Thai Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers

[LevelHead]

This lack of funds to buy the rice vote up north is the chum in the water that is smelled by the opposition. A golden chance to prove to the Issan voters exactly what kind of duplicitous slime they have been voting for. All the promises were kept over the years by financial legerdemain and trickery, but now the bottom line has good deeply red and those in Issan not deeply red are beginning to realise the reality not the rosy pictures painted by the propaganda machine.

So now we get a do or die rally to remove the PTP puppets from the controls,

and prevent them 'Taking from Somchai to pay Boonchaing'...

This goes two ways in my opinion :

Way 1, a clean and non-corrupt opposition party who are seen as supremely Democratic and not at all biased to Palm Oil and Rubber in the south, whose leaders have not been exposed to lots of land scandals and palm oil scandals and all sorts, whose leaders have not been charged with murder for sending the Army in with live ammo to kill protestors, rises up and is seen by Isaan as the saviours.

Way 2, Isaan folk see the delays as all being caused by self serving, corrupt, anti-Democracy, poll boycotters who have sold their souls to the Amart time and time again. They blame everything on these people and come out and strongly vote for PTP.

Given the parties that do not want elections it seems that Way 2 is the way. If Way 1 was the way the Dems would not be having a boycott.

As for the rice payment protests, there has to be some, for if there were no protests there would be no resentment to lead to way 1 or way 2.

Its also great future PR for PTP if they win the election. They can say with no rice payments and rice farmers having protests they still won the election, which proves the rice subsidy is not a vote buying tool. Thanks Suthep

The trouble for the Democrat Party is that they must find a way to delay the election, for if they believe Way 1 is happening they need to reset the election process back to Day 1 so they can now sign up for the election, now that their friends have blocked out all ways to payments to the farmers and made payment to the farmers late.

So the friends of the Democrat Party will be pushing for reset, or delay and reset, so they can now all sign up to contest the election. But of course, the Constitution does not allow for a delay and PTP are following the rules. Whooops............

Just my opinion on things.

[LevelHead]

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

The scam part is that the "channel" has huge leaks.

There will always be leaks, even Singapore has corruption cases where government money is siphoned off by people.

It is therefore not the subsidy that is the problem, its those abusing the system, and they should be investigated and charged.

But people should not slam the subsidy, its the greed of some people who abuse the system, and those people wear yellow, red, white, blue, green, brown, grey, black and multicolour shirts.

But if you want the country to grow, if you want the poor to become wealthier and so increase GDP growth in the provinces you have to endure some of this leaking.

Just my opinion

Edited January 15, 2014 by LevelHead

[ggold]

Did PTP not say farmers would be paid in 15th of Jan?

Thaksin ... you had better get you check book ready ... 555

Yes, Niwatthumrong said in a press conference late last month that all payments would be made by 14 January. It is too bad that all of the Thai politicians are such amateurs. The PTP had a chance to move a progressive agenda forward, but instead they blew it due to lack of experience and hubris.

but instead they blew it due to lack of experience and hubris.

No it was greed and criminality. Where did that money disappear to, the rice farmers waiting since October for payment! sounds like the money was long gone before the caretaker government continued what they were doing while in government!

[mikebell]

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

Does Suthep know this? Why is this not on Thai TV? Headlines in all newspapers? Why aren't the populace taking to the streets in protest ....oh.

[LevelHead]

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

Does Suthep know this? Why is this not on Thai TV? Headlines in all newspapers? Why aren't the populace taking to the streets in protest ....oh.

There are no figures released, a lot of the data is not in public view.

Therefore your claims on figures are misleading in my opinion.

You cannot claim to know how much of a deficit the scheme has run, so please, clearly state the figure is just your fantasy opinion only. And the money is not lost, it has not disappeared. You mean only to say the scheme has run at a loss as the money has been distributed across rice farmers, millers, dealers etc............ so the money is not LOST as you claim, its not vanished.

[whybother]

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

The scam part is that the "channel" has huge leaks.

