Expat volunteers in Chiang Mai denied visas in work permit standoff

[Proboscis]

15 hours ago, taipan1949 said:

"Volunteer" another scam by foreigners to stay in Thailand without following Visa rules. NGO's??? The same NGO's dragging Africans to Europe? The same NGO's coaching illegal immigrants in Mexico how to lie about getting "asylum"? On and on.

If people are setting up NGOs (extremely bureaucratic procedure) so as to hire foreign volunteers (also bureaucratic), this tells you that it is almost impossible for foreigners to stay longer term in the kingdom. Otherwise why would people go to such lengths to get a long term residence permission.

 

For anyone who does not want to be an English teacher, who is too young to retire or who does not meet the documentary requirements of retirement, there is not much else you can do.

[Sydebolle]

Stupid, more stupid, Thai bureaucrats with small Willies ........

[Thaidream]

A real volunteer organization has a Director- is registered in Thailand and has a Board of Directors.  It also has to have a Thailand Tax ID number.  Volunteers are provided work permits under the auspices of the Director and the Labor Department.

 

It appears to me that the Labor Department prior to its current Administration may have been providing Work Permits for 'volunteers' based upon spurious volunteer organizations and the Immigration Department simply providing the extension of stays based upon the Work Permit.

 

Fast forward- a new labor department director sees what is going on and stops it. A proper volunteer organization with the proper permits and setup is welcome in Thailand and will have no problem getting work permits.

 

As  a side note- A Non B is not necessary to get a Work Permit.  A regular Non O is also eligible to apply for a Permit.

[spw888]

Thailand is littered with the rubbish of the world using numerous scams to get fake visas and work permits. From "Volunteers", to fake education visas, fake marriages, fake investments, fake bank accounts, fake companies with fake employees - the list is endless - and no doubt many of the readers here will be utterly indignant falling into one of the various categories available. We all know the problem stems from corrupt practices throughout various government agencies and a good clear out is just what is needed. Having been here almost 20 years, formed my own company from nothing and now employ many tax-paying locals - myself included - and having spent many days sitting in immigration and labour offices over the years to legitimately apply for, pay the prescribed government fees, and be granted visas and work permits - despite being married to a Thai National with Thai citizen children I am delighted every time I read about somebody doing their job properly, not accepting bribes from agents etc., and clearing out some of the trash that gives so many hard-working, law-abiding, genuine expatriate business owners , employees, or retirees, a bad name.

[Kerryd]

For those who actually remember what happened just after the Tsunami in 2004, thousands of "volunteers" flooded (no pun intended) into the area to help out.

 

Thailand discovered that, 6 weeks later, there were still thousands of "volunteers" there and a lot of them were "volunteering" at the beach and bars and the rest were deemed to be "taking jobs from Thais" (i.e. working in construction or whatever) and so Thailand put the brakes on and told those "volunteers" that they needed to get work permits.

 

Suddenly, most of those "volunteers" were gone and things pretty much went back to normal.

As most of us know already, there are thousands (probably 10s of thousands) of foreigners here that do not meet any of the requirements for "long stay" and thus are trying to get by using assorted scams (or by just laying low and hoping nobody notices). 
I'm sure the "volunteer" idea is just one of many (like the Ed Visa) and I'm sure there are "charities" that make a lot (or most) of their income from "sponsoring" volunteers.

 

I looked into some charities back in the mid-90s when I first got out of the Army. What I found was that even the big names were scams in large part. They collect huge amounts of donations, but want everyone to volunteer their time and even pay for their own airfare, food and lodgings in desolate 3rd world countries, while the top management of those charities attend a few fundraisers and pocket 7(+) figure salaries (like the boss of the Red Cross).
What was the one charity, OxFam maybe, that they found out was skimming 90 cents of every dollar donated, to pay "administrative" costs even though it was shown that most of their "aid" was donated and even the expense of flying it to those 3rd world countries was donated, and most of the people distributing the aid were unpaid volunteers. 90% of the money donated was going into the pockets of the top staff of the charity and the other 10% was going towards actual costs.

But like many things, this is Thailand so probably in a couple weeks from now everything will go back to "normal" like it usually seems to do. Maybe with a few less "volunteers" afterwards.

 

[KonJon]

15 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

Our source - who has asked not to be named - said that visas were not being issued because volunteers were being denied work permits. 

He called it a standoff between the new head of the labor department and Chiang Mai immigration. 

