Just got kicked out of thai with valid visa

[Maestro]

Well as many have stated....we only have Johnny's side of story. Mind you he stated many frank things such as never attending class. I find it strange that there dose not seem to be a post from anyone on ed visa that has this happen to him. Also the op stated it was the senior io.

You are right. The OP, JohnnyBKK, admitted publicly on this forum that he abused the ED visa and perhaps he also admitted it to the immigration officers. He took the the refusal of entry like a man and bought a flight ticket to France.

Now let's look at the practical side of it. You've lived in Thailand for eight years on the marriage extension, your marriage fails and ends in a divorce, you've grown fond living in Thailand, you're too young for the retirement extension, you don't have the wherewithal (500k) for the Elite visa. What can you do to continue living in Thailand?

JohnnyBKK made the mistake of going for the ED visa, without any intention of attending classes. Having seen a multitude of members posting that they were able to get away with this, I can understand his mistake.

His only concern now is whether he is blacklisted, banned from returning to Thailand, and I have seen posts reassuring him that this is not the case. He should have no problem getting an appropriate visa, in his case a tourist visa, from an honorary consulate – in France, forget the consular section of the embassy – and be allowed entry into Thailand with the equivalent of 20k Baht in euro in his pocket. For follow-on visa applications at Thai consulates in neighbouring countries of Thailand I would suggest that he accompany his tourist visa application with a covering letter addressed to His Excellency the Consul General, assuring him that he is not working illegally in Thailand, that he is defraying his cost of living in Thailand with money remitted from outside Thailand to his bank account in Thailand, and enclose documentary evidence to that effect, eg credit advice confirmations from his Thai bank for incoming remittances (must be requested from the bank after every remittance) and cash withdrawal slips and/or debit advice for payment transfers for expenses in Thailand.

Why a letter? All the visa applicant gets to meet at the consulate is a low-level clerk who can brush of his verbal explanation. He never gets to see the consul to plead his case. On the other hand, anything submitted in writing must go on file and this makes a consular clerk and a consul careful nor to abuse his authority.

[ATF]

Although I am inclined to agree with you, the big official stamp in his passport that says 'lack of funds' suggests otherwise.

As for the poster who says "this is ridiculous", I'm equally inclined to agree, but that is the law of the land, ridiculous or not. There are lots of rich people in the world- far too many to be afforded special treatment.

No.... The OP topic line, should of read....." I had a valid ED VISA. However I was not using it for its intended purposed. As result was refused entry. Let this be a warning".

It wasn't about the Thai test or lack of funds.

The IO saw something in passport, perhaps related to his numerous business trips to HK or attendance from wallen school. The latter prob not. He was correctly refused entry. 25+ pages over this. Hells bells

I don't know if they have a stamp that says...." We don't think you have been attending class...also you travel very regularly to HK. Maybe your working" ..

Let's just stamp insufficient funds

Jack don't you get it? They can stamp whatever they like when they like. Freedom is a two way street. You don't have any right of appeal because most long timers don't even have a visa they have an extension of stay which can be revoked at any time if your face doesn't fit.

[bkkcanuck8]

Although I am inclined to agree with you, the big official stamp in his passport that says 'lack of funds' suggests otherwise.

As for the poster who says "this is ridiculous", I'm equally inclined to agree, but that is the law of the land, ridiculous or not. There are lots of rich people in the world- far too many to be afforded special treatment.

No.... The OP topic line, should of read....." I had a valid ED VISA. However I was not using it for its intended purposed. As result was refused entry. Let this be a warning".

It wasn't about the Thai test or lack of funds.

The IO saw something in passport, perhaps related to his numerous business trips to HK or attendance from wallen school. The latter prob not. He was correctly refused entry. 25+ pages over this. Hells bells

I don't know if they have a stamp that says...." We don't think you have been attending class...also you travel very regularly to HK. Maybe your working" ..

Let's just stamp insufficient funds

Jack don't you get it? They can stamp whatever they like when they like. Freedom is a two way street. You don't have any right of appeal because most long timers don't even have a visa they have an extension of stay which can be revoked at any time if your face doesn't fit.

