Come back Farangs! Tourism in Chiang Mai decimated by Chinese exodus

[bkk6060]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Sour puritanism doesn't help, but primarily there has been a slump in China.  

They have had 10 years of huge growth.

If there is ever a recession in China (at some point there has to be) the world will suffer some as Chinese are traveling every where now.

[sambum]

1 hour ago, bkk6060 said:

They have had 10 years of huge growth.

If there is ever a recession in China (at some point there has to be) the world will suffer some as Chinese are traveling every where now.

I think the world is already suffering some due to the Chinese travelling everywhere! ????

[chrisandsu]

Chang mai has a little bit of hua hin about it, obviously without the sea . It’s nice enough but actually quite a boring place to spend a holiday . I was there as a single man 15 years ago and I didn’t stick around long , I went back last year with the whole family and remembered why I left sharpish before ! If you are in your 50/60s it may have enough to keep you there but as a mid 30 person it’s like waiting to die . 

[bkk6060]

I am here for several days.

"Decimated" is not how I would describe it at all seems lots of people walking around, eating etc.. Typical also lots of Chinese at Maya and Nimman.

As far as Falang especially US this is their Christmas season do not expect them rushing to Thailand as most stay home with families for the next month or so.

[simoh1490]

2 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

Chang mai has a little bit of hua hin about it, obviously without the sea . It’s nice enough but actually quite a boring place to spend a holiday . I was there as a single man 15 years ago and I didn’t stick around long , I went back last year with the whole family and remembered why I left sharpish before ! If you are in your 50/60s it may have enough to keep you there but as a mid 30 person it’s like waiting to die . 

Absolutely no comparison between 15 years ago and today, only the name is the same.

[garyk]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Absolutely no comparison between 15 years ago and today, only the name is the same.

About 11 years ago I lived there for about a year. It was ok. Not sure about now?

[ChakaKhan]

9 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Absolutely no comparison between 15 years ago and today, only the name is the same.

same same but different.....

[chrisandsu]

10 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Absolutely no comparison between 15 years ago and today, only the name is the same.

Oh yeah there is a few more shops .... totally different .

[simoh1490]

5 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

Oh yeah there is a few more shops .... totally different .

15 years ago CM was sleepyville, then after the Bangkok floods in 2011 everything changed and the population swelled massively. The second and third ring roads were completed and widened making it easier to get into and out of CM, three new large malls were constructed, a new hospital, the neimen heiman entertainment area of restaurants/hotels/shops was redeveloped, a new bus station, along with all the new one off shops and restaurants that didn't exist before - 15 years ago it was difficult to easily find western food and restaurants outside of the two branches of Rimping and the fast food joints at Airport Plaza, today they exist everywhere and Rimping has five stores selling western food, movie complexes have gone from two to five, the airport has added a new international terminal, 

 

Totally totally different.

[chingmai331]

Unless the city fathers adopt some kind of 'green city' program there will hardly be a tree or patch of undeveloped ground in all of CM, in 5 yrs time. Construction of new housing (condos, hotels esp) is sucking up every possible spot. 

New parking lots and highways to serve the unrestrained vehicle traffic also  commands the loss of tree/green.  

A shame really.  Note the illegal loss of green on Doi Suthep National Park due to housing for civil servants. 

Population pressure, easy money for vehicle purchase, secret cash for govt agents, and of course normal human greed all play their role in this modern drama.

 

[chrisandsu]

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

15 years ago CM was sleepyville, then after the Bangkok floods in 2011 everything changed and the population swelled massively. The second and third ring roads were completed and widened making it easier to get into and out of CM, three new large malls were constructed, a new hospital, the neimen heiman entertainment area of restaurants/hotels/shops was redeveloped, a new bus station, along with all the new one off shops and restaurants that didn't exist before - 15 years ago it was difficult to easily find western food and restaurants outside of the two branches of Rimping and the fast food joints at Airport Plaza, today they exist everywhere and Rimping has five stores selling western food, movie complexes have gone from two to five, the airport has added a new international terminal, 

 

Totally totally different.

So what I said wasn’t wrong then ? I few more shops does not add to entertainment . The city is a sleepy backwater that’s suitable (if your an expat) to someone in their 60s . As a tourist it’s the kind of place you go for a weekend . If city life is your thing ,Bangkok would be a much better option . Chang Mai is like living in the suburbs , quant enough but not somewhere you would look for excitement . 

