British tourist kills police in crash

[lensta]

As far as I can see from the report the British driver was not at fault.

No evidence he was speeding or drunk.

Thai making a u-turn on an unregistered, uninsured, untaxed m/c.

Thai happens to be an off duty policeman ...... so what.

Was the Thai drunk? No evidence presented, but he was breaking the law.

Unregistered un taxed uninsured.........all sadly irrelevant here, wonder if he had a helmet on too?

All may be irrelevant here but if you've driven on the roads at night in Thailand, one must ask "did the motorcycle it have tail lights? A large percentage of my close encounters out on HWY 4 at night are with motorcycles/scooters without rear lights.

And did the car have lights? This question applies to both vehicles.

I have been in that car and the lights come on automatically when it gets dark

[Johnnie99]

Crazy Brit. You don't visit a foreign country, rent a car, and drive with reckless abandon. You don't know the roads and you are a guest.

I hope they lock up Mr. Benjamin in a Thai prison cell for a few years and not just let him go back to the island after paying off the officer's family.

My condolences to Police Lance Corporal Wiroon's family and friends. Terrible that this happens at the end of the Songkran holiday.

Well, what a silly comment.

Yes, the man was a fool for speeding but let's not forget that he might well have decided to drive like the indigenous population - that is, stupidly.

Of course, he would have good road sense as the 'Brits' (or British) also drive on the correct side of the road.

[MaeJoMTB]

I think it is silly to assign blame at this time in the proceedings. We have no idea who's at fault and it could be that they were both in the wrong. The Brit for speeding and the Thai officer for making an ill-advised U-turn in front of an on coming car.

I agree entirely. Try always to drive defensively and "speeding" is not defensive driving. How would I "guess" that the car driver was speeding? By the amount of damage to the car.

But I do wonder why the motorbike had no licence plate? Is it legal for Police to ride bikes like that? Maybe we will never know (or be told)

Regardless of blame, it is a road fatality nevertheless and my condolences to the Policeman's family and friends.

It has already been posted several times on this thread; new vehicles are not sold with a registration plate.

Actually, a friend of mine just bought a new vespa and it was sold with a red plate. The dealership would not let him take the bike without the red plate which would be changed to a white plate within 1 month.

You're not supposed to drive after dark on a red plate (no plate).

Another fine-able offence.

[ukrules]

just hit a dog with your cat at 90 km/h , and you ll see the face of car . you speak about something that you don't know . it's crazy .... are you all experts of what ??? and even if he was driving to quick , is that a reason to be guilty of murder ? the title say : - a brit killed a motorbike policeman driver .... KILLED ???? beter say : a motorbike policeman driver die after accident with a car . a why say that the driver is brit ??? how many expats or tourist die after accident with thai-drivers ( drunked , who takes jaba , who fall asleep , who drive crazy ) ? anyway , the brit will be guilty just cause he's farang so everybody will be happy , even you the expats . you disgusting me .

I see that you are disappointed with many of the comments made on here, so I should tell you firstly, that I've had 30 years service in law enforcement, with the last 20 as a Crash Investigator. I hope that's sufficient for me to comment on a few aspects that you have brought up? During this time I completed numerous courses required to become a certified Crash Investigator and have investigated numerous fatal motor vehicle crashes, staged accidents and serious (catastrophic) incidents.

Firstly, there are so many factors involved in investigating such matters, that I would be here all day typing. So I'll try to keep it short. One aspect that I agree with you on and conclude from the posts that many are relying on newspaper articles as a source for their comments and subsequent conclusions. Not a very wise thing to do.

You then mention speed and murder, all in the one sentence. Of course this does not relate to murder; murder in an intentional act of killing a person and although he may have been speeding, it would be most unlikely that this was his intention. There is however, a charge of manslaughter, which, once all the facts are known, could well be brought against the driver of the car. Whatever the outcome, I certainly would not like to be in his shoes.

When viewing the damage, as depicted by the photograph, one can safely say the car was being driven at a high speed, (unknown) and that impact occurred, initially on the left (nearside) of the vehicle and then worsens as it progresses backwards and rises upward toward the offside of the car. This is a good indication that impact occurred at speed, (unknown) when the cyclist was at an angle to the vehicle.

