@UG, it's not

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jews+against+israel

Merely on Youtube you will find pages and pages of Jews protesting against the existence of the state of Israel. This is not confined to the Haredi, it goes across the board.

Really? YouTube? So what? That does not prove anything at all about "millions of Jews" and you have no way of even knowing who is posting that crap.

My concerns are not misplaced, the situation in Israel is a human rights catastrophe.

Blame that on the people who started the hostilities, who have consistently targeted innocent civilians from the beginning and who have refused to make peace ever since. Blame it on the people who elected a terrorist organization to represent them in peace talks that the terrorist organization - Hamas - refuses to even consider.

Spare me the fashionable "it's both sides fault" propaganda. You can not do your utmost to commit genocide over and over again and then think your enemy is going to treat you like a welcome guest while you refuse to do anything to improve the situation that you have created yourself.

That's a load of crap, you've just tried to shut down the debate by playing an anti-semite card against me. That's typical of people that don't have an answer `to a valid point.

You don't like the idea that there are millions of Jews who are anti the state of Israel, and you know that's true. You also don't like the idea that there are millions of Jews who are contemptuous of the way many Jewish settlers and politicians run rough shod over the human rights of others.

You would prefer than no one should know that there is this division among the Jewish community.

None of that is true.

I'm not going to dignify your anti-semite comment. I didn't call you an anti-semite. How would I know whether you are or aren't?

There are NOT millions of Jews who are against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. I provided strong supporting evidence for you, and you respond with a shrill personal attack. All you've got is your ridiculous, I talked to a few Jewish "friends" story. You have no statistics to support your assertion and you won't find any because they do not exist, so instead, go personal. That's the ticket.

AGAIN, yes, I would say the MAJORITY of Jews in the world have some or major ISSUES with specific policies of the Israeli government, including Israelis. (Me too.) That is NORMAL for most any country.

No, you are wrong again. I have no problem with the world knowing there is debate among Jews about Israeli policies. Yes there are deep divisions within Israel. Sounds familiar to Americans, to Thais, and so many other nations. Why shouldn't the democracy of Israel have internal divisions? Does that mean all those countries shouldn't exist? What I do have a problem with is an agenda to promote a bald faced and totally unsupportable LIE that a huge percentage ("millions") of Jews in the world are against the very existence of Israel.

If you're going to talk about this subject, please stick to the subject area rather the personality games that are your specialty.

Your position is absurd, anyone reading my posts will see I did not launch into a shrill personal attack. I have merely pointed out that there are millions of Jews who are against the existence of Israel, and that caused you to accuse me of being an anti-semite.

" Euro types like you ".......

There is no point denying that many Jews believe the existence of Israel is wrongful and anti-scriptural. These people are universally anti Zionist and they represent by far and away the fastest growing sect within the Jewish community.

Do you deny that?

I don't agree with what Helen Thomas said but she's right about one thing, the third rail. Discussion is not allowed.

Again, there are NOT millions of Jews who are against the existence of the state of Israel.

I never said there weren't some or many.

My research over the years shows about 10 percent of global Jews are against the existence of the state of Israel.

Clearly in the USA and Israel, the largest populations of Jews by far, the percentage would be OVER 90 percent in support of the continued existence of ISRAEL.

10 percent of global Jews is one million and change.

NOT millions by any stretch of the imagination to anyone who can do simple math.

One million is ONE million.

The word millions is plural implying at least TWO million and rhetorically suggests even more.

Not sure what the point is, obsessing about anti-Zionist Jews.

If someone espouses anti-Zionism better to just openly say you are and why.
No need to seek cover with the small minority of fringe Jews who are also anti-Zionist.

Zionist here defined liberally as supporting Jewish nationalism in Israel, that's all.

About the trend of toxic anti-Israel sentiment in Europe, that is REAL and easy to document.

Be clear I am not saying that all anti-Israel criticism is tainted with anti-semitism. I have NEVER said that. Ever.

Obviously, some is, some isn't, and often it's quite difficult to tell which is which.

I agree people should be allowed to debate and criticize Israeli policies without being called anti-semitic.

Within civilized parameters. If you're going to say Jews go back to Poland that's hate speech very similar to American bigots who say Africans go home to Africa.

In other words if when people are criticizing Israel and they bleed into obvious anti-semitism (which actually happens quite a lot) there is nothing wrong with calling that out.

Really? YouTube? So what? That does not prove anything at all about "millions of Jews" and you have no way of even knowing who is posting that crap.

My concerns are not misplaced, the situation in Israel is a human rights catastrophe.

Blame that on the people who started the hostilities, who have consistently targeted innocent civilians from the beginning and who have refused to make peace ever since. Blame it on the people who elected a terrorist organization to represent them in peace talks that the terrorist organization - Hamas - refuses to even consider.