[neeray]

3 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

So what I said wasn’t wrong then ? I few more shops does not add to entertainment . The city is a sleepy backwater that’s suitable (if your an expat) to someone in their 60s . As a tourist it’s the kind of place you go for a weekend . If city life is your thing ,Bangkok would be a much better option . Chang Mai is like living in the suburbs , quant enough but not somewhere you would look for excitement . 

Well summarized. Maybe that's why it "works for me".

[chrisandsu]

2 minutes ago, neeray said:

Well summarized. Maybe that's why it "works for me".

Absolutely . Different horses for different courses . I find that with a lot of places I visit in Thailand . Hua hin is too much like a generic Spanish town to me , Pattaya is too sleazy ! Where the right balance is I have no idea ?

[bkk6060]

1 hour ago, chrisandsu said:

Absolutely . Different horses for different courses . I find that with a lot of places I visit in Thailand . Hua hin is too much like a generic Spanish town to me , Pattaya is too sleazy ! Where the right balance is I have no idea ?

Try Myanmar it truly is the future of Asia and might be what you are looking for.

[balo]

On 11/21/2018 at 9:44 AM, webfact said:

Chiang Mai News quoted operators as saying that negative incidents and the resulting adverse social media comment had affected the Chinese tourism market considerably. 

Good news indeed. 

 

[sambum]

On 11/25/2018 at 11:21 AM, bkk6060 said:

I am here for several days.

"Decimated" is not how I would describe it at all seems lots of people walking around, eating etc.. Typical also lots of Chinese at Maya and Nimman.

As far as Falang especially US this is their Christmas season do not expect them rushing to Thailand as most stay home with families for the next month or so.

"As far as Falang especially US this is their Christmas season"

 

It has always been the "Falang" Christmas season during the Thai "High Season", but it used to be a lot busier than it has been of recent years, and this is because the "Land of Smiles" is not considered by tourists as the attractive place that it used to be.

 

IMHO this is due to the negative publicity, (Koh Tao etc), the low exchange rate, (When I first came here I was getting 73 baht to 1 British pound - now it's down to 42 baht), and the fact that the country is being run by a military junta that is perceived as not having visitors' interests down as one of their highest priorities (regardless of TAT's continual optimistic statistics). The last point will not only have a negative effect on the numbers of repeat visitors, but they will also be letting their views be known to friends and relations, which is in effect a "double whammy" for Thailand's tourist trade.

 

 

[mommysboy]

Chiang Mai, amongst other destinations, thrived when there was a never ending procession of 2 week millionaire 'playboys', and a like number of good time girls to alleviate them of their heavy wallets.  It was big money going direct in to the local economy where it was most needed.  As economic strategy goes, you can't better it- economists should take note.

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, sambum said:

"As far as Falang especially US this is their Christmas season"

 

It has always been the "Falang" Christmas season during the Thai "High Season", but it used to be a lot busier than it has been of recent years, and this is because the "Land of Smiles" is not considered by tourists as the attractive place that it used to be.

 

IMHO this is due to the negative publicity, (Koh Tao etc), the low exchange rate, (When I first came here I was getting 73 baht to 1 British pound - now it's down to 42 baht), and the fact that the country is being run by a military junta that is perceived as not having visitors' interests down as one of their highest priorities (regardless of TAT's continual optimistic statistics). The last point will not only have a negative effect on the numbers of repeat visitors, but they will also be letting their views be known to friends and relations, which is in effect a "double whammy" for Thailand's tourist trade.

 

 

Good points. It's mostly about pounds in pockets (lack of) and the exchange rate.  Sadly, 73 baht to the pound was the exception.  42 baht-while low- is nearer to the norm.

 

Yes, dumb rules like banning vaping don't help.  And puritanism doesn't suit Thai tourism, any more than a jobby in a swimming pool.

Edited November 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[sambum]

Just as a matter of interest - An average Yearly Rates conversion for the last 10 years (Baht to the British Pound)   31 Dec 2008	60.99979
31 Dec 2009	53.66845
31 Dec 2010	49.013664
31 Dec 2011	48.886638
31 Dec 2012	49.23624
31 Dec 2013	48.0935
31 Dec 2014	53.513156
31 Dec 2015	52.362552
31 Dec 2016	47.853392
31 Dec 2017	43.691437
26 Nov 2018	43.276291

[observer90210]

Good...this will give a good lesson to the taxi cheats and other crooks who scam tourists/expat retirees with over charged prices, rude attitudes, dual pricing, harsh immigration policies and so on....

