.

 

Again, Putin only pursued military actions after 2008, when NATO brazenly admitted it had been lying to Russia all along and Georgia and Ukraine would become members.

I was replying to the statement that the U.S. was already giving weapon systems before the Russian invasion. 

2 minutes ago, candide said:

What's wrong with offering a helping hand to countries who had just been freed from Soviet armed occupation and tyranny, so that they could remain free and become prosperous? 

 

The Ukraine war.

 

Dead civilians.

 

That's what's wrong with it.

1 minute ago, candide said:

I was replying to the statement that the U.S. was already giving weapon systems before the Russian invasion. 

 

There were. The Ukrainians and US intelligence collaborated long before the Russian invasion. Way, way, way before it.