Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[bkk_mike]

There are very different styles of digital nomad.

Two examples;

1. Someone who create websites for his customers in Europe.

(he have customers who give him orders. Actually, a Thai person could do this job too)

2. Someone who trading US stocks in US exchanges.

(he have no customers. Actually he do only online banking and, nobody else could do this job for him)

BTW; can we expect still the outcome of the interview which Thaivisa.com did with a Immigration officer?

You've completely forgotten telecommuters.

i.e. People who work remotely to a job in another country. (I know several computer programmers / contractors where they maybe have to visit the office for meetings every few months, but can work the rest of the time from home.)

But it's not immigration that ever had a problem with "digital nomads", at least if they're in the country on something like a non-O (tourist visa is the only new bit).

The real question is the labour department, as they're the ones that deal with the whole work permit issue, not immigration.

[samran]

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Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

So shut down all tourism because they also do not pay tax for those "services". So what if i "pay tax" as you want mo to do and i get hit by a car. Does the service include medical expenses? Hell no!

Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

Maaaaaan. What are you, like 12 dude?

Get a grip. You pay VAT. Bully for you.

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

So duuude, I know your poo doesn't stink and all, but you are dodging the tax man otherwise. If you want tax free living, I hear Somalia is good this time of year.

[rwdrwdrwd]

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

According to KPMG and PwC, only the portion remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned. Probably due to this part of the code http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

'A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.'

Key phrase being brought into Thailand

This in conjunction with 'Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis.' means that if somebody keeps foreign sourced income offshore until the subsequent tax year, it is not taxable - since it is not earned in the relevant calendar year for tax calculation, it is not a factor in calculating the relevant years PIT.

No dodging about it, it is simply following the rules. AKA good tax planning.

Edited August 22, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[lordblackader]

Re: There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

The Chairman of The Bank of Thailand, Dr. Prasarn Trairatvorakul has an MBA and PhD from Harvard Business School. If you contact his office c/o below, he may be delighted to hear your suggestions on how Thailand might avoid becoming or becoming worse of a digital backwater. You can always take a chance; the worst they can do is ignore you.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Contactus/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

I'll consider taking you up on that.

And also thanks for a constructive response here on ThaiVisa that engages the issue. Not targeted at you, but it's a rarity.

I certainly don't have a PhD from Harvard but I have gone through 2 US focused startups, one that was seriously funded, as well as worked as a journo covering the industry previously so I'm not a spring duck when I talk about it.

[samran]

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

According to KPMG and PwC, only the portion remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned. Probably due to this part of the code http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

'A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.'

Key phrase being brought into Thailand

This in conjunction with 'Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis.' means that if somebody keeps foreign sourced income offshore until the subsequent tax year, it is not taxable - since it is not earned in the relevant calendar year for tax calculation, it is not a factor in calculating the relevant years PIT.

No dodging about it, it is simply following the rules. AKA good tax planning.

Am very familiar with this rule and can show you in the original Thai if you want as I utilise it myself at points of the year.

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/552.0.html

Just didn't want to confuse the 12 year old who reckons VAT is enough and who probably doesn't have sufficient cash flow to do the years seasoning of cash.

Edited August 22, 2014 by samran

[NancyL]

I was at this meeting! Too bad I'VE been busy and missed the OP. The reporter is making a big deal about an off-hand answer to an audience question about tourist can do work on line to handle overseas clients while on holiday in CM. IE checking email, Skype calls. It wasn't a policy change announcement

thats interesting Nancy so the whole premise of this topic was completely flawed from the offset and the reporter is quoting things completely out of context

hardly worth carrying on with this debate then, nothing has changing from what was already known anyway..

That's right, the entire premise is flawed. Sorry I was busy and didn't chime in at the beginning to shoot down the entire thread. And then we wonder why Immigration officials don't want to give interviews to English language media when one little off-hand remark can generate a firestorm of controversy!

It's not like CM Immigration rolled out a new policy -- complete with PowerPoint presentation and photo op, like Hua Hin did with their short-lived and ill-planned press conference about how they'd issue a locally produced I.D. that would substitute for carrying one's passport.

Edited August 22, 2014 by NancyL

[impulse]

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

There it is again. The tripe about "giving up 51% of your company to a Thai"

The idea that you have to "give away 51%" only holds true if you don't want to bother finding one of the thousands of Thais that can and would gladly pay for their 51% with funds, land, property and equipment. Of course, to find them, you have to leave the Expat Ghetto and actually mingle with the natives.