This could cause the front of the cycle to be propelled away whilst the rest of the bike continued backwards and upwards into the vehicle, with the body possibly impacting and shattering the windscreen. It also gives the impression that there was little, if any, braking at the time of initial impact. However, if there were there skid marks, then these, when combined with a number of other factors, would provide evidence as to the vehicle's speed at the time of impact.

The press release contains a version provided by the driver of the car, however, this can be neither accepted or rejected until all the evidence has been gathered which would then allow investigators to reach a conclusion, one way or another. At this time it sure beats me how anyone can conclude who is at fault or what their fate should be. Not only does it appear many are super sleuths but also want to be the judge, jury and executioner

Let's not forget the need for medicals, scene investigation, witnesses, reconstruction if needed and the numerous other factors that need to be carried out before any finding can be reached. In so far as your not liking the use of the word "Killed", nothing wrong with that as it relates to the death of a person, animal or other living thing. As for the rest, have no idea what you're on about so I'll leave it it at that.

I'm taking you up on this one - Mr. Expert. Why? I just recently retired as a Senior Vehicle Manager/Launch Manager. I've worked for Jag, Ford, Benz, BM, you name it... and you're talking out of your backside.

Crash and impact is a particular expertise of mine... so meet your maker on this one!

That car, as shown (who knows if it is the real car after the event) was not impacted by a bike at high speed, nor did it impact one do create so much unilateral damage to the car.

Watch a Benz against a fixed barrier ( a fixed block of concrete... unable to move) and you see the impact results against the car) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mxj2aj_X4s

That crash is at 35K/ph into a fixed wall barrier - it won't move. The car has to take the impact and bounce off it. That is akin to nothing like a car bullet at 90K/ph hitting a moving object - the object will fly, despite there being an equal and opposite force - there is no equal force in mass!

A car at 90K/ph would throw the bike and suffer little damage - maybe a slightly impacted bonnet, a broken light on one side, impacted bonnet with large damage, but even if it dragged the bike under the car would in no way sustain too much damage as displayed (again, I relate back to and wonder if the picture is true - but seeing as that's what you're going on.. let's play with that).

The passenger of the bike would, for sure, hit the screen, but there is no way a non-stationary moving object would cause that much damage to the front end. Torsion and impact bars are not even crumpled nor twisted at all - A-pillars are intact, as usually expected, but there is too much damage to both sides of the front-end to warrant a single impact, unless with a stationary and fixed object hit more than one time, and that does not happen with impacting either a bike or a pedestrian.

I COULD go on... but await your wise reply.

Interesting, so what do you think happened then ? Perhaps a third larger vehicle like a truck smashed into the wreck and continued on driving ?

[balo]

It doesn't matter if the Brit was speeding or not. The fact is he was out on the roads in the middle of the night and he hit a bike. The question here is if he could have avoided it.

Why was he out driving early in the morning 2.40 am in the first place? Did he consume alcohol that night ? How familar was he with Thai roads and the traffic here? I guess we will never find out.

[Truth4All]

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This will be interesting to follow... The type of car the Brit was driving is irrelevant - the result would have been the same in a Toyota or Honda.

02:40am - Was there any trace of alcohol on the driver ? On the deceased Policeman ? - this would be key to determining a deadly mistake or manslaughter.

Was the driver within the speed limit ? the Opening Post notes that he was 'speeding his car' did the driver (Benjamin) admit to this or is this a poorly written article ?

Already some members are throwing emotion around without enough fact from which to base their conclusions...

Of course, we can all garner our opinions and assumptions... i.e. mine would be that at that time, both parties have had a few drinks, both are illegally on the road, the Bike pulled out infront of the Car to make a U-Turn without looking. The Car couldn't avoid the bike... BUT... thats just an assumption...

Key facts need to be established - Drinking ? (both Rider and Driver); Speeding ? (Driver); Pulled out without looking (Rider).

If the motorcycle was hit and then found 200 meters away , you can safely state that the driver was speeding (and quite a bit too).

I stated in another Post that I'd bet he was traveling at 140-160kph. At 2:40AM there was probably very little, or no traffic.

