http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/28/three-challenges-new-pope

It seems to me that there are three interlocking difficulties for the church. There is crisis in the curia, the Vatican itself. There is a crisis in the clergy. And in the developed world, there is a crisis in the laity.

There is also a strategic problem in that the church must deal with the increasing militancy of Islam in the Middle East, and, beyond that, the rise of China and India. But that doesn't require new thinking, just the application of well-practised principles.

Any loosening of central control would also be fraught with dangers for the church's coherence. A liberal reformer might suffer the fate of a Gorbachev and be swept aside by the forces he unleashed. I suspect that the reform of the curia would be the priority of any non-Italian European, such as Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Austria. But I doubt the electors have any great enthusiasm for the task.

You forget to mention he will be facing a huge scandal about gays in the Vatican going with prostitutes and being subject to blackmail.

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

You forget to mention he will be facing a huge scandal about gays in the Vatican going with prostitutes and being subject to blackmail.

I didn't forget to mention anything... I just transmitted an article from the Guardian.

You forget to mention he will be facing a huge scandal about gays in the Vatican going with prostitutes and being subject to blackmail.

does some hard evidence really exist?

You forget to mention he will be facing a huge scandal about gays in the Vatican going with prostitutes and being subject to blackmail.

does some hard evidence really exist?

It's in the infamous red-leather-covered dossier, naam. I think that's part of what the article mentions as 'crisis in the curia'.

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

It was an ideal, 'giving oneself entirely to God'. Some can keep the vow; many, if not most, can't.

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

It was an ideal, 'giving oneself entirely to God'. Some can keep the vow; many, if not most, can't.

Being a Trappist would indeed be easier, provided one were allowed to write 'How much?' on a piece of paper.

crisis in the curia?

Crisis in the queeria more like!

When is the Vatican going to make the top 10 gay spring break holiday destinations list! And where are those secret saunas?

Cardinal Keith O'Brien thinks the ban on catholic priests marrying could be lifted in the next pope's lifetime. The fools should realise the line read celebrate not celebate.

From the OP:

"...there are three interlocking difficulties for the church.

There is crisis in the curia, the Vatican itself.

There is a crisis in the clergy.

And in the developed world, there is a crisis in the laity."

So, we've narrowed it down to three problem areas: Bishops, Priests and Parishoners.

Apart from that, it's all ship-shape and Bristol-fashion...

Perhaps there's also a problem with the heathens, the non-believers, as well, trying to influence the church from outside. There seems to be plenty with an interest in doing down the Catholic church

But apart from that, I don;'t know what roblems you mean

SC

As I posted on the other thread, the next Pope will be Italian.

They've missed out on the past two elections, they'll not allow this to pass them by as well.

And with regard to the problems that the media have started puffing about (again), they will be put before special committees and results will be published (although heavily redacted) during the next century, or not, as the case may be.

As I posted on the other thread, the next Pope will be Italian.

They've missed out on the past two elections, they'll not allow this to pass them by as well.

And with regard to the problems that the media have started puffing about (again), they will be put before special committees and results will be published (although heavily redacted) during the next century, or not, as the case may be.

No, I think the next Pope will be Latin-American.... with the Austrian and Filipino Cardinals as outside bets.

There seems to be more than the usual sense of urgency about the Church's problems nowadays... but then that wouldn't be difficult.

I would think that by now they would realize that celibacy is not workable and the pedophiles will no longer be protected.

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

The idea is that sexual energy and spiritual energy is the same. So, to make it simple, if you are not celibate, you cannot become enlightened.

I'm a Buddhist, not a Catholic, but I understand that the Pope needs to be an Enlightened One within his religion.

Some humor about picking the new Pope, from Bill Maher on Real Time:

I don't have a lot of hope for the new Pope. because you know I gotta say the cardinals are kinda like republicans, they always say they want a fresh new face and they end up picking a creepy old weirdo ... speaking of Mitt Romney ...

I reckon he won't speak English....so there is some hope for most of us on here....

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

The idea is that sexual energy and spiritual energy is the same. So, to make it simple, if you are not celibate, you cannot become enlightened.

I'm a Buddhist, not a Catholic, but I understand that the Pope needs to be an Enlightened One within his religion.

That sounds like a Buddhist concept, not a Christian one. I think the Christian idea was so that one can devote oneself entirely to God's work, without outside distractions, or other claims on one's attention. Great in theory, but many men seem unable to keep to their vow.

I reckon he won't speak English....so there is some hope for most of us on here....

Somehow, most of the ones they choose seem to be amazing linguists! How many languages did John Paul II give the 'urbi et orbi' blessing in? From memory, at least 60.

one of the big misconceptions of the Catholic Church was the introduction of "celibacy and chastity" in the "dark ages" by some misguided clowns people in power. celibacy is against nature and against God's will... assuming there is a God.

The idea is that sexual energy and spiritual energy is the same. So, to make it simple, if you are not celibate, you cannot become enlightened.

I'm a Buddhist, not a Catholic, but I understand that the Pope needs to be an Enlightened One within his religion.