I know dozens of Thais who are extremely entrepreneurial, and would be in the top 1% in annual income in any country they chose. And if I know dozens, that means there are thousands just like them- because I don't get out much.

The "give away 51%" tripe also completely loses sight of the fact that having the right Thai partner can actually smooth things over in every interaction with the government, the banks, the po-po and any Mafioso that may want their cut for nothing. (Caveat- of course, having the wrong partner can kill your business, but that's true anywhere)

And if you can't find something for 2-4 Thais to do, each making a minimum wage of $300 per month, then you're not thinking hard enough- or your time as a company founder isn't worth much. Run errands, chauffeur, do shopping, change the oil, clean the office, walk the dog, watch the kids, clean your socks, wash the car, keep air in the tires,...,... As an alternative, they can just stay home and be on call for your every need.

Those 2-4 employees will cost you less in a year than the lawyer you have to hire just to incorporate prudently back home. And here, your Thai partner will take care of the incorporation. Part of his 51%.

I'd rather have 49% of a thriving business than 100% of a non-starter. The good news is that so many foreigners buy into the "give away 51%" crap, that the competition for Thai investment money is pretty sad. The bad news (for me anyway) is that my contract doesn't allow me to moonlight and I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already here in Thailand. And no desire to stay if the paycheck quits coming.

Edited August 22, 2014 by impulse

[CharlieH]

Posts removed

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[hugolars]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

According to KPMG and PwC, only the portion remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned. Probably due to this part of the code http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

'A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.'

Key phrase being brought into Thailand

This in conjunction with 'Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis.' means that if somebody keeps foreign sourced income offshore until the subsequent tax year, it is not taxable - since it is not earned in the relevant calendar year for tax calculation, it is not a factor in calculating the relevant years PIT.

No dodging about it, it is simply following the rules. AKA good tax planning.

"A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

So staying in Thailand 12 months a year does not make liable to pay tax income made abroad.

[Timwin]

but to answer your question, I have no problem with people wanting to work here legally, and I do know a few people who do work legally in a "sole trading" /remote type situations, but these people have taken the time/trouble and investment to get fully legal, by forming a Ltd Thai company, but thats not want the average "on line" poster wants to hear, they are demanding special treatment wanting somthing for nothing, full of self entitlement and stamping their little feet cos they cant get their own way and thats what I comment on

Working for a big oil&gas company, that does the paper work for you, really does not give you a right to judge freelancers. You have your special treatment with that company, keeping you all comfy in your nice little expat bubble.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Timwin

[MrHammer]

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

There it is again. The tripe about "giving up 51% of your company to a Thai"

The idea that you have to "give away 51%" only holds true if you don't want to bother finding one of the thousands of Thais that can and would gladly pay for their 51% with funds, land, property and equipment. Of course, to find them, you have to leave the Expat Ghetto and actually mingle with the natives.

I know dozens of Thais who are extremely entrepreneurial, and would be in the top 1% in annual income in any country they chose. And if I know dozens, that means there are thousands just like them- because I don't get out much.

The "give away 51%" tripe also completely loses sight of the fact that having the right Thai partner can actually smooth things over in every interaction with the government, the banks, the po-po and any Mafioso that may want their cut for nothing. (Caveat- of course, having the wrong partner can kill your business, but that's true anywhere)

And if you can't find something for 2-4 Thais to do, each making a minimum wage of $300 per month, then you're not thinking hard enough- or your time as a company founder isn't worth much. Run errands, chauffeur, do shopping, change the oil, clean the office, walk the dog, watch the kids, clean your socks, wash the car, keep air in the tires,...,... As an alternative, they can just stay home and be on call for your every need.

Those 2-4 employees will cost you less in a year than the lawyer you have to hire just to incorporate prudently back home. And here, your Thai partner will take care of the incorporation. Part of his 51%.

I'd rather have 49% of a thriving business than 100% of a non-starter. The good news is that so many foreigners buy into the "give away 51%" crap, that the competition for Thai investment money is pretty sad. The bad news (for me anyway) is that my contract doesn't allow me to moonlight and I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already here in Thailand. And no desire to stay if the paycheck quits coming.