No, they can stamp only what they have stamps for - which has a reference to regulations.... and the numbers that they are associated to. Stamps may be Thai language, but numbers + country is universally understandable by immigration in all countries.

Yes, you are only a guest here in Thailand and until you gain PR status or citizenship - you have no long term rights, that is no difference than pretty well any other country in the world. If you become an unwelcome guest, they can show you out the door. Many people here seem to forget this and think they have more rights of domicile than they do....

If Thailand were to progress economically from developing to a more developed world, a lot less people would be welcome here... since you would have relatively little benefit on the grand scale of things.

Edited December 2, 2014 by bkkcanuck8

[Maestro]

...don't you get it? They can stamp whatever they like when they like. Freedom is a two way street. You don't have any right of appeal because most long timers don't even have a visa they have an extension of stay which can be revoked at any time if your face doesn't fit.

I was wondering about the right of appeal.

I noticed that the denial of entry stamp shows the details of the flight out of Thailand. So what happens if the foreigner, who in this case had a valid re-entry permit, chooses not to buy such flight ticket?

This is just my guess: the immigration officer has three options:

1. Allow the foreigner to enter on the terms of his re-entry permit.
2. Leave the foreigner stranded in the transit area.
3. Detain the foreigner, send him to IDC, and present him in court (this would be the appeal)

Number 2 above is a bit tricky. I understand that a foreigner is theoretically allowed to stay in the transit area only for a limited period of time without a transit visa. If this limit is exceeded, number 3 would have to kick in.

[Don Mega]

But if can walk to Atm and withdrawa required amount then ok?

Just curious. Is there a big difference between cash in the wallet and cash easily available at any atm machine?

As explained may times already. The requirement is cash in hand. To let you walk (albeit accompanied) to an ATM is a concession that they are not obliged to do, and will not do when their intention is to refuse entry.

That's just ridiculous , you can be a millionaire and only use ATM cards when you travel , you should be allowed to go to any ATM and cash out 20k .

Ridiculous or not, the ATMs are not at immigration - they would have to escort you to the luggage side for you to be allowed to withdraw funds (that is not their job). Even if they did, they might want to get remunerated for it. If you are a millionaire, I am sure they would not ask you because you would have already got the Thai Elite Card and have fantastic service already - and they would have no reason to distrust you. When I travel, often my credit cards get frozen because I have changed patterns -- are you saying they should then allow you to make a call wait a while and then take you back again. Again, they might - but then they might not escort you to an ATM.... but I would not bet on it. If you were a millionaire and decided not to get the Thai Elite Card then you should have no problem keeping the equivalent of a notes in your wallet - since it would mean nothing to you.

Are you saying there are no ATM's airside ?

[harrry]

...don't you get it? They can stamp whatever they like when they like. Freedom is a two way street. You don't have any right of appeal because most long timers don't even have a visa they have an extension of stay which can be revoked at any time if your face doesn't fit.

I was wondering about the right of appeal.

I noticed that the denial of entry stamp shows the details of the flight out of Thailand. So what happens if the foreigner, who in this case had a valid re-entry permit, chooses not to buy such flight ticket?

This is just my guess: the immigration officer has three options:

1. Allow the foreigner to enter on the terms of his re-entry permit.
2. Leave the foreigner stranded in the transit area.
3. Detain the foreigner, send him to IDC, and present him in court (this would be the appeal)

Number 2 above is a bit tricky. I understand that a foreigner is theoretically allowed to stay in the transit area only for a limited period of time without a transit visa. If this limit is exceeded, number 3 would have to kick in.

If number 3 kicks in this is where it gets tricky. I think they would have to present him to a court to continue detaining him and give reasons which if he has the funds in the bank and available would negate the use of the funds reason. I have an idea if this was the case and their case was weak they would have to err on the side of letting him in especially if he said he was willing to a buy a ticket to somewhere other than France.

