Absolutely, all I did was point out that there were millions of anti Zionist Jews, ( but I'll just go with JT's figure of a million now ) and I got vilified.

Oh well.

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Since theBlether and JT agree on the figure, it would be churlish of you or I to dispute it. I would think that any such argument would serve only to detract from the major issue - that the current media climate makes it impossible for people to honestly express unpopular opinions.

But you carry on obfuscating and quibbling over data, if that's your aim

SC

Why would I dispute not it? I have said that it was nonsense since it was brought up earlier in the thread. There is no "data". The truth is that there is no way to know such a thing, so why try to claim a certain figure?.

I had a surprisingly and remarkably pleasant trip to the USA, and the only distressing thing about it was a current affairs show reviewing the then current trial by media of a celebrity (I don't recall nor do I care whom - perhaps Helen Thomas) for admitting that in the past she shared the racist opinions that were the norm at that time. I found that Orwellian in its perniciousness, and a reminder that we need to constantly review our own moral compass lest we are steamrollered by fashion, media and those around us into unconscious prejudice and intolerence.

Of course, most on this thread will say "That only applies to Bluenose Scotch bigots like you, Cowboy; I'm allright", because as I've said often enough , nobody changes their mind on the internet, but perhaps one day people will review their prejudices and tolerances

SC

You're clearly speaking of this lady. I have no respect for her horrible cooking style regardless of her racism or lack thereof. Seriously she is no loss to civilization. Helen Thomas was.

And she looks like an ogre as well. But regardless of how she cooks, she's entitled to her own opinion, regardless of whether we agree with it or not, and we should not condemn people for being normal in their time.

Sadly, there are too many amongst us who would force conformancy of thought as well as deed on their neighbours. If this was accompanied by jack-boots then it would be easier to take offence at, but when it is dressed up as 'tolerance' and 'civil rights' it is all the more invidious for its stealthy approach

SC

I have feeling that I would like Paula Deen's food. I could care less if she used a racial slur one time in the last 30 years. Where I grew up, pretty much everyone used the N-word in everyday conversation - other than me and members of my family of transplanted Massachusetts liberals.

I have feeling that I would like Paula Deen's food. I could care less if she used a racial slur one time in the last 30 years. Where I grew up, pretty much everyone used the N-word in everyday conversation - other than me and members of my family of transplanted Massachusetts liberals.

A Massachusetts liberal, there's an "epithet" you seem to have moved on from...!

Indeed.

"If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." - usually attributed to Winston Churchill.

Indeed.

"If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." - usually attributed to Winston Churchill.

What he actually said was:

"Show me a young Conservative and I will show you someone with no heart. Show me an old Liberal and I will show you someone with no brains".

Though of course he was referring to the political parties rather than the labels/epithets in use today in the US. Churchill did not really live up to this statement having defected from the Conservative party to the Liberals at the more advanced age of 30, but did at least switch back to the Conservatives aged 51. Ever the opportunist...

His best comment on moving back to the Conservatives was:

"Anyone can rat. But to re-rat takes a certain ingenuity."

There is hope for you yet UG if you have the necessary ingenuity....!

Yeah but the false quote has made great propaganda for the right wing for decades now. Wouldn't want to spoil their fun with the truth, would we?

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Not from my imagination, but let's hear Jingthing's interpretation of Anti-Zionist Jews.

Then let's hear a figure from him as to how many they're are.

Over to you JT.

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Not from my imagination, but let's hear Jingthing's interpretation of Anti-Zionist Jews.

Then let's hear a figure from him as to how many they're are.

Over to you JT.

Not playing anymore.

My existing posts, repeated requests to you to confirm agreed on definitions ALL IGNORED and not even acknowledged, are more than enough to stand as is.

No you are not required to reply to requests for replies but in this case where the entire discussion was based on some shared agreed upon definitions, it became IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of coherent discussion without such a reply.

These kind of games are for wee toddlers.

(And lawyers.)

Delete please.