You must be kidding, no businessman in their right mind would EVER sign away control of their company at the founding, and definitely NEVER only to be allowed to incorporate. I think, I'll stick with my 100% owned, 0% corporate tax HK company thanks.

[hugolars]

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Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

So shut down all tourism because they also do not pay tax for those "services". So what if i "pay tax" as you want mo to do and i get hit by a car. Does the service include medical expenses? Hell no!
Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

Maaaaaan. What are you, like 12 dude?

Get a grip. You pay VAT. Bully for you.

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

So duuude, I know your poo doesn't stink and all, but you are dodging the tax man otherwise. If you want tax free living, I hear Somalia is good this time of year.

So in your professional opinion, I mean you have actually written over 13.000 posts which make you believe that you are a pro in these issues, your you telling me that if I stay here over 183 days I have to tax my income twice because i walk on Thai streets. The cash the nomads put in the Thai economy is worth twice since its generated outside Thai economy. VAT is more than enough and the Thais should be happy about this.

Oh did you miss this? "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand"

The "nomads" do not make their cash from sources in Thailand even if they stay here full time. Even a 12 year old can comprehend this.

[Timwin]

You must be kidding, no businessman in their right mind would EVER sign away control of their company at the founding, and definitely NEVER only to be allowed to incorporate. I think, I'll stick with my 100% owned, 0% corporate tax HK company thanks.

Exactly and if you go 2-3 of rounds of angel financing before IPO, your share percentage will be diluted quite a lot, down to single digits. So losing 51 percent from get-go is definitely not the way to do it.

[samran]

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

There it is again. The tripe about "giving up 51% of your company to a Thai"

The idea that you have to "give away 51%" only holds true if you don't want to bother finding one of the thousands of Thais that can and would gladly pay for their 51% with funds, land, property and equipment. Of course, to find them, you have to leave the Expat Ghetto and actually mingle with the natives.

I know dozens of Thais who are extremely entrepreneurial, and would be in the top 1% in annual income in any country they chose. And if I know dozens, that means there are thousands just like them- because I don't get out much.

The "give away 51%" tripe also completely loses sight of the fact that having the right Thai partner can actually smooth things over in every interaction with the government, the banks, the po-po and any Mafioso that may want their cut for nothing. (Caveat- of course, having the wrong partner can kill your business, but that's true anywhere)

And if you can't find something for 2-4 Thais to do, each making a minimum wage of $300 per month, then you're not thinking hard enough- or your time as a company founder isn't worth much. Run errands, chauffeur, do shopping, change the oil, clean the office, walk the dog, watch the kids, clean your socks, wash the car, keep air in the tires,...,... As an alternative, they can just stay home and be on call for your every need.

Those 2-4 employees will cost you less in a year than the lawyer you have to hire just to incorporate prudently back home. And here, your Thai partner will take care of the incorporation. Part of his 51%.

I'd rather have 49% of a thriving business than 100% of a non-starter. The good news is that so many foreigners buy into the "give away 51%" crap, that the competition for Thai investment money is pretty sad. The bad news (for me anyway) is that my contract doesn't allow me to moonlight and I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already here in Thailand. And no desire to stay if the paycheck quits coming.

You must be kidding, no businessman in their right mind would EVER sign away control of their company at the founding, and definitely NEVER only to be allowed to incorporate. I think, I'll stick with my 100% owned, 0% corporate tax HK company thanks.

Plenty of legal ways to control things in a Thai company without having 51%.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/585729-voting-rights-thai-company-shareholders/

[paz]

Plenty of legal ways to control things in a Thai company without having 51%.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/585729-voting-rights-thai-company-shareholders/

Sure, but remember, you can control (on paper), but you can't own.

[Oceanbat]

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

So shut down all tourism because they also do not pay tax for those "services". So what if i "pay tax" as you want mo to do and i get hit by a car. Does the service include medical expenses? Hell no!

Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

Maaaaaan. What are you, like 12 dude?

Get a grip. You pay VAT. Bully for you.

You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

So duuude, I know your poo doesn't stink and all, but you are dodging the tax man otherwise. If you want tax free living, I hear Somalia is good this time of year.

So in your professional opinion, I mean you have actually written over 13.000 posts which make you believe that you are a pro in these issues, your you telling me that if I stay here over 183 days I have to tax my income twice because i walk on Thai streets. The cash the nomads put in the Thai economy is worth twice since its generated outside Thai economy. VAT is more than enough and the Thais should be happy about this.