I think if pushed to this stage at least he could have gone where he likes. Interesting to see what they could have said if he said he wanted to go to Noumea or St Martins

Edited December 3, 2014 by harrry

[brianp0803]

I had my credit cards with me and they refused me to go to the atm.

I would understand them not allowing you to borrow money from your credit to show proof of ability to support yourself without working.

But from discussion here it seems even using the ATM machine to access your savings account is not allowed.

[ubonjoe]

This is just my guess: the immigration officer has three options:

• Allow the foreigner to enter on the terms of his re-entry permit.
• Leave the foreigner stranded in the transit area.
• Detain the foreigner, send him to IDC, and present him in court (this would be the appeal)

Number 2 above is a bit tricky. I understand that a foreigner is theoretically allowed to stay in the transit area only for a limited period of time without a transit visa. If this limit is exceeded, number 3 would have to kick in.

Actually 2 and 3 can be combined.

There is a IDC at the airport where they put people that are left in limbo. Denied entry with no funds for the trip back and the airline not responsible for their return because they met the requirements to board the flight to here.

There was a post about this a few months ago about several people on re-entry permits for ED extensions were denied entry that were in IDC at the airport. Stuck there until they could come up with money for a flight out.

[alantheembalmer]

Does anyone know what jurisdiction the Thai authorities have airside? For example, if you were refused entry at immigration and stayed airside, could they legally "force" you to enter Thailand by taking you from airside to the Bangkok IDC?

[ubonjoe]

Read my previous post. They have an IDC at the airport where they can detain people who have been denied entry.

[alantheembalmer]

Read my previous post. They have an IDC at the airport where they can detain people who have been denied entry.

ubonjoe,

I did read your previous post, but I don't know where the IDC at the airport is, having thankfully never been detained there!

[ubonjoe]

Read my previous post. They have an IDC at the airport where they can detain people who have been denied entry.

ubonjoe,

I did read your previous post, but I don't know where the IDC at the airport is, having thankfully never been detained there!

I don't know where it it is at either.

It does not matter where they detain you since you are not legally in the country until you have an entry stamp.

[lazygourmet]

Read my previous post. They have an IDC at the airport where they can detain people who have been denied entry.

ubonjoe,

I did read your previous post, but I don't know where the IDC at the airport is, having thankfully never been detained there!

I don't know where it it is at either.

It does not matter where they detain you since you are not legally in the country until you have an entry stamp.

It's located downstairs at Terminal 2 and it's privately managed by Chubb security.

[TSF]

I had my credit cards with me and they refused me to go to the atm.

I would understand them not allowing you to borrow money from your credit to show proof of ability to support yourself without working.

But from discussion here it seems even using the ATM machine to access your savings account is not allowed.

Every time I fly into Thailand I have very little THB with me, often just around 5000 Bt. Enough to pay a taxi to Pattaya and pay for my hotel room and get a meal and a few beers until I get to the ATM or the bank in the morning and gets some funds.

So is it possible that an I/O with an attitude could also refuse me entry on grounds of insufficient money (cash) even though I have a very healthy balance in a Thai bank?

[bkkcanuck8]

That's just ridiculous , you can be a millionaire and only use ATM cards when you travel , you should be allowed to go to any ATM and cash out 20k .

Ridiculous or not, the ATMs are not at immigration - they would have to escort you to the luggage side for you to be allowed to withdraw funds (that is not their job). Even if they did, they might want to get remunerated for it. If you are a millionaire, I am sure they would not ask you because you would have already got the Thai Elite Card and have fantastic service already - and they would have no reason to distrust you. When I travel, often my credit cards get frozen because I have changed patterns -- are you saying they should then allow you to make a call wait a while and then take you back again. Again, they might - but then they might not escort you to an ATM.... but I would not bet on it. If you were a millionaire and decided not to get the Thai Elite Card then you should have no problem keeping the equivalent of a notes in your wallet - since it would mean nothing to you.

Are you saying there are no ATM's airside ?