One Poster asked if the Cop had his lights on-- we don't know. If no one else was on the road, and usually no one would be, or very occasionally, then the Brit(unless he was very pissed) would be ok going that fast in a Benz(not a Merc as some Genius' said). The Cop was a 24 year old with a 300cc Motorcycle(I would say that is a racer-type hot-shot bike).

Both the Cop Crash Investigator and UK Rules have part of the scenario and I'm sure we all agre that we were not there to witness the tragedy and are at the mercy of what we read and the picture of the Benz. I'm pretty sure that the "Thai" Investigaors will not be able to enlighten us much more. One Poster asked of another Poster what he would have done?

Guess that Poster has never driven cars much! I would have killed that Cop for sure and regretted it the rest of my life.

If someone pokes or drives in front of my car, so that I have no option to avoid a collision, they will be smashed.

I hit a German Shepard of 40Kilos doing 100kph that ran across the road in front of my car-- no chance to avoid him--

killed the dog(I Love dogs and it made me sad that I'd killed him)-- smashed the hell out of the front of my car-- and I stayed around until I found the Owner of the dog and apologized- this was in America, so the Owner didn't ask me for 10,000Baht.

[Truth4All]

RIP. Speeding car, wild tourist, quick U turn.... Alcohol? Recipe for disaster, and it happened.

Read some of the other Posts and you might be able to clue in as to what the situation is.

WILD Tourist?? Go back to sleep.

[Anon999]

Not a Benz, dear me ,more power to the Lefty Brits again...If it was Nop in a Shagged Truck its hardly worth a mention. Unplated Bike ridden by Drunk Cop most likely.

Your assumption is like the rest of the TVF Thai knockers.

The problem is 'U' turns, they are very dangerous, however, was it on a single carriageway road?

From my understanding of the Thai 'law' you do not need to have number plates if remaining within the boundaries of the 'city'. Cars and bikes without plates are not uncommon in the city I live in. New ones waiting for their registration are common.

[smileydude]

Accidents and deaths are a sad part of life and my condolences to the family of the policeman.

Initial facts seem to point to both being at fault.

One for speeding and the other for the sudden U-turn but we really weren't there or part of the investigation so any assumptions would just be pre-judgemental.

Edited April 16, 2015 by smileydude

[attento]

Hope he's not expecting help from the British Embassy.

Unless the driver is a member of the Diplomatic Corps, the Embassy would remind him that it is the duty of every visitor to adhere to the Laws of that country, and offer a list of suitable lawyers. What else could they/should they do ?

[ableguy]

Yes, even tourist can act like jerks on the roads here in Thailand. Another poor cop is strike down by a hi-so car. Bring back memories anyone?

God help the tourist, guilty or not the cops do not take kindly to killing their own, I pity this mans future. And yes for all you libatarians he does if guilty of any transgression deserve punishment, but the type he will get does not happen in a society governed by law.

[ableguy]

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This will be interesting to follow... The type of car the Brit was driving is irrelevant - the result would have been the same in a Toyota or Honda.

02:40am - Was there any trace of alcohol on the driver ? On the deceased Policeman ? - this would be key to determining a deadly mistake or manslaughter.

Was the driver within the speed limit ? the Opening Post notes that he was 'speeding his car' did the driver (Benjamin) admit to this or is this a poorly written article ?

Already some members are throwing emotion around without enough fact from which to base their conclusions...

Of course, we can all garner our opinions and assumptions... i.e. mine would be that at that time, both parties have had a few drinks, both are illegally on the road, the Bike pulled out infront of the Car to make a U-Turn without looking. The Car couldn't avoid the bike... BUT... thats just an assumption...

Key facts need to be established - Drinking ? (both Rider and Driver); Speeding ? (Driver); Pulled out without looking (Rider).

If the motorcycle was hit and then found 200 meters away , you can safely state that the driver was speeding (and quite a bit too).

I stated in another Post that I'd bet he was traveling at 140-160kph. At 2:40AM there was probably very little, or no traffic.

One Poster asked if the Cop had his lights on-- we don't know. If no one else was on the road, and usually no one would be, or very occasionally, then the Brit(unless he was very pissed) would be ok going that fast in a Benz(not a Merc as some Genius' said). The Cop was a 24 year old with a 300cc Motorcycle(I would say that is a racer-type hot-shot bike).