Oh did you miss this? "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand"

The "nomads" do not make their cash from sources in Thailand even if they stay here full time. Even a 12 year old can comprehend this.

If you are classed as a resident for tax purposes you are usually required to pay tax on any income earned in or out of the country. There are usually a couple of tests, and one is residency or domicile. Most countries classify you as being a resident for tax purposes if you stay for 180 days or more. So if Thailand classifies you as a resident then you should pay tax on any monies earned and brought into Thailand. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that to be the law.

OB

[anon676545345]

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

There it is again. The tripe about "giving up 51% of your company to a Thai"

The idea that you have to "give away 51%" only holds true if you don't want to bother finding one of the thousands of Thais that can and would gladly pay for their 51% with funds, land, property and equipment. Of course, to find them, you have to leave the Expat Ghetto and actually mingle with the natives.

I know dozens of Thais who are extremely entrepreneurial, and would be in the top 1% in annual income in any country they chose. And if I know dozens, that means there are thousands just like them- because I don't get out much.

The "give away 51%" tripe also completely loses sight of the fact that having the right Thai partner can actually smooth things over in every interaction with the government, the banks, the po-po and any Mafioso that may want their cut for nothing. (Caveat- of course, having the wrong partner can kill your business, but that's true anywhere)

And if you can't find something for 2-4 Thais to do, each making a minimum wage of $300 per month, then you're not thinking hard enough- or your time as a company founder isn't worth much. Run errands, chauffeur, do shopping, change the oil, clean the office, walk the dog, watch the kids, clean your socks, wash the car, keep air in the tires,...,... As an alternative, they can just stay home and be on call for your every need.

Those 2-4 employees will cost you less in a year than the lawyer you have to hire just to incorporate prudently back home. And here, your Thai partner will take care of the incorporation. Part of his 51%.

I'd rather have 49% of a thriving business than 100% of a non-starter. The good news is that so many foreigners buy into the "give away 51%" crap, that the competition for Thai investment money is pretty sad. The bad news (for me anyway) is that my contract doesn't allow me to moonlight and I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already here in Thailand. And no desire to stay if the paycheck quits coming.

As you say at the end of your post "I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already", it's somehow assumed that because people choose to reside in Thailand that they should conduct business here. Everything I do is based and taxed outside of Thailand I simply spend a lot of time here because as most would agree it's a nice place to stay, from what I gather from people who do run businesses here it's not the easiest environment.

It seems to have caused much consternation on here that guys have asked for some sort of visa change which would entitle them to reside, pay tax and have some sort of legitimacy here. The fact is that as foreigners here whether running a business, on a retirement or any other kind of visa no matter how long you've been here or how fluent your Thai is as a foreigner we have little legitimacy and virtually no representation here. They run things as they want, I'm happy here but have no inclination to run a business.

[TheSpade]

The guys saying it would be easy and cheap to hire 4 Thai's to do this and that are missing the point.

Most Digital Nomads don't want staff, don't want an office, don't want to have to deal with all the headaches that come with it.

They want to be one man and his laptop working from coffee shops wherever they choose in the world.

For now many have chosen Thailand but that doesn't mean they want to be there forever.

[anon676545345]

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

There it is again. The tripe about "giving up 51% of your company to a Thai"

The idea that you have to "give away 51%" only holds true if you don't want to bother finding one of the thousands of Thais that can and would gladly pay for their 51% with funds, land, property and equipment. Of course, to find them, you have to leave the Expat Ghetto and actually mingle with the natives.

I know dozens of Thais who are extremely entrepreneurial, and would be in the top 1% in annual income in any country they chose. And if I know dozens, that means there are thousands just like them- because I don't get out much.

The "give away 51%" tripe also completely loses sight of the fact that having the right Thai partner can actually smooth things over in every interaction with the government, the banks, the po-po and any Mafioso that may want their cut for nothing. (Caveat- of course, having the wrong partner can kill your business, but that's true anywhere)

And if you can't find something for 2-4 Thais to do, each making a minimum wage of $300 per month, then you're not thinking hard enough- or your time as a company founder isn't worth much. Run errands, chauffeur, do shopping, change the oil, clean the office, walk the dog, watch the kids, clean your socks, wash the car, keep air in the tires,...,... As an alternative, they can just stay home and be on call for your every need.