Spare me the fashionable "it's both sides fault" propaganda. You can not do your utmost to commit genocide over and over again and then think your enemy is going to treat you like a welcome guest while you refuse to do anything to improve the situation that you have created yourself.

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media. As always, we need to filter through the BS but the notion that the Jewish community is united in it's support for Israel is a lie.

I don't know why you are talking about Hamas and the like, I don't support terrorism of any sort and I find the constant attacks upon civilians in Israel to be reprehensible. I think it's tragic that Israel had to build the security wall and just as tragic that Ariel Sharon was struck down, I think he was on the right path.

The only thing I know for sure is that the anti Zionists Jews are growing in strength, the demographic of the Jewish community will alter substantially over the next generation as the Zionist birth rate is dropping dramatically while the anti Zionist birth rate is going through the roof.

Personally, I thought that this thread was about the threat to our civil liberties from the vilification of people for their personal opinions. I thought all the other threads in OuttheBox were about the state of Israel.

SC

Well according to my sources 10% would represent 1.3 million Jews, and that's assuming it's only 10%. So now we can agree that we are in the millions, my point stands.

Many people would be staggered to know that there are any Jews against the state of Israel.

Personally, I thought that this thread was about the threat to our civil liberties from the vilification of people for their personal opinions. I thought all the other threads in OuttheBox were about the state of Israel.

SC

Actually it was about what a great woman Helen Thomas was.

I agree people should be allowed to debate and criticize Israeli policies without being called anti-semitic.

Within civilized parameters. If you're going to say Jews go back to Poland that's hate speech very similar to American bigots who say Africans go home to Africa.

In other words if when people are criticizing Israel and they bleed into obvious anti-semitism (which actually happens quite a lot) there is nothing wrong with calling that out.

I agree with that. That go back to Poland comment was just ridiculous.

Well according to my sources 10% would represent 1.3 million Jews, and that's assuming it's only 10%. So now we can agree that we are in the millions, my point stands.

Many people would be staggered to know that there are any Jews against the state of Israel.

1.3 is million(s)?!?

PLURAL millions?

Really?

Is that Scots maths?

I'm really asking because if you guys think 1 is plural that's a fascinating cultural difference.

I don't know one informed person who would be "staggered" that there is a minority of Jews against the existence of Israel.

Certainly not any Jews would be staggered.

You seem to think it's a big deal so spread your youtube videos all you like. What you think is big news is actually no news at all.

I do find it hilarious that so many non-Jewish critics of Israel feel such a strong need to find cover with some random Jews. How about speaking for YOURSELF??

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

I see very little point in bickering back and forth between people who have no intention of conceding their viewpoint.

If it helps put it in context, some people think rugby league is a simpleton's game for ill-educated troglodytes from the mines, and some people think that rugby union is a boring game dominated by arcane penalties. And I've never seen anyone change their minds on those threads, despite many people on the thread enjoying both sports.

SC

Well according to my sources 10% would represent 1.3 million Jews, and that's assuming it's only 10%. So now we can agree that we are in the millions, my point stands.

Many people would be staggered to know that there are any Jews against the state of Israel.

1.3 is million(s)?!?

PLURAL millions?

Really?

Is that Scots maths?

I'm really asking because if you guys think 1 is plural that's a fascinating cultural difference.

I don't know one informed person who would be "staggered" that there is a minority of Jews against the existence of Israel.

Certainly not any Jews would be staggered.

You seem to think it's a big deal so spread your youtube videos all you like. What you think is big news is actually no news at all.

I do find it hilarious that so many non-Jewish critics of Israel feel such a strong need to find cover with some random Jews. How about speaking for YOURSELF??

I thought more than one should be plural; like 1.01.

But this isn't a semantics argument its a semitics argument

SC

I thought more than one should be plural; like 1.01.

But this isn't a semantics argument its a semitics argument

SC

Cute pun.

I was educated this way:

800,000 ... less than one million

1,000,000 ... one million

1,500,000 ... less than two million, so not millionS

2,0000 ... two million so you can start to say millionS

Am I wrong?

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

Luckily I don't fall in to that category.

I refer you once again to me sitting observing conversations between the father and daughter, I find it endlessly fascinating. Just as I find it fascinating hearing my pals discuss the problems they are having due to the fact that they married Gentiles.

One of my best pals was telling me that when his Gentile mother died the Rabbi totally ignored him and his siblings, the Rabbi approached his father in his home and spoke to him. His father was was obviously in a state of grief asked the Rabbi why he had ignored his children as they were also in need of counselling.

When the Rabbi answered the father threw him out.

I get my information first hand, and I ask what my friends think. Each and every one of them is generous with their time and in explaining their views. Listening to their views shows me that much I see written here is absurd.

Incidentally all of my Jewish friends are Zionist, but none of them deny the threat of the growth of the anti Zionists. The divisions are already damaging and it's going to get worse.