[simoh1490]

17 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

So what I said wasn’t wrong then ? I few more shops does not add to entertainment . The city is a sleepy backwater that’s suitable (if your an expat) to someone in their 60s . As a tourist it’s the kind of place you go for a weekend . If city life is your thing ,Bangkok would be a much better option . Chang Mai is like living in the suburbs , quant enough but not somewhere you would look for excitement . 

What you wrote above is fairly accurate I think, I just wanted to make the point that more than just a few more shops have been added in the past 15 years. It's also worth mentioning that CM is never going to be a Bangkok and will never have the same big city options that Bangkok has, just as there is only one London and other cities don't come close.

[fforest1]

On 11/21/2018 at 4:01 PM, donnacha said:

Thailand spent 50 years building up a strong brand in the West as an idyllic tourist destination, but the junta turned against Western tourism because Western governments (most notably John Kerry as US Secretary of State) gently asked about when the promised election would be, causing them to lose face.

The Chinese government ask no such questions and are happy to loan the money for the sort of major infrastructural projects that will allow the generals to keep socking away billions in their Swiss bank accounts for as long as they can cling onto power. (It is worth noting that new Malaysian government has rejected all such Chinese schemes as being a terrible deal that would leave their people with debt and other problems for decades to come).

Part of the necessary narrative was that China is the future, while the West is over, we don't need them, their tourists are low-quality, they have been short-changing Thailand for decades. The worst offenders were the farangs who had been visiting most often and who had the deepest ties to Thailand. That was why they made visas so much tougher and introduced ridiculous hurdles such as having to carry 20K in cash. The underlying message was "On the whole, we'd rather you didn't come here".

The familiar old Western tourism was not as exciting as the dizzying rise in Chinese tourism, mainly propelled by an (at the time) attractive exchange rate, a bubble economy in China, and the impact of Lost in Thailand, which became the highest grossing movie of all time in China when it was released in 2012. That made the idea of visiting Thailand fashionable, but fashions fade over time.

The Chinese will continue to come in large numbers, that is not going to change, and the also potentially huge wave of Indian tourists has not really even started yet, but no number of emerging countries are ever going to become a permanent replacement for the deeply entrenched Western tourism that the junta decided to piss away. We saw this with the Russians, with the Thai government making all sorts of specials deals such as eliminating airport taxes for Russian planes, and in they flooded for a few years, but now where are they?

If the junta do reduce Tourist Visa red-tape to the pre-junta levels, as rumored, that would indicate a realization, at some level, that they made a mistake, but the damage is already done and will take many years to reverse. Enough people are now aware of the possibility of being refused entry for some trivial reason, obliterating the previous image of Thailand as being "sabai sabai", a tropical idyll where you didn't have to deal with the red-tape of life at home.

Thailand is still, of course, a fine vacation destination in many ways, but it is no longer as easy to recommend as it once was. It has all been very foolish, entirely unnecessary, and very sad when you consider the amount of regular money that has been taken away from the parts of Thai society who needed it most - who, now, will pay the vet bills for all those sick buffalos? 

This was a very smart and insightful post.....Great post....

[GeorgeCross]

On 11/21/2018 at 4:46 PM, moe666 said:

You were doing great until you glossed over the reason Russians stop coming failing to mention that it was economic down turn in Russia and nothing to do with Thailand or any of there policies. European and American down turn still hasn't totally recovered from 2008 although it does appear to be about over. The fact that a few people are refused entry because of an appearance of living here with the stamps and multiply tourist visas is not one of the pressing concerns of the occassional tourist who probably knows nothing about that particular crack down. 

 

very true but its not the visa issues my friends get galled by its things like 'leave your vape at home', 'get an int'l driving license', 'everything's closed now at 12', etc, etc..

 

- they are like <deleted> happened to free and easy Thailand??

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, fforest1 said:

This was a very smart and insightful post.....Great post....

Before you get acarried away with it, a few points to note:

 

The junta didn't turn against Western tourism just because Kerry asked when the elections were going to be held, in fact the governement has never turned against tourism per se. What they have done is to try and close the many loop holes that have made Thailands borders so porous and become viewed as a very relaxed and easy country to hide in. The problem has been the foriegners who have tried to scam the visa system in various ways and use Thailand as a place to hide - we saw that with people  abusing Ed. visa's, border visa runs for years at a time, marriage visa's for proxies, company home ownership and of course forged, faked and fabricated letters of income. All of that has resulted in an external view that tourism is being suppressed whereas in fact it's simply being normalised to become more like other countries and reduce the potential for abuse. Case in point the post above, " whatever happened to free and easy Thailand"....they started enforcing the rules, that's what happened.