Those 2-4 employees will cost you less in a year than the lawyer you have to hire just to incorporate prudently back home. And here, your Thai partner will take care of the incorporation. Part of his 51%.

I'd rather have 49% of a thriving business than 100% of a non-starter. The good news is that so many foreigners buy into the "give away 51%" crap, that the competition for Thai investment money is pretty sad. The bad news (for me anyway) is that my contract doesn't allow me to moonlight and I'm pretty happy with what I'm making already here in Thailand. And no desire to stay if the paycheck quits coming.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Chartist

[mathias24]

Double post sorry, but I still think the 'government' and immigration system has shot itself in the foot, leg and goolies by not creating a new visa for farang who can make ample amounts of moolah on the internet legally, it is easily done in many different ways, and it takes away no jobs from the oh so precious Thai work force, and the money goes straight into the economy. Why have they not addressed this properly?

I sell a couple of things on EBay, more a hobby than a finacial one, gives me something to do and buys a few beers now and then. Is that against the Law

[Soutpeel]

but to answer your question, I have no problem with people wanting to work here legally, and I do know a few people who do work legally in a "sole trading" /remote type situations, but these people have taken the time/trouble and investment to get fully legal, by forming a Ltd Thai company, but thats not want the average "on line" poster wants to hear, they are demanding special treatment wanting somthing for nothing, full of self entitlement and stamping their little feet cos they cant get their own way and thats what I comment on

Working for a big oil&gas company, that does the paper work for you, really does not give you a right to judge freelancers. You have your special treatment with that company, keeping you all comfy in your nice little expat bubble.

ah Timwin, .. I was wondering when you were going to make an appearance on this topic, you have been missed, one hopes your going to behaviour yourself

but I fail to see where I get any "special" treatment, I work here, as many expats do, and the company takes care of my paperwork in line with the legal requirements, as many companies do for their expat staff, so hardly special treatment, dear boy

[rwdrwdrwd]

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You are just missing the bit where the same revenue code which contains VAT also contains a little thing about how your income you earn is taxable if repatriated into Thailand once you spend more that 182 days per year in Thailand.

According to KPMG and PwC, only the portion remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned. Probably due to this part of the code http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

'A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand.'

Key phrase being brought into Thailand

This in conjunction with 'Personal Income Tax (PIT) is a direct tax levied on income of a person. A person means an individual, an ordinary partnership, a non-juristic body of person and an undivided estate. In general, a person liable to PIT has to compute his tax liability, file tax return and pay tax, if any, accordingly on a calendar year basis.' means that if somebody keeps foreign sourced income offshore until the subsequent tax year, it is not taxable - since it is not earned in the relevant calendar year for tax calculation, it is not a factor in calculating the relevant years PIT.

No dodging about it, it is simply following the rules. AKA good tax planning.

"A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand."

So staying in Thailand 12 months a year does not make liable to pay tax income made abroad.

Someone staying in Thailand for 12 months a year would be resident for tax purposes. Therefore taxable for income earned and remitted to Thailand that year. They would need to keep it out of the country until the next January 1st for it to ineligible for Thai income tax.

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year.

Or did you mean 1 - 2 months? In that scenario, yes they aren't liable whatsoever.

Edited August 22, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[impulse]

You must be kidding, no businessman in their right mind would EVER sign away control of their company at the founding, and definitely NEVER only to be allowed to incorporate. I think, I'll stick with my 100% owned, 0% corporate tax HK company thanks.

Exactly and if you go 2-3 of rounds of angel financing before IPO, your share percentage will be diluted quite a lot, down to single digits. So losing 51 percent from get-go is definitely not the way to do it.

So it's okay to go down to single digits to get financing, but it's not okay to go down to 49% if the financing comes from a Thai?

And anyone who believes they still have control of their company after venture capitalists have >90% interest, has never had a disagreement with their "angel". They let you have the illusion of control because they're smart and they invested in your vision and they want you to keep the passion.

But make no mistake, you're out if they lose confidence in you. You may still own 10% of the company shares (for a few weeks), but you'll be counting your cash from a remote location, while they dilute you out of relevance by issuing another zillion shares so you end up owning a tiny fraction of a percent. (In fairness, you may still get richer owning <1% than you would have gotten owning 100% of an unfunded idea) Silicon Valley is chock full of rich guys who used to have control of a company they founded, only to find themselves outside looking in when their investors replaced the company management.