That Rabbi was an a-hole. No rabbi I have ever personally known would act that way but my background is American REFORM. I hate those right wing fanatic fundamentalist rabbis too just like I detest extreme fundamentalists of any religion. Jews have lots of divisions, but again, we are OVERWHELMINGLY united in the support of the continued existence of the state of Israel. You see, Jews are a PEOPLE. It's more than rabbis or religion.

I'm aware that Rabbi was an a-hole. I was delighted with the actions of the father. To be honest I could still see the hurt and confusion on the face of my friend, he couldn't believe that he had been treated so.

Incidentally I am aware that Jews are people you know.

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

Luckily I don't fall in to that category.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

Luckily I don't fall in to that category.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

Luckily I don't fall in to that category.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

Youtube is a valuable resource, people can access information there that is denied to them through the mainstream media.

They can also find all kinds of lies and nonsense that support totally unsubstantiated opinions that they want to believe

Luckily I don't fall in to that category.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

I was only giving one example of where I listen to what goes on in the lives of my Jewish friends, I didn't know I was expected to write down ad verbatim every single piece of knowledge they have imparted to me.

You seem to be excessively irritated by the fact I've pointed out that there are millions of anti Zionist Jews. Why? Is it a secret that should never be told?

Again, there are NOT millions of anti-Zionist Jews, there are many, but they represent a small minority of global Jewry. Its wrong to spread unsubstantiated distortions that there are "millions" of anti-Zionist Jews when there aren't.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

I wonder if he's actually blind to the impression he gives with that kind of story.

I can tell you a story about a Christian that did a mean, idiotic thing. SO WHAT!?!

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

You're wildly exaggerating.

The Israeli government remains sadly very right wing.

You might be confusing reform minded Israeli Jews, those willing to take risks to make peace, with radicals against the very existence of Israel.

Again, all Jews are aware of radical anti-Zionist Jews.

If you think its your mission to tell the world there is a small minority of global Jews who are anti-Zionist, be my guest. Have a great time doing it.

You seem to have this fantasy this is big news. It is not news at all.

But it you insist on telling LIES about the massive size of this anti-Zionist Jewish faction, don't object to people calling you on it.

Again, with the Jewish cover.

It would be more interesting and honest if you spoke for YOURSELF instead of with youtube clips of eccentric Jews.

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

You're wildly exaggerating.

The Israeli government remains sadly very right wing.

You might be confusing reform minded Israeli Jews, those willing to take risks to make peace, with radicals against the very existence of Israel.

Again, all Jew are aware of radical anti-Zionist Jews.

If you think its your mission to tell the world there is a small minority of global Jews who are anti-Zionist, be my guest. Have a great time doing it. Makes not difference to me. Again, with the Jewish cover.

It would be more interested and honest if you spoke for YOURSELF.

I'm not so sure about that. What do the actions of one idiot of a Rabbi have to do with Jews in general and what does it have to do with Zionism? You keep insisting that you are not anti-semitic while coming up with ridiculous generalizations about Jews that have little to do with reality.

I wonder if he's actually blind to the impression he gives with that kind of story.

I can tell you a story about a Christian that did a mean, idiotic thing. SO WHAT!?!

Are you annoyed that I pointed out a real life story that affected one of my friends enough that he discussed it with me?

Have I to censor these stories? You should be thinking more along the lines of these stories should be told so that we Gentiles come to understand better the tensions within the Jewish community.

I think it would be better if you read HAARETZ for a few months and then after that, come back with a background of actually being better informed. Irrelevant anecdotal stories about a-hole rabbis we can really live without. There are rip-off Jewish car mechanics too ... who knew? Growing up a Jewish friend of my Dad who was also a car mechanic turned out to be running a massive METH lab. Those Jews!

http://www.haaretz.com/

Well we are estimating it's somewhere between 1 and 1.3 million, which is a lot more than the zero figure that some people believe.

I've already mentioned the growth of this demographic, and they seem to have a disproportionate influence due to the Israeli electoral system.

You're wildly exaggerating.

The Israeli government remains sadly very right wing.

You might be confusing reform minded Israeli Jews, those willing to take risks to make peace, with radicals against the very existence of Israel.

Again, all Jew are aware of radical anti-Zionist Jews.

If you think its your mission to tell the world there is a small minority of global Jews who are anti-Zionist, be my guest. Have a great time doing it. Makes not difference to me. Again, with the Jewish cover.

It would be more interested and honest if you spoke for YOURSELF.

It's not all about you.......

As for myself I can understand why the anti Zionists regard Israel as being anti scriptural but a dissolution of Israel can now not be allowed to happen. The sooner the two state solution is agreed the better.

I'm not stupid though, I know there are people on both sides that will do everything in their power to make sure it doesn't happen, and if it does come to pass, it won't mean an end to terror attacks.