Thaivisa understands the labor department in Chiang Mai has not been issuing work permits for foreign volunteers, with immigration then saying "sorry, we can't issue you visas as you don't have a work permit", said the source. 

 

The part of this that confuses me is that my experience has always been you get the Visa (or extension of) and then you get the work permit (or extension of).  

[WHYWHY]

Easy fix don't volunteer let them sort out there own problems 

[Peterw42]

I recall a story from a few years ago, from Cambodia but the same thing possibly happening in Thailand.

 

A guy was running an orphanage, 100% legitimate, permits, charity status, NGO status, tax status, visa's for a couple of his mates etc etc. The guy had branches (with charity status) in western countries, websites etc, He was getting $100,000 dollars a year in legitimate donations.

Turns out (uncovered by a western media) his orphanage cost $10,000 a year to run, a small building, staff, food etc. The rest of the money ($90,000) paid for a 5 bedroom house, maid, cook, a range rover with a driver, 1st class air travel etc. And of course, the Government went out of its way to provide a Visa every year.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Peterw42

[kwilco]

Scam or not this is inappropriate action.EITHER EXPOSE the SCAM with evidence or ISSUE the permits

 

[peterb17]

Does anyone know what the volunteers are actually doing ? 

I know in my home country- there has been a backlash against organisations that charge a small fortune to the middle class gap year students to “volunteer “ 

( looks good on a CV) - then it turns out they do more harm than good . 

 

[CARLO BALDASSARRE]

15 hours ago, taipan1949 said:

"Volunteer" another scam by foreigners to stay in Thailand without following Visa rules. NGO's??? The same NGO's dragging Africans to Europe? The same NGO's coaching illegal immigrants in Mexico how to lie about getting "asylum"? On and on.

Good.. I hope each one of these guys are interviewed for their legitimacy for being in Thailand before visas are issued or extended. 

Good to see the immigration office getting tougher. 

[vinegarbase]

3 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

no doubt many people are abusing the intent of the visas.  I am sure of a few I see posting on youtube blogging and trying make a few bucks a day that way are there in Thailand as "volunteers".  Nothing against volunteers.  So many really do mean well.  But many are there for far from altruistic reasons.  Evangelists, missionaries, that are really there trying to further their church or organization goals than to help the Thais. 

Thailand has an R visa that is reserved to missionaries. Real missionaries are not going to be on this volunteer visa.

 

There is a problem with this whole thing. If the people on volunteer visas actually were not volunteering according to the regulations in the law then it would be a problem but if they are volunteering according to the hours needed then they are just following the law and doing the right thing to be on the volunteer visa. I find it very hypocritical that people are on here complaining about those on a volunteer visa clearly to stay here long term but do the same on tourist, ED visas etc or have done so themselves in the past. 

 

The whole purpose of this is the same as always. Thailand doesn't want foreigners staying long term in their country. Everything is being reserved for the Chinese who either come start a business or stay for 2 weeks, spend money and then go back home. Thailand is for the Chinese now.

Edited August 2, 2018 by vinegarbase

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, chivo said:

But the christian missionaries give help with strings attached. It’s a trade. You join their club, they give you medicine. I’ve researched how they forbid Akha from singing their traditional songs. How the forbid the akha from worshipping their own ancestors and instruct them to worship christian ancestors. 

Yes i dont like that too but the alternative is to starve?  no education?  as i said 'half a loaf'

[Berkshire]

34 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

A real volunteer organization has a Director- is registered in Thailand and has a Board of Directors.  It also has to have a Thailand Tax ID number.  Volunteers are provided work permits under the auspices of the Director and the Labor Department.

 

It appears to me that the Labor Department prior to its current Administration may have been providing Work Permits for 'volunteers' based upon spurious volunteer organizations and the Immigration Department simply providing the extension of stays based upon the Work Permit.

 

Fast forward- a new labor department director sees what is going on and stops it. A proper volunteer organization with the proper permits and setup is welcome in Thailand and will have no problem getting work permits.

 

As  a side note- A Non B is not necessary to get a Work Permit.  A regular Non O is also eligible to apply for a Permit.

One of the more reasonable post on this thread.

 

As a side note, I wonder if my home country (USA) has a volunteer visa?  Then all these "illegal immigrants" would magically disappear.  They'd all be volunteers!

[gigman]

Same thing happened with education visa.

People was abusing it  .

[lometogo]

16 hours ago, Briggsy said:

How many of these volunteers are evangelists?