Go ahead and stick with your 100% owned, 0% corporate tax HK company. I would, too. But good luck finding a long stay Thai visa based on that situation...

Edited August 22, 2014 by impulse

[Timwin]

ah Timwin, .. I was wondering when you were going to make an appearance on this topic, you have been missed, one hopes your going to behaviour yourself

but I fail to see where I get any "special" treatment, I work here, as many expats do, and the company takes care of my paperwork in line with the legal requirements, as many companies do for their expat staff, so hardly special treatment, dear boy

They put their asses on the line unlike you. You have your nice job but it does not make you any better than those freelancers hunting for a next project. For some it is a lucrative business and for some it is not. So you are just a pesky little bee worker of a big company judging true entrepreneurs. Just like a viewer drinking from his beer mug in a stadium saying, "I could play better than those clowns in the field". You are welcome to try.

[Timwin]

So it's okay to go down to single digits to get financing, but it's not okay to go down to 49% if the financing comes from a Thai?

Average Thai earns 12700 Baht per month, about 400 dollars. You will have much more luck of finding angel investors in EU or USA than in Thailand.

[samran]

Plenty of legal ways to control things in a Thai company without having 51%.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/585729-voting-rights-thai-company-shareholders/

Sure, but remember, you can control (on paper), but you can't own.

Banpu, a listed Thai company on the SET, one of the largest, run and founded by two Thai families is effectively controlled by them holding only 18% of the shares. Happily invested in by many of the worlds largest funds.

It works for people if done right, big or small.

[AYJAYDEE]

Lord Buddha was not a Buddhist, in contemporary terms he was a Hindu.

Bill Gates would have troubling proving his academic qualifications.

Ted Bundy? No problems.

which part of religious activities confused you? and buddha did not believe in a creator or re-incarnation so was not a hindu. try again.

[AYJAYDEE]

does your home country allow everybody to come and stay permanently just because they have decided they want to live and work there?? mine sure doesnt.

mine sure as h*ll doesnt, in fact in this sort of situation, tourists are allowed 180 days a year in country and after that bugger off...come back next year

why oh why cant our leaders see how easy it would be to make our countries so much more powerful and wealthy if they would only recruit every hobo with a laptop that wants to get permanent resident status at no cost and work in other countries so he doesnt have to pay any tax?? how can they be so blind???

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

thats not true. i cannot choose to live in either country without qualifying according to rigorous standards. calling myself a digital nomad is not enough to get permanent residency

[samran]

does your home country allow everybody to come and stay permanently just because they have decided they want to live and work there?? mine sure doesnt.

mine sure as h*ll doesnt, in fact in this sort of situation, tourists are allowed 180 days a year in country and after that bugger off...come back next year

why oh why cant our leaders see how easy it would be to make our countries so much more powerful and wealthy if they would only recruit every hobo with a laptop that wants to get permanent resident status at no cost and work in other countries so he doesnt have to pay any tax?? how can they be so blind???

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

thats not true. i cannot choose to live in either country without qualifying according to rigorous standards. calling myself a digital nomad is not enough to get permanent residency

Spot on. Many of these clowns think that it is a simple and cheap matter of rocking up to the US or UK and they'll roll out the red carpet for a digital nomad.

[AYJAYDEE]

does your home country allow everybody to come and stay permanently just because they have decided they want to live and work there?? mine sure doesnt.

mine sure as h*ll doesnt, in fact in this sort of situation, tourists are allowed 180 days a year in country and after that bugger off...come back next year

why oh why cant our leaders see how easy it would be to make our countries so much more powerful and wealthy if they would only recruit every hobo with a laptop that wants to get permanent resident status at no cost and work in other countries so he doesnt have to pay any tax?? how can they be so blind???

well they do in america and the uk - talent from all over the world heads to silicon valley or cambridge to found startups.

the same would start happening here if the government didn't expect 51% to be handed over and 4 layabouts employed before even a line of code has been written

thats not true. i cannot choose to live in either country without qualifying according to rigorous standards. calling myself a digital nomad is not enough to get permanent residency

Spot on. Many of these clowns think that it is a simple and cheap matter of rocking up to the US or UK and they'll roll out the red carpet for a digital nomad.

they seem to think the ability to find their way around the digital world automatically makes them some kind of desirable person! lol