I have not seen any while I was walking along from discount airline slots (far far away) to the immigration, but that is not to say there are not any. There are currency exchange booths, and they might do credit card advances. The point is that once you go to immigration - there is likely a standard policy of allowing entry or detaining. I don't know of any immigration that would allow you to go back airside without being escorted -- because you are now potentially a security risk.

The requirement on arrival is an onward ticket OR 20,000 baht in cash. A lot of countries the requirement is an onward ticket only -- and maybe an additional requirement of proof of finances etc. Basically the 20,000 cash is in lieu of the ticket.

[ubonjoe]

The requirement on arrival is an onward ticket OR 20,000 baht in cash. A lot of countries the requirement is an onward ticket only -- and maybe an additional requirement of proof of finances etc. Basically the 20,000 cash is in lieu of the ticket.

The here is no or.

It is 20,000 baht if you have a visa or re-entry permit. If no visa it is 10k baht and a ticket out to get a visa exempt entry..

[zzdocxx]

Thank you BT, actually I find the singing and the illustrations rather charming. I am guessing that pictures represent a word starting with that letter, would I be right ?

I don't understand the writing underneath though, the second set of words seem to be the letter itself ?

Speaking of reading and writing Thai, is there a song like we have in English so that one could learn the Thai alphabet by singing ?

OK the first 6 seconds or so are kind of boring, but just wait, then it gets into the actual song.

There are several. This is the main one for learning consonants (awful singing, unfortunately, in this version, but you could probably find a more tuneful version);

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T02AkRj6Pcw

[bkkcanuck8]

ubonjoe, I stand corrected.

It is funny, when I was younger and we would travel across the border into the US to visit relatives -- or when we were returning to Canada.... Customs and Immigration was always a place to be apprehensive about - and you would make sure to have everything in order before arriving there. You would answer the questions asked, but you would never volunteer information etc. You knew they had the power to take your car apart if they suspected anything -- and whether they found anything or not they were not responsible for putting it back together. You just did not fool around there.

Today people seem to view their passports as if they are credentialed diplomats, that they are entitled - that you have rights like any other resident or citizen.... You are not a citizen, you are not a resident, you are a guest and you have no "right of entry". Follow the rules and don't make waves or headaches for the officers at Immigration and you will likely not have any problems, try to play games or make their lives more difficult and you could be in for a world of pain.

[bkkcanuck8]

Thank you BT, actually I find the singing and the illustrations rather charming. I am guessing that pictures represent a word starting with that letter, would I be right ?

I don't understand the writing underneath though, the second set of words seem to be the letter itself ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_alphabet

In there you will find a table with the alphabet. The first letter is the symbol, the second part is the name of that letter (a lot of letters have the same constant sound but different name and different effect on tones of vowels etc).

The first character is the letter, the whole text together is the name of the letter... and the characters without the letter are the letters meaning (the first one means chicken). You will see characters before that letter in the meaning sometime - those are vowels.... the vowels in Thai are often compared to unruly children - they can be on top, to the right, to the left and beneath the consonant (but pronounced following the consonant).

[TSF]

The requirement on arrival is an onward ticket OR 20,000 baht in cash. A lot of countries the requirement is an onward ticket only -- and maybe an additional requirement of proof of finances etc. Basically the 20,000 cash is in lieu of the ticket.

The here is no or.

It is 20,000 baht if you have a visa or re-entry permit. If no visa it is 10k baht and a ticket out to get a visa exempt entry..

I know this is hypothetical and splitting hairs but....I could fly into Swampy with a valid retirement visa + re-entry but do not have 20,000THB cash on me, but have money waiting for me in Thai accounts. And a nasty official could refuse me to entry on the grounds I do not have sufficient cash and force me to return to country of passport?

[MacWalen]

I know this is hypothetical and splitting hairs but....I could fly into Swampy with a valid retirement visa + re-entry but do not have 20,000THB cash on me, but have money waiting for me in Thai accounts. And a nasty official could refuse me to entry on the grounds I do not have sufficient cash and force me to return to country of passport?

Should not be any problem.