Praise the lord! Somebody call Donny Trump. He’s the workd’s most powerful man—am sure he can sort it out. 

[HooHaa]

16 hours ago, Briggsy said:

How many of these volunteers are evangelists?

That is the question. Many of the volunteers are asking for more than nothing. 

 

They want souls.

[Vacuum]

44 minutes ago, Proboscis said:

For anyone who does not want to be an English teacher, who is too young to retire or who does not meet the documentary requirements of retirement, there is not much else you can do.

You can get married to a Thai.

[AsiaHand]

16 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

You couldn't make this stuff up...sheesh

 

They are trying to HELP, they are asking for NOTHING IN RETURN

 

Unbelieveable

Only when envelops are received will anything proceed.The Government of LOS does nothing for free,even to accepting free help. AxxHxxes

[rosst]

17 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I can see their point, there have been loads of white foreign bogus volunteers in CM getting VISAs.

You pay an agent, they set you up with a charity, you get a 1 year VISA for turning up for 1 or 2 days.

I've known at least two guys in the past who did this (both under 50s).

Yes, and herein lies the problem, the crooked few Vs the genuine many, I was offered this deal, disgraceful Thai crooks are the agents. 

[Yann55]

16 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

You couldn't make this stuff up...sheesh

 

They are trying to HELP, they are asking for NOTHING IN RETURN

 

Unbelieveable

 

Paul... what planet do you live on ?

 

A vast majority of these 'NGO-guys', especially in the North, are backed up by religious institutions - most of them in the US - who DO have an agenda, and sadly there's nothing selfless, generous or touching about it.

 

Their primary 'target' are the poor 'tribal' people who live in the North of Thailand and have always been treated by Thai authorities as second-class citizens (3 of the Tham Luang 'Wild Boars' + coach Ake are in that situation).

 

You know, of course, that 'helping the poor in underprivileged zones' was/is how the ultra fundamentalist Wahabi and Salafi Muslims from Saudi Arabia and other rich Middle Eastern countries worm their way into areas like Aceh (North Sumatra) and so many others. In their case, I'm sure that you are (and quite rightly so) indignant. But where Western missionaries (yes, that's what most of them are) are concerned, you're willing to take everything at face value ?

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Yann55

[thurien]

16 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I can see their point, there have been loads of white foreign bogus volunteers in CM getting VISAs.

You pay an agent, they set you up with a charity, you get a 1 year VISA for turning up for 1 or 2 days.

I've known at least two guys in the past who did this (both under 50s).

 e.g.: Once you "subscribe" with one of the influential, prosperous NGOs in PnomPenh next thing you get is a Toyota Land Cruiser (6cyl., big thing) and sufficient funds for hanging out every night at Riverside, sipping red wine, going for Cambo chicks...good life, indeed. Seen plenty of these French passport holders (port of origin: Algeria, Tunesia and the like)

[Vacuum]

In short; Thailand does not want 'outside' help, it could result in loss of face.

[My Thai Life]

These "volunteers" are  not really volunteers anyway, they are on very nice relocation packages.

 

A vile scam which exploits the poorest in the hills.

 

Glad to see the back of them.

 

Maybe their NGOs will send them to spread their word in Saudi, or muslim Nigeria, or Malaysia or Indonesia... now that I would support.

 

 

[jimster]

16 hours ago, moontang said:

A high percentage are undereducated, unskilled, negative worth pricks, who left bigger messes at home to come save the world in Chiang Mai.  Apparently, the numerous dodgy guesthouses no longer have mirrors.

 

And thank you so much for feeding all the SO I dogs, a great humanitarian effort.  Keep up the good work, maybe CM will be entirely alcohol free soon.  Jesus would have wanted it that way..Buddha, too.

There are a fair few (though much smaller numbers) of these types in Mae Sot and surrounding areas "helping" Burmese refugees. Most are young western women. Sure, some are legit but I am skeptical about all this now that the resident Burmese refugee population has started to dwindle with many returning to their native country thanks to greater peace and stability back home.

 

Some of these young women volunteers seem to think they are better than everyone else and know everything, but in reality they know nothing. They denigrate Myanmar and say it's not safe at all, ignoring all the progress that has been made over the past 5-6 years. I'm not sure they're just making this up to justify their continued presence in Mae Sot but the fact is they're not going to save the world. Few of them have any transferable skills apart from being ultra altruistic "progressive" types.