Not from my imagination

The conclusive evidence is gossip from your Jewish friends and a number of YouTube videos. How could anyone argue with that?

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Not from my imagination, but let's hear Jingthing's interpretation of Anti-Zionist Jews.

Then let's hear a figure from him as to how many they're are.

Over to you JT.

Not playing anymore.

My existing posts, repeated requests to you to confirm agreed on definitions ALL IGNORED and not even acknowledged, are more than enough to stand as is.

No you are not required to reply to requests for replies but in this case where the entire discussion was based on some shared agreed upon definitions, it became IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of coherent discussion without such a reply.

These kind of games are for wee toddlers.

(And lawyers.)

I can't be bothered.

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Not from my imagination, but let's hear Jingthing's interpretation of Anti-Zionist Jews.

Then let's hear a figure from him as to how many they're are.

Over to you JT.

Not playing anymore.

My existing posts, repeated requests to you to confirm agreed on definitions ALL IGNORED and not even acknowledged, are more than enough to stand as is.

No you are not required to reply to requests for replies but in this case where the entire discussion was based on some shared agreed upon definitions, it became IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of coherent discussion without such a reply.

These kind of games are for wee toddlers.

(And lawyers.)

You probably meant "wee bairns" in Blether-speak...

If anti-Zionist Jews is all about Haredim here's a very good insight albeit inti the Haredim community in London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8326339/Inside-the-private-world-of-Londons-ultra-Orthodox-Jews.html

On the opposition to Zionism which has been part of the "kulturkampf" for the majority of Haridim, the root cause of opposition is that a state of Israel that is man made rather than created by god is heretical therefore cannot be supported.

As Haridim today number some 1.5 million worldwide and the majority oppose Zionism, that would seem to provide a significant minority ( and the fastest growing demographically) of Jewry in opposition to a secular based state of Israel.

God help us from fundamentalists.....!

Actually many support Zionism, many support Israel, but do not support Zionism and many do not support either one. They do not all share the same opinion.

Their main beef is the concern that secular nationalism might replace the Jewish faith and the observance of religion, and the view that it was forbidden for the Jews to reconstitute Jewish rule in the Land of Israel before the arrival of the Messiah. In other words, they are as bunch of religious nuts, but after what happened in Nazi Germany many softened their stance towards a Jewish homeland.

I can't be bothered.

Ditto.

Yeah, thankfully Israel is not a full on theocracy. In my view, the religious faction has too much power there. I would prefer a totally secular Zionist movement and state for the Jewish PEOPLE while of course also being a home for Jewish religious people as well. Theocratic governments in general, of any flavor, are bad news.

Hadedim may be for a theocratic Israel rather than a secular one, but in actually they've got a PARTLY theocratic Israel anyway, and the majority are certainly not against the existence of Israel as a Jewish state in some form.

I agree. I am not against religion, but it should have litle to with governmant.

Sorry, but your figure comes directly from your imagination and you have not been able to back it up with any evidence. A far as I can tell, you and Jingthing are using different definitions of the word, but there is no way that he knows either.

Not from my imagination, but let's hear Jingthing's interpretation of Anti-Zionist Jews.

Then let's hear a figure from him as to how many they're are.

Over to you JT.

Not playing anymore.

My existing posts, repeated requests to you to confirm agreed on definitions ALL IGNORED and not even acknowledged, are more than enough to stand as is.

No you are not required to reply to requests for replies but in this case where the entire discussion was based on some shared agreed upon definitions, it became IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of coherent discussion without such a reply.

These kind of games are for wee toddlers.

(And lawyers.)

You probably meant "wee bairns" in Blether-speak...

If anti-Zionist Jews is all about Haredim here's a very good insight albeit inti the Haredim community in London.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8326339/Inside-the-private-world-of-Londons-ultra-Orthodox-Jews.html

On the opposition to Zionism which has been part of the "kulturkampf" for the majority of Haridim, the root cause of opposition is that a state of Israel that is man made rather than created by god is heretical therefore cannot be supported.