That sounds like a Buddhist concept, not a Christian one. I think the Christian idea was so that one can devote oneself entirely to God's work, without outside distractions, or other claims on one's attention. Great in theory, but many men seem unable to keep to their vow.

That's the same. You can't be devoted to God (Enlightened) when you are devoted to someone else, and a slave to your passions.

Personally, I think that repression seems to be not working, so perhaps they need to look at it from the opposite angle, and appoint a porn star as pope.

SC

I think it is very close, except that there's no God in Buddhism.

But I think we could do without the porn star!

I think it is very close, except that there's no God in Buddhism.

But I think we could do without the porn star!

Spirituality is spirituality regardless. The God thing is a matter of faith only. It seems a little narrow-minded to rule a porn star out so promptly. How much thought have you given it? I'm only trying to be helpful....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/26/crimes-catholic-church-not-our-names

This is a vigorous, and very sad, indictment of the Catholic church by a Catholic lay person. I wish I did not have to agree with it. But it gets to the heart of what is wrong with the church, and where the cure has to be. It's not about doctrine; the Church stands firm on its beliefs. It's on the organisation of the Church, and of how the clergy disregard the laity who are, for sure, the footsoldiers of the Church militant.

If this is not in the minds and decision of the Cardinal electors, we are in even worse trouble than we thought.

It's always seemed to me that there are two versions of religion. There's the simple version where Jesus or Buddha pitches up and sets down a simple set of rules that can be followed individually and there's the complicated version where men (and it is men) have to turn them into some grand complicated organisation with councils, merit making, indulgences and all the other tosh that man invents. All you need to be a good Christian/Buddhist is the Sermon on the Mount or the Dhammapada . Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind. Simples!

PS I use Jesus and Buddha as I'm a little familiar with both but I suspect that their over-complication is not unique.

It's always seemed to me that there are two versions of religion. There's the simple version where Jesus or Buddha pitches up and sets down a simple set of rules that can be followed individually and there's the complicated version where men (and it is men) have to turn them into some grand complicated organisation with councils, merit making, indulgences and all the other tosh that man invents. All you need to be a good Christian/Buddhist is the Sermon on the Mount or the Dhammapada . Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind. Simples!

PS I use Jesus and Buddha as I'm a little familiar with both but I suspect that their over-complication is not unique.

Jesus summarised his teaching as follows:-

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God....Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matt.22.37-40)

But Man is an animal which forms communities and organisations as a function of its humanity, and it is natural for him to form Christian communities (or Buddhist or Muslim) with leaders and rules and so on. This can easily get overdone, but one thing it does tend to do is to maintain a consistent line of belief. Look at how fragmented the Christian Church became after the Reformation... and at what has happened to Buddhism in the hands of Thai animists. And Shias and Sunnis and what have you are at daggers drawn (literally).

Basically I'm agreeing with you, Endure, except that there are not two different versions; there are two aspects of the same version. If everybody does their own thing, the result is anarchy. I actually made much the same distinction as you in my last post.

It's always seemed to me that there are two versions of religion. There's the simple version where Jesus or Buddha pitches up and sets down a simple set of rules that can be followed individually and there's the complicated version where men (and it is men) have to turn them into some grand complicated organisation with councils, merit making, indulgences and all the other tosh that man invents. All you need to be a good Christian/Buddhist is the Sermon on the Mount or the Dhammapada . Avoid evil, do good, purify the mind. Simples!

PS I use Jesus and Buddha as I'm a little familiar with both but I suspect that their over-complication is not unique.

Jesus summarised his teaching as follows:-

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God....Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matt.22.37-40)

But Man is an animal which forms communities and organisations as a function of its humanity, and it is natural for him to form Christian communities (or Buddhist or Muslim) with leaders and rules and so on. This can easily get overdone, but one thing it does tend to do is to maintain a consistent line of belief. Look at how fragmented the Christian Church became after the Reformation... and at what has happened to Buddhism in the hands of Thai animists. And Shias and Sunnis and what have you are at daggers drawn (literally).

Basically I'm agreeing with you, Endure, except that there are not two different versions; there are two aspects of the same version. If everybody does their own thing, the result is anarchy. I actually made much the same distinction as you in my last post.

'Aspects' is the word I was looking for but couldn't think of. It's maintaining a consistent line of belief that cause all the problems in the first place. As soon as someone believes that theirs is the true version that's when the trouble starts. That's why I admire the Society of Friends. They have no hierarchies and no proselytizers. They just do their own thing. Even a Buddhist monk can't give a dhamma talk without being asked three times to do so by his 'congregation'. Buddhists seem to do everything in threes.

Resist...resist.....don't lower the tone.....<whew>

I loathe organised religion and am sceptical about what happens to all the congregation cash week in and year out.

What do they do with all that money?

Fix the roof apparently.

Fix the roof apparently.

Didn't they do some ceiling work in the Vatican many years ago?

Fix the roof apparently.

Didn't they do some ceiling work in the Vatican many years ago?

That'll be needing redecorating now; maybe a bit of Artex