Both the Cop Crash Investigator and UK Rules have part of the scenario and I'm sure we all agre that we were not there to witness the tragedy and are at the mercy of what we read and the picture of the Benz. I'm pretty sure that the "Thai" Investigaors will not be able to enlighten us much more. One Poster asked of another Poster what he would have done?

Guess that Poster has never driven cars much! I would have killed that Cop for sure and regretted it the rest of my life.

If someone pokes or drives in front of my car, so that I have no option to avoid a collision, they will be smashed.

I hit a German Shepard of 40Kilos doing 100kph that ran across the road in front of my car-- no chance to avoid him--

killed the dog(I Love dogs and it made me sad that I'd killed him)-- smashed the hell out of the front of my car-- and I stayed around until I found the Owner of the dog and apologized- this was in America, so the Owner didn't ask me for 10,000Baht.

And your point is apart from your life history ?

[Truth4All]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

This will be interesting to follow... The type of car the Brit was driving is irrelevant - the result would have been the same in a Toyota or Honda.

02:40am - Was there any trace of alcohol on the driver ? On the deceased Policeman ? - this would be key to determining a deadly mistake or manslaughter.

Was the driver within the speed limit ? the Opening Post notes that he was 'speeding his car' did the driver (Benjamin) admit to this or is this a poorly written article ?

Already some members are throwing emotion around without enough fact from which to base their conclusions...

Of course, we can all garner our opinions and assumptions... i.e. mine would be that at that time, both parties have had a few drinks, both are illegally on the road, the Bike pulled out infront of the Car to make a U-Turn without looking. The Car couldn't avoid the bike... BUT... thats just an assumption...

Key facts need to be established - Drinking ? (both Rider and Driver); Speeding ? (Driver); Pulled out without looking (Rider).

If the motorcycle was hit and then found 200 meters away , you can safely state that the driver was speeding (and quite a bit too).

I stated in another Post that I'd bet he was traveling at 140-160kph. At 2:40AM there was probably very little, or no traffic.

One Poster asked if the Cop had his lights on-- we don't know. If no one else was on the road, and usually no one would be, or very occasionally, then the Brit(unless he was very pissed) would be ok going that fast in a Benz(not a Merc as some Genius' said). The Cop was a 24 year old with a 300cc Motorcycle(I would say that is a racer-type hot-shot bike).

Both the Cop Crash Investigator and UK Rules have part of the scenario and I'm sure we all agre that we were not there to witness the tragedy and are at the mercy of what we read and the picture of the Benz. I'm pretty sure that the "Thai" Investigaors will not be able to enlighten us much more. One Poster asked of another Poster what he would have done?

Guess that Poster has never driven cars much! I would have killed that Cop for sure and regretted it the rest of my life.

If someone pokes or drives in front of my car, so that I have no option to avoid a collision, they will be smashed.

I hit a German Shepard of 40Kilos doing 100kph that ran across the road in front of my car-- no chance to avoid him--

killed the dog(I Love dogs and it made me sad that I'd killed him)-- smashed the hell out of the front of my car-- and I stayed around until I found the Owner of the dog and apologized- this was in America, so the Owner didn't ask me for 10,000Baht.

And your point is apart from your life history ?

My point is that shit happens-- what is your point?

[casualbiker]

One thing worth considering when they talk about " the bike was 200metres away" they don't actually say if it was in front or behind. It could well have been flipped over the top of the car and be behind it!

[snowyy73]

How many times have all of us who drive here had idiots at U turns pull directly into the fast lane without looking?

It's a daily occurrence and luckily I've always managed to avoid them unlike the unfortunate guy here. At U turns it is usually the person who is turning's fault.

I have stayed at a hotel on this road and watched the idiots doing a U turn.and i always thought if ever i drove out here i would never try a U turn.Why they allow it is beyond me.whats wrong with traffic lights

[normac44]

Maybe some of you need to come to Aust. and see the damage done to a car after hitting a Kangaroo. I used to have a Rover 3500 SD1, a good strong English car. I hit a roo at about 80kph and my car was writtten off completely. The roo just got up and hopped away to the other side of the road.

I do think though that this accident in Hua Hin looks like high speed involved.

[Mcffee]

That's a lot of damage from hitting a motorcyle.