Edited December 3, 2014 by MacWalen

[ubonjoe]

The requirement on arrival is an onward ticket OR 20,000 baht in cash. A lot of countries the requirement is an onward ticket only -- and maybe an additional requirement of proof of finances etc. Basically the 20,000 cash is in lieu of the ticket.

The here is no or.

It is 20,000 baht if you have a visa or re-entry permit. If no visa it is 10k baht and a ticket out to get a visa exempt entry..

I know this is hypothetical and splitting hairs but....I could fly into Swampy with a valid retirement visa + re-entry but do not have 20,000THB cash on me, but have money waiting for me in Thai accounts. And a nasty official could refuse me to entry on the grounds I do not have sufficient cash and force me to return to country of passport?

The chances of you ever being questioned are almost zero because you are on a one year extension and are required to show financial proof every year.

It is not the same as coming in on a visa or a re-entry permit for a 90 day extension that requires no financial proof to get.

[jpinx]

The requirement on arrival is an onward ticket OR 20,000 baht in cash. A lot of countries the requirement is an onward ticket only -- and maybe an additional requirement of proof of finances etc. Basically the 20,000 cash is in lieu of the ticket.

The here is no or.

It is 20,000 baht if you have a visa or re-entry permit. If no visa it is 10k baht and a ticket out to get a visa exempt entry..

I know this is hypothetical and splitting hairs but....I could fly into Swampy with a valid retirement visa + re-entry but do not have 20,000THB cash on me, but have money waiting for me in Thai accounts. And a nasty official could refuse me to entry on the grounds I do not have sufficient cash and force me to return to country of passport?

As others have said - it should be no trouble, but with the attitudes displayed by some farangs towards immigration, police, etc, it is no surprise that people end up in some difficulties. Most of the "complainers" describe their encounter with authority in terms of what "rights" they have because of various bits of paper, but they neglect to describe their own attitude to the officer they are dealing with. Too often people forget that we are all guests here in Thailand and if you are not polite to your hosts you will not be welcome.

Having said that - - when I see some of the farangs here it becomes obvious that they actually don't understand what "being polite" means.

Edited December 3, 2014 by jpinx

[jacksam]

Well as many have stated....we only have Johnny's side of story.

I believe we have much more than that if you go through and look at the posts.

I have read every post.....can't find one from the senior IO.

I repeat....no one knows io reasons. Myself included. I'm suggesting it MAY not have been insufficient funds or reading test

[jspill]

Well as many have stated....we only have Johnny's side of story.

I believe we have much more than that if you go through and look at the posts.

I have read every post.....can't find one from the senior IO.

I repeat....no one knows io reasons. Myself included. I'm suggesting it MAY not have been insufficient funds or reading test

The denial stamp written by the IO into his passport says insufficient funds and suspicion of being employed here. Nothing about Ed visas being a joke or lesson attendance compulsory.

Edited December 3, 2014 by jspill

[stevenl]

Well as many have stated....we only have Johnny's side of story.

I believe we have much more than that if you go through and look at the posts.

I have read every post.....can't find one from the senior IO.

I repeat....no one knows io reasons. Myself included. I'm suggesting it MAY not have been insufficient funds or reading test

The denial stamp written by the IO into his passport says insufficient funds and suspicion of being employed here. Nothing about Ed visas being a joke or lesson attendance compulsory.

Which is the standard stamp, does not mean that was the reason.

[TheSpade]

Today people seem to view their passports as if they are credentialed diplomats, that they are entitled - that you have rights like any other resident or citizen.... You are not a citizen, you are not a resident, you are a guest and you have no "right of entry". Follow the rules and don't make waves or headaches for the officers at Immigration and you will likely not have any problems, try to play games or make their lives more difficult and you could be in for a world of pain.

It always amazes me how unprepared some people are when arriving at a new country or doing border runs for example.

I met people on border runs with no money on other than the fee for the visa company and no bank card should anything go wrong. And I've seen it go wrong. People having problems with their visa and being asked for cash to fix it but not having any.