[jimster]

11 minutes ago, thurien said:

 e.g.: Once you "subscribe" with one of the influential, prosperous NGOs in PnomPenh next thing you get is a Toyota Land Cruiser (6cyl., big thing) and sufficient funds for hanging out every night at Riverside, sipping red wine, going for Cambo chicks...good life, indeed. Seen plenty of these French passport holders (port of origin: Algeria, Tunesia and the like) 

Used to see the same thing in Laos back in 2003, lots of western NGO types with their whole families, wives, kids and all (from their home countries) driving around in Land Cruisers in Vientiane and Savannakhet eating at expensive restaurants doing nothing to help the locals and certainly nothing that looks like work. In more recent years, it seems many of these guys have started to disappear and those replacing them are getting younger, are now female and poorer...lol. Instead of middle aged Scandinavian men driving SUVs with their families in tow and hanging out at the riverfront all day, nowadays you either see a Lao person in the driver's seat or some naive "I'm going to save the world" 20 something western girl riding a bicycle through the streets of Vientiane while newly rich locals zoom past in their BMWs, Porsches and Bentleys splashing dust or mud in her face.

 

As for Cambodia, yes, still see that a little bit too but it's not as widespread or obvious as it was when I first visited there in 2003 and just like in Laos, for upcountry expeditions Cambodian drivers seem to have replaced the self-driving middle aged westerners from 15-20 years ago.

[moontang]

most of the NGOs  give fake statistics in order to keep the administrative wheels greased, complete with private schools, SUVs, and a house in a western style moo baan.

[1337markus]

2 hours ago, MrMo said:

Fired ! ? ! ?   Thai government personnel don't get FIRED.   They just get put on inactive duties to wait out for a nice early retirement followed by a nice little pension.   I have this mental image of a gigantic warehouse out near Don Mueng airport full of Thais in uniform with their feet up on desks.

Seems a lot of hatred towards the volunteers here in this thread. There are always 2 sides to the story. CNX Immigration is a total failure since the new " boss" took over wanting his tea money increased from agents. This week I was caught out by the Monday holiday immigration was shut, but every other shop in the Promenada complex was open. returned Tuesday afternoon. We have Saturday, Sunday, Monday as no open days and many TM 30 people reporting. The number system, bits of paper they hand out had died they were too lazy to put recycled numbers in the spot you collect numbers from, many people walking around confused. I counted 6 IMO sitting in desks doing nothing while 2 women tried to handle the back log that grew every second.  No one that worked there helped them. people kept interrupting them with asking for a number, or what number were they up to and then there are the Thai people " dont you know who I am" jumping the queue.  For a 1 minute process I waited 3.5 hours, welcome to the 19th century.  Can we borrow some workers with a brain from the DM warehouse?

[Vacuum]

2 hours ago, suzannegoh said:

Farangs seem to deeply object to evangelicals having a similar standard of living here as they would back home.  I can't count how many times I've heard farangs complain about them eating at Duke's.  "What horrible people, spending 1000 Baht on a meal. For that I could get 12 beers at Mad Dogs!"  Seems to be some envy at play there.

I was responding/reacting to "they have a "call", posted by balo. And regaeding your first sentence, having "similar standard of living here as they would back home". Nothing wrong with that, but in this case it's from tax payers money, not their own.

And envy has nothing to do with this.

[moontang]

3 minutes ago, 1337markus said:

Seems a lot of hatred towards the volunteers here in this thread. There are always 2 sides to the story. CNX Immigration is a total failure since the new " boss" took over wanting his tea money increased from agents. This week I was caught out by the Monday holiday immigration was shut, but every other shop in the Promenada complex was open. returned Tuesday afternoon. We have Saturday, Sunday, Monday as no open days and many TM 30 people reporting. The number system, bits of paper they hand out had died they were too lazy to put recycled numbers in the spot you collect numbers from, many people walking around confused. I counted 6 IMO sitting in desks doing nothing while 2 women tried to handle the back log that grew every second.  No one that worked there helped them. people kept interrupting them with asking for a number, or what number were they up to and then there are the Thai people " dont you know who I am" jumping the queue.  For a 1 minute process I waited 3.5 hours, welcome to the 19th century.  Can we borrow some workers with a brain from the DM warehouse?

was that for simply a new departure card/same address report?  If so, that really bites the big one.  They let those kind of play through last time, and I was out in a few minutes, but a dozen were obviously suffering.