In fact, I'd go to say impossible!

A China/Thai made Mercedes cannot be compared with a real German made Mercedes, they using cheap steel and parts, same look and brand but actually a totally different car. The same for BMW a Thai-made BMW is just not the real thing more an in-brand copy and Volkswagen the same story.

[casualbiker]

That's a lot of damage from hitting a motorcyle.

In fact, I'd go to say impossible!

A China/Thai made Mercedes cannot be compared with a real German made Mercedes, they using cheap steel and parts, same look and brand but actually a totally different car. The same for BMW a Thai-made BMW is just not the real thing more an in-brand copy and Volkswagen the same story.

Really! And your proof for this assertion?

[Beng]

Those U turns are dangerous.

[fishhooks]

It doesn't matter if the Brit was speeding or not. The fact is he was out on the roads in the middle of the night and he hit a bike. The question here is if he could have avoided it.

Why was he out driving early in the morning 2.40 am in the first place? Did he consume alcohol that night ? How familar was he with Thai roads and the traffic here? I guess we will never find out.

Oh no!

Didn't think I would see it again, but, here we have it!

Another member questioning the fact that the vehicle driver was out and about in the early hours of the morning.

First up: What in anyone's language has this got to do with anyone else other than the driver in question.

Secondly: This aspect, i.e. time of day, could quite likely have nothing whatsoever to do with this incident.

Thirdly:...... balo.....The other questions you present are as you say "I guess we will never find out" .......So yes, really just wasted Forum space.

Please leave any questions regarding legal aspects to the proper authority. It will never be solved here.......As much as I love the main function and content on Thai Visa, you're unlikely be satisfied with any possible answer here.

[novo58]

Well one thing that I have learnt from this thread and my short time as a TVF member....................................

If for any reason I am ever dragged before a court for any reason -- I DO NOT want any TVF members in the jury ( assuming I get a jury).

They would have me convicted , sentenced and probably executed within 1 minute of the charges being read.

Let he/she who is without sin caste the first stone .......................................

[Luxfare]

That's a lot of damage from hitting a motorcyle.

In fact, I'd go to say impossible!

A China/Thai made Mercedes cannot be compared with a real German made Mercedes, they using cheap steel and parts, same look and brand but actually a totally different car. The same for BMW a Thai-made BMW is just not the real thing more an in-brand copy and Volkswagen the same story.

Apart from the fact that neither Mercedes nor BMW make their cars in Thailand and even if they did there's a certain thing called OEM which both companies would insist upon to maintain their reputations.

So erm....you're wrong.

[F4UCorsair]

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I hope tha they lock this guy up and just throw the keys away.

I love listening to you, saint and super driver, that never disobey the rules in Thailand.

Try to read the article properly, the guy was cut off by the motorbike when the policeman made a u-turn at the spot suddenly, cutting into his way and making it impossible for him to stop his car in time.

Ask yourself, what would you have done in a situation like this?

So stop, trying to be clever and think before you post nonsense.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

I do not believe that a car impacting a bike cold cause it to be thrown 200 meters. Think about the energy required to pitch even 100 Kgs 200 meters, just not possible. The driver may have been speeding, but 200 meters.......impossible at less that 300 Kms/hr in my view.

20 meters I can believe, even 40 meters is plausible, but not 200.

Edited April 17, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[richard_smith237]

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I hope tha they lock this guy up and just throw the keys away.

I love listening to you, saint and super driver, that never disobey the rules in Thailand.

Try to read the article properly, the guy was cut off by the motorbike when the policeman made a u-turn at the spot suddenly, cutting into his way and making it impossible for him to stop his car in time.

Ask yourself, what would you have done in a situation like this?

So stop, trying to be clever and think before you post nonsense.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

I do not believe that a car impacting a bike cold cause it to be thrown 200 meters. Think about the energy required to pitch even 100 Kgs 200 meters, just not possible. The driver may have been speeding, but 200 meters.......impossible at less that 300 Kms/hr in my view.

20 meters I can believe, even 40 meters is plausible, but not 200.

200m is more than likely a guess made my either someone at the scene or the writer of the initial article... A lot of people are showing their naivety somewhat by hanging on the 200m comment...