Peoples passport having less than 6 months validity on it (and they knew this but decided to take a chance) and being told they can't come back into Thailand so potentially being stranded at a Cambodian border town with no cash on them and no card to go travel elsewhere.

I've met people who had arrived at the airport thinking their accommodation was sending someone to pcick them up but then the driver didn't show and the person who's just arrived doesn't remember where they are staying and has no note of the name so doesn't know where to go or how to get there.

Whenever I'm traveling anywhere, going to a new country or doing something like a border run I make sure I have a decent amount on me, working bank card + a backup one, print outs of a flight out the country (or some sort of travel itinerary), print offs of recent bank statements showing finances.

All just in case it's needed. Better to be prepared than risk the consequences. Imagine flying all the way to Thailand from Europe and being told you can't come in just because you didn't take some cash out the ATM or carry a working bank card.

[jpinx]

Today people seem to view their passports as if they are credentialed diplomats, that they are entitled - that you have rights like any other resident or citizen.... You are not a citizen, you are not a resident, you are a guest and you have no "right of entry". Follow the rules and don't make waves or headaches for the officers at Immigration and you will likely not have any problems, try to play games or make their lives more difficult and you could be in for a world of pain.

It always amazes me how unprepared some people are when arriving at a new country or doing border runs for example.

I met people on border runs with no money on other than the fee for the visa company and no bank card should anything go wrong. And I've seen it go wrong. People having problems with their visa and being asked for cash to fix it but not having any.

Peoples passport having less than 6 months validity on it (and they knew this but decided to take a chance) and being told they can't come back into Thailand so potentially being stranded at a Cambodian border town with no cash on them and no card to go travel elsewhere.

I've met people who had arrived at the airport thinking their accommodation was sending someone to pcick them up but then the driver didn't show and the person who's just arrived doesn't remember where they are staying and has no note of the name so doesn't know where to go or how to get there.

Whenever I'm traveling anywhere, going to a new country or doing something like a border run I make sure I have a decent amount on me, working bank card + a backup one, print outs of a flight out the country (or some sort of travel itinerary), print offs of recent bank statements showing finances.

All just in case it's needed. Better to be prepared than risk the consequences. Imagine flying all the way to Thailand from Europe and being told you can't come in just because you didn't take some cash out the ATM or carry a working bank card.

The same people who behave like that will then come on TV and post derogatory remarks about Thailand and it's people - like this.... http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/781100-pichit-new-technique-to-turn-decaying-rice-to-safe-and-quality-rice-discovered/page-3#entry8754513

[stevenl]

Today people seem to view their passports as if they are credentialed diplomats, that they are entitled - that you have rights like any other resident or citizen.... You are not a citizen, you are not a resident, you are a guest and you have no "right of entry". Follow the rules and don't make waves or headaches for the officers at Immigration and you will likely not have any problems, try to play games or make their lives more difficult and you could be in for a world of pain.

It always amazes me how unprepared some people are when arriving at a new country or doing border runs for example.

I met people on border runs with no money on other than the fee for the visa company and no bank card should anything go wrong. And I've seen it go wrong. People having problems with their visa and being asked for cash to fix it but not having any.

Peoples passport having less than 6 months validity on it (and they knew this but decided to take a chance) and being told they can't come back into Thailand so potentially being stranded at a Cambodian border town with no cash on them and no card to go travel elsewhere.

I've met people who had arrived at the airport thinking their accommodation was sending someone to pcick them up but then the driver didn't show and the person who's just arrived doesn't remember where they are staying and has no note of the name so doesn't know where to go or how to get there.

Whenever I'm traveling anywhere, going to a new country or doing something like a border run I make sure I have a decent amount on me, working bank card + a backup one, print outs of a flight out the country (or some sort of travel itinerary), print offs of recent bank statements showing finances.

All just in case it's needed. Better to be prepared than risk the consequences. Imagine flying all the way to Thailand from Europe and being told you can't come in just because you didn't take some cash out the ATM or carry a working bank card.

Since their is no minimum 6 months passport validity their risk of being stranded in a border town is really small.

[jacksam]

You sure about that stevie