There will always be leaks, even Singapore has corruption cases where government money is siphoned off by people.

It is therefore not the subsidy that is the problem, its those abusing the system, and they should be investigated and charged.

But people should not slam the subsidy, its the greed of some people who abuse the system, and those people wear yellow, red, white, blue, green, brown, grey, black and multicolour shirts.

But if you want the country to grow, if you want the poor to become wealthier and so increase GDP growth in the provinces you have to endure some of this leaking.

Just my opinion

We're not talking about small leaks here. Why should you endure any leaking? You should set up schemes that minimise leakage. This isn't one of those schemes.

[Scamper]

The Pheu Thai administration is now between a rock and a hard place. No room for pity. They've made the bed. It's just not fit for sleeping in, that's all. After all the programmes of expedience, which produced such dependence and electoral support, it's now all catching up with them. Pheu Thai is now facing something new.

It's called being found out.

[Robby nz]

mikebell, on 15 Jan 2014 - 12:42, said:

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

Does Suthep know this? Why is this not on Thai TV? Headlines in all newspapers? Why aren't the populace taking to the streets in protest ....oh.

There are no figures released, a lot of the data is not in public view.

Therefore your claims on figures are misleading in my opinion.

You cannot claim to know how much of a deficit the scheme has run, so please, clearly state the figure is just your fantasy opinion only. And the money is not lost, it has not disappeared. You mean only to say the scheme has run at a loss as the money has been distributed across rice farmers, millers, dealers etc............ so the money is not LOST as you claim, its not vanished.

Why is there no data in public view ?

This is the Govt spending public (taxpayer) money, why is there no (honest) accounting ?

Your expert opinion no doubt. Which is of course not a fantasy.

The scheme was supposed to be to help farmers not millers, dealers, etc.

If the money is not lost where is it ? see question on accounting.

[rubl]

This lack of funds to buy the rice vote up north is the chum in the water that is smelled by the opposition. A golden chance to prove to the Issan voters exactly what kind of duplicitous slime they have been voting for. All the promises were kept over the years by financial legerdemain and trickery, but now the bottom line has good deeply red and those in Issan not deeply red are beginning to realise the reality not the rosy pictures painted by the propaganda machine.

So now we get a do or die rally to remove the PTP puppets from the controls,

and prevent them 'Taking from Somchai to pay Boonchaing'...

I'm afraid more are likely to believe that payment delays are all to blame on the Democrat Party and 'their' PDRC and as soon as there is a new, shiny Shinawatra government money will surely come.

[rubl]

Isaan is booming everywhere.

Isaan now has the highest GDP growth in the whole of Thailand. Land prices and house prices are rising fastest in Isaan.

Why do you think the Bangkok elite are jealous ?

This is not a rice scam, it is a rice subsidy. Channeling money to the poor by way of giving them a higher price for their rice. All very simple and subsidies are not illegal. Most governments all over the world use subsidies for various things to keep the masses happy where needed.

The scam part is that the "channel" has huge leaks.

There will always be leaks, even Singapore has corruption cases where government money is siphoned off by people.

It is therefore not the subsidy that is the problem, its those abusing the system, and they should be investigated and charged.

But people should not slam the subsidy, its the greed of some people who abuse the system, and those people wear yellow, red, white, blue, green, brown, grey, black and multicolour shirts.

But if you want the country to grow, if you want the poor to become wealthier and so increase GDP growth in the provinces you have to endure some of this leaking.

Just my opinion

More likely it's the scheme which invited corruption. Payment to middleman, millers instead of directly to small farmers who do the actual planting and harvesting.

BTW with 360/400 billion lost on 660 expenditure over two years I wouldn't want to talk about endure 'some' leaking.

Edited January 15, 2014 by rubl

[smutcakes]

Of all the time it takes for cases to be investigated and never prosecuted by the NACC, the timing of this case is unbelievably convenient. There are 100's of cases from years ago with the NACC, but suddenly, right at this time, they have suddenly found unequivocal evidence of corruption on this one case.....