As Haridim today number some 1.5 million worldwide and the majority oppose Zionism, that would seem to provide a significant minority ( and the fastest growing demographically) of Jewry in opposition to a secular based state of Israel.

God help us from fundamentalists.....!

That was a fascinating link, thanks very much for that

But not wholly accurate.

This was a profile of a part of the community around Stamford Hill, but there are many other Jews living in the area who do not follow this ultra-frum creed. I was raised in the area for some of the early years of my life, returned there as a teenager. But I was never accepted into this particular grouping and, quite frankly, never wanted it. I am the child of a mixed marriage, both parents brought up in fairly strict households, one Orthodox, one Anglo-Catholic. So I am really mixed up.

But the article was written by the rabbi, because he took over the reporter's guidance system and allowed him to see and discuss only one side of a fifteen-faceted coin.

But not wholly accurate.

This was a profile of a part of the community around Stamford Hill, but there are many other Jews living in the area who do not follow this ultra-frum creed. I was raised in the area for some of the early years of my life, returned there as a teenager. But I was never accepted into this particular grouping and, quite frankly, never wanted it. I am the child of a mixed marriage, both parents brought up in fairly strict households, one Orthodox, one Anglo-Catholic. So I am really mixed up.

But the article was written by the rabbi, because he took over the reporter's guidance system and allowed him to see and discuss only one side of a fifteen-faceted coin.

Of course, but in the wider view the majority of Haridim are anti-Zionist and with their impressive demographic trend line will not only come to represent a significant, if not majority, component of the Jewish community in the UK but will become a considerable player within Israel itself.

Nonsense about fabricated Muslim demographics allowing them to take over in Western Europe is laughable in comparison to this, and if theocracy and fundamentalism is not your bag, it's not the Muslim variety that might be causing concern in the future.

I can't see the Haridim changing views on Zionism in the UK or Israel. Their views on Israel just seem crazy to most people. As with most things Jewish, they have a variety of opinions. Some support Zionism. Some do not. Some support Israel, but not Zionism. Some do not support either one. The more fanatical ones want to wait for the "savior" to come and lead them back to Israel - even though they are already there. Many feel that Israel should not have been won by secular forces, but they also feel none of the land should be given to non Jews. They are not concerned about Palestinian Arab claims.

In a modern world, who is going to take these religious fanatics seriously?

You seem to be selective in your interpretation UG. It is not fanatical to believe that the scriptures have not been fulfilled.

You seem to be selective in your interpretation UG. It is not fanatical to believe that the scriptures have not been fulfilled.

I'm sure many 'twelvers' within the Iranian regime would agree.

You seem to be selective in your interpretation UG. It is not fanatical to believe that the scriptures have not been fulfilled.

Anyone believing any religious texts LITERALLY is fanatical.

I can't see the Haridim changing views on Zionism in the UK or Israel. Their views on Israel just seem crazy to most people. As with most things Jewish, they have a variety of opinions. Some support Zionism. Some do not. Some support Israel, but not Zionism. Some do not support either one. The more fanatical ones want to wait for the "savior" to come and lead them back to Israel - even though they are already there. Many feel that Israel should not have been won by secular forces, but they also feel none of the land should be given to non Jews. They are not concerned about Palestinian Arab claims.

In a modern world, who is going to take these religious fanatics seriously?

I quite agree that the Haridim are classic fundamentalists focused on revelation rather than interpretation of the word of god, and that they come in almost 57 different varieties.

What is of concern is the demographic angle. While at the moment nothing more than a vocal minority, that status is likely to change over the next few decades as their numbers grow exponentially. That could have a serious political, social and strategic impact on Israel and Jewry in general.

You seem to be selective in your interpretation UG. It is not fanatical to believe that the scriptures have not been fulfilled.

Anyone believing any religious texts LITERALLY is fanatical.

Not necessarily fanatical , but certainly fundamentalist.