Have you ever asked anyone, especially a Thai person to judge a distance? - they'll often guesstimate something as erroneous as 50m being 200m...

Thus: Don't hold too much credit to the written article, I'd be quite sure that 200m is not a factual measurement.

[Lee4Life]

Sviss Geez,,,

What decade of Google are you using?.... Are you THAT dense?.... "There is nothing like a black-box in a car, any car, as yet in production." But you ARE correct,,,, "FAIL!",,,,,, just not me,,,,

1, 2011, http://www.wired.com/2011/05/automotive-black-boxes/

2, 2013, http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/06/black-boxes-cars-edr/1566098/

3, 2014, http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/columnist/komando/2014/12/26/keep-your-car-black-box-private/20609035/

There,,, i've provided 3,, dating back over at least 4 years,,,, Care to show me ONE, concerning a MODERN car like this Mercedes, that counters these I've provided?,,,,,, WHY is it some people, dig a small hole,, and when it's pointed out they are digging themselves into a hole,, claim they're NOT, and Seem to ask, "Mate?,, got a larger shovel?"...

They are purely ECUs. They are not programmed to record every second or every movement. They simply update the electronics during a journey. We're not at Star Trek level yet. They retune the engine, they monitor electrics primarily, ensure warning lights are on if there is an electronic error - but they do not record who was sitting where, if the pretensioner fired, if the airbags fired on impact. Wake up..... if you believe that malarky then don't feel so fancy free next time at the wheel.

You are quite wrong.... I am a retired Ford Electronic Engine Controls Technician, your statements would have been true if this was 1990, but are not true now. Nowadays Technicians can bring up speeds at times of accidents, average speeds of the vehicles and other historical information, it just depends on the car make and model how much info can be brought up...but many of the cars use very similar computer systems, that is why scanners such as the OBD II work on so many vehicles. As far back as ten years ago some of the higher line vehicles had as many as seven computer systems on board. We may not be at the Star Trek level, but neither are we at the Beverly hillbillies level

[F4UCorsair]

you ever asked anyone, especially a Thai person to judge a distance? - they'll often guesstimate something as erroneous as 50m being 200m...

Thus: Don't hold too much credit to the written article, I'd be quite sure that 200m is not a factual measurement.

I understand what you're saying, but many posters are basing the Benz's speed on the motorcycle being 200 meters distant. It would have had to have been a speed unachievable by a sedan to cause that sort of impact, and I mention the 200 meters only in that context.

Edited April 17, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[richard_smith237]

I understand what you're saying, but many posters are basing the Benz's speed on the motorcycle being 200 meters distant. It would have had to have been a speed unachievable by a sedan to cause that sort of impact.

Did you read the article? The bike ended up 200meters away......I doubt a bike could be thrown that far if he was going less than 70-80kmph , not to mention the front of the Merc has all but disintegrated. IF the Merc was speeding then you cannot really say the cop cut him off as he may have had enough time to u turn if the Merc was traveling at the correct speed.

Agreed... The front of that car was smashed in much more than a layman would assume possible when impacting a bike at normal speeds - Thus, someone such as myself who is not experienced in such matters, who has not undergone a study in vehicular impacts etc may assume much higher speeds or an impact with a heavier vehicle are involved.

It's highly possible that given the image of the Mercedes there is more to this story.

...... i.e. is it possible that there was an impact with another heavier vehicle, post or tree etc but for some reason this was omitted from a clumsy report / article ?

[kriswillems]

It's a sad case for everyone. One man died and the other one will probably have to take the full blame and will be ruined for life.
This will destroy the lives of 2 families.

I doubt the 200 meters is correct if the number comes from the police record.
There's not much hope on a fair trial.

[kannot]

Dont forget the Thais ability to pull out of any junction or overtake like a tortoise, when they really need to accelerate hard they actually drive VERY slowly.

[ukrules]

Well one thing that I have learnt from this thread and my short time as a TVF member....................................

If for any reason I am ever dragged before a court for any reason -- I DO NOT want any TVF members in the jury ( assuming I get a jury).

They would have me convicted , sentenced and probably executed within 1 minute of the charges being read.

Let he/she who is without sin caste the first stone .......................................

Don't worry, there's no jury involved in the Thai courts.