Looks like the Democrats and the benevolent army Generals have got the courts to do their dirty work again.

[rubl]

Of all the time it takes for cases to be investigated and never prosecuted by the NACC, the timing of this case is unbelievably convenient. There are 100's of cases from years ago with the NACC, but suddenly, right at this time, they have suddenly found unequivocal evidence of corruption on this one case.....

Looks like the Democrats and the benevolent army Generals have got the courts to do their dirty work again.

Have they finally found some? I thought the NACC was still looking?

BTW the NACC is not a court. courts get involved later IF there have been irregularities.

[Thaddeus]

mikebell, on 15 Jan 2014 - 12:42, said:

Country loss on state vs. tax payer money from this idiotic scheme

870.280.000.000 Baht (gone)

Does Suthep know this? Why is this not on Thai TV? Headlines in all newspapers? Why aren't the populace taking to the streets in protest ....oh.

There are no figures released, a lot of the data is not in public view.

Therefore your claims on figures are misleading in my opinion.

You cannot claim to know how much of a deficit the scheme has run, so please, clearly state the figure is just your fantasy opinion only. And the money is not lost, it has not disappeared. You mean only to say the scheme has run at a loss as the money has been distributed across rice farmers, millers, dealers etc............ so the money is not LOST as you claim, its not vanished.

Why is there no data in public view ?

This is the Govt spending public (taxpayer) money, why is there no (honest) accounting ?

Your expert opinion no doubt. Which is of course not a fantasy.

The scheme was supposed to be to help farmers not millers, dealers, etc.

If the money is not lost where is it ? see question on accounting.

I expect that a significant portion of the 'lost money' never existed in the first place (an accountant may disagree)

If I promise to pay you 10 Dollars for a bag of rice, you give me the bag of rice, and then I do not pay you.

What has been lost, 10 Dollars or a bag of rice?

The 10 Dollars never existed and one of us still has a bag of rice.

Of course in this scheme, I expect that real financial transfers have occurred, but how many have made it to the people who were promised it.

[Thai at Heart]

However much has gone missing from the rice scheme, much of it has filtered down to the farmers. The Isaan is booming, largely as a result of it. Now that the baht has weakened and the rice is saleable on the open market, 'Legal Experts' (read Ruling Elite) will decide if the government can sign a long term contract with China. Jealousy of the farmers will probably mean they wont allow it. They'd rather see the government embarrassed by stockpiles that were caused by their own insistence on a strong baht!

Issan is booming --you said, WHERE ?? Much of the money has filtered down to the farmer which farmer, certainly not the little farm man that voted for PTP.

Maybe you are getting mixed up with the giant farmer that has-the big business ones that have benefitted along with the other pilferers.

If anything, this dilly dallying with who us going to be in power as put many big projects in isaan on ice.

I mean would you build a massive industrial estate and subsequent condos if you weren't sure the train line was coming.

In some ways this is a major weakness on the sneaky that business community. They make massive first comer profit by being tipped off, but the whole process relies on political stability and delivery of infrastructure.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[GAZZPA]

Was there ever a purchase order from China ?,or was it more smoke and mirrors,

you can never believe anything Governments say, but this Government beats the lot.

regards Worgeordie

Couldn't agree more. have you also noticed how everything is always under review. So, the loan needs to be reviewed to see if it is legal under a caretaker government! How long does that take, seriously, when the farmers are blocking the roads and they haven't been paid as agreed surely this is top priority even if the answer is no.

I have never seen consistent numbers for this scheme. I have been reading and following for some time now and I still don't understand how much the government / taxpayer is liable for, not even a consistent estimate. Also, there is never any clarity on how much global market share has truly been lost and what the government is going to do to reverse the trend and bring the trade back to Thailand. It is all bad news for sure because if it wasn't it would be all over the press.. The people will all know sooner or later.

So, whether you agree with the scheme or not it all looks very bad for the farmers and Thailand in general.