 

Western tourism has never been Thailand's panacea, westerners have been tolerated as tourists until they overstepped the bounds (see above) - in economic terms western tourists represnent a small percentage of total tourist numbers and a very small percentage of overall GDP. RUssian tourism was also totlerated for the same reasons, that fell apart because the Russian Rouble tanked and Thailand became too expensive for RUssian tourists, a similar reason as to why Chinese mass tourism is now in decline.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by simoh1490

[GeorgeCross]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:36 PM, BritManToo said:

Base it on VISA, 90 day reporting, immigration corruption, TM30 nonsense ....... Thailand is a loser.

Base it on mysterious foreigner deaths ..... Thailand is a loser.

Base it on dual pricing ....... Thailand is a loser.

 

Vietnam and the Phillippines are way easier now.

But cannabis may change all that.

 

only if the doctors here hand it out like they do benzo's.. ????

 

 

[fforest1]

15 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Before you get acarried away with it, a few points to note:

 

The junta didn't turn against Western tourism just because Kerry asked when the elections were going to be held, in fact the governement has never turned against tourism per se. What they have done is to try and close the many loop holes that have made Thailands borders so porous and become viewed as a very relaxed and easy country to hide in. The problem has been the foriegners who have tried to scam the visa system in various ways and use Thailand as a place to hide - we saw that with people  abusing Ed. visa's, border visa runs for years at a time, marriage visa's for proxies, company home ownership and of course forged, faked and fabricated letters of income. All of that has resulted in an external view that tourism is being suppressed whereas in fact it's simply being normalised to become more like other countries and reduce the potential for abuse.

 

Western tourism has never been Thailand's panacea, westerners have been tolerated as tourists until they overstepped the bounds (see above) - in economic terms western tourists represnent a small percentage of total tourist numbers and a very small percentage of overall GDP. RUssian tourism was also totlerated for the same reasons, that fell apart because the Russian Rouble tanked and Thailand became too expensive for RUssian tourists, a similar reason as to why Chinese mass tourism is now in decline.

 

 

So I guess farang criminals will just have to buy the elite visa now and they will be good to go... I think the visa crackdowns had little to do with keeping criminals out....

[simoh1490]

Just now, fforest1 said:

So I guess farang criminals will just have to buy the elite visa now and they will be good to go... I think the visa crackdowns had little to do with keeping criminals out....

The governement has been cracking down on these things for years, only recently has the Big Joke angle seen the issue get more attention in the media. It's one thing to hold a legit Elite visa because it means the visa holder will have been checked to some degree and the country knows the visa holder is here....they are on the radar. Contrast that against the person who overstays and dissappears or tries to live and work here full time on tourist visa's etc who hasn't been checked and who hasn't got the funds to live here unaided...they are under the radar.

[JimmyJ]

On 11/21/2018 at 1:01 AM, donnacha said:  "That was why they made visas so much tougher and introduced ridiculous hurdles such as having to carry 20K in cash. The underlying message was 'On the whole, we'd rather you didn't come here'. "

 

It continually amazes me that carrying 20k THB (~$600 USD) in cash is seen as an onerous task and a "ridiculous hurdle".

 

Can Thai Immigration look at a credit/debit card and know that it is an open working account, the amount of credit available, etc.?

Edited November 27, 2018 by JimmyJ

[chrisandsu]

6 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

What you wrote above is fairly accurate I think, I just wanted to make the point that more than just a few more shops have been added in the past 15 years. It's also worth mentioning that CM is never going to be a Bangkok and will never have the same big city options that Bangkok has, just as there is only one London and other cities don't come close.

Once the rail link from China to bkk is completed Chiang Mai would certainly be a suitable place to drop off for a weekend to split the journey up . A weekend is about perfect to visit and get pretty much everything out of chang Mai you need . One thing I have to add is the prettiest women in Thailand are in northern Thailand ! I like that fair skin ????

[chrisandsu]

21 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Try Myanmar it truly is the future of Asia and might be what you are looking for.

Could well be , doesn’t quite have the infrastructure yet though . My perfect city would probably have a nice surburban area for families , a little bit of tourism , a touch of sleaze , good night life , plenty of jobs , plenty of parks and green space , affordable housing , does it exist ?