[SICHONSTEVE]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

They don't know what they're doooing!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Was there ever a purchase order from China ?,or was it more smoke and mirrors,

you can never believe anything Governments say, but this Government beats the lot.

regards Worgeordie

Couldn't agree more. have you also noticed how everything is always under review. So, the loan needs to be reviewed to see if it is legal under a caretaker government! How long does that take, seriously, when the farmers are blocking the roads and they haven't been paid as agreed surely this is top priority even if the answer is no.

I have never seen consistent numbers for this scheme. I have been reading and following for some time now and I still don't understand how much the government / taxpayer is liable for, not even a consistent estimate. Also, there is never any clarity on how much global market share has truly been lost and what the government is going to do to reverse the trend and bring the trade back to Thailand. It is all bad news for sure because if it wasn't it would be all over the press.. The people will all know sooner or later.

So, whether you agree with the scheme or not it all looks very bad for the farmers and Thailand in general.

Not at all!! They think its great, it must be as it is Thaksin's baby and he cares about them lots and lots!!

[Bluespunk]

"Rice sale to China delayed by legal limbo over 'caretaker' powers"

Yeah, right, that's why it's been delayed

Edited January 15, 2014 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

The ministry late last year asked for permission from the EC to sell rice, and the EC appeared to give it the nod in a written response last week. However, Commerce Minister Niwatthumrong Boonsongpaisan said yesterday that the reply did not specify the prices and periods of shipment

It appears Boonsongpaisan is caught in yet another lie about a finalized rice deal.

The EC gives vague guidance (a "nod"?) when the administration needs specific approval as to prices and periods of shipment. If the EC doesn't need to provide such specifics, why doesn't it just say so. But the EC seems very unsure of its own authority all the while it demands to be an integral part of any administration decision. Where is the lie in all this?

This "done deal" was announced some time ago. What sort of deal doesn't include setting prices, order sizes and delivery deadlines?

A stupid one.

[poisonus]

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

When first we practice to deceive.

[Robby nz]

As I have written before, when a Govt is dissolved pending an election it is the responsibility of the finance minister to ensure that there is sufficient funds available for all disbursements that have to be made in the time between the dissolving of the Govt and the swearing in of a new Govt.

This was obviously not done in this case.

[MaiChai]

If they are going to ship the rice over the next year then they won't have the money immediately to pay the farmers? More smoke and mirror's in Thai politics.

[winstonc]

if you remember,when the chinese premier came over last year yingluck was larging it saying that they have a contract for 1 million tons,but it was over 5 years at 200.000 a year and there was no picture of them sitting at a table exchanging contracts and signatures was there.....it was just talk and no deal was ever accomplished i do remember....please correct me if im wrong...also gov 2 gov sales were suspended..because there were none ....

[robblok]

As I have written before, when a Govt is dissolved pending an election it is the responsibility of the finance minister to ensure that there is sufficient funds available for all disbursements that have to be made in the time between the dissolving of the Govt and the swearing in of a new Govt.

This was obviously not done in this case.

The government is incompetent.. the people leading it no more as puppets. It is not like the dissolution of the government came as a surprise. They should have thought about it before and made provisions. But they could not have as they could not get money from anywhere for this scheme.. They needed the infrastructure loan to pay for this. Its all a big ponzi scheme.

[lostmebike]

threatening to escalate the protest to oust the government if their claims are not settled by today.

Good luck with that.

[tingtongteesood]

Any chance to sell part of the rice mountain should surely be taken up as quickly as possible before the buyer changes their mind. Just do it ! !!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Any chance to sell part of the rice mountain should surely be taken up as quickly as possible before the buyer changes their mind. Just do it ! !!

They can't as they don't know the rules!!

[NeverSure]

Does someone actually feel sorry for these farmers? Aren't they the ones who tried to line their own pockets by voting for crooks?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Does someone actually feel sorry for these farmers? Aren't they the ones who tried to line their own pockets by voting for crooks?

Oh!! how I've tried and tried and tried but I just can't get there!!

[quandow]

The farmers expected an elected official to keep his or her word? Soom noom naa