After 11 years in Chiang Mai, I was Denied Entry

[KCM]

5 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

I'm also curious to know how many other people are being denied and getting stamped as having no money when you actually do.

Last year I arrived at BKK from Japan on Thai Air in business class and was denied entry. I was not asked to show money and was told I was being denied entry because the IO thought I was working in Thailand which was not true.

 

I also chose to fly to Cambodia even though at first the Thai Air staff said I had to fly back to Japan or to the U.S. I refused those options and booked a Thai Air roundtrip ticket online to Phnom Penh. The Thai Air staff who had my passport told me the stamp in my passport said I was denied for not having enough money with me.

 

The next morning in Phnom Penh I took my passport to Luck Motorcycle Rental and had them handle getting my Thai tourist visa for me. The next day I had my passport with the tourist visa and a few days later I flew back on Thai Air to BKK and was admitted without any questions.

 

So based on my personal experience, you don't need to get a new passport before getting your visa. Not only did I come back a few days later with a tourist visa, I'm in Thailand now with that same passport with an OA visa.

[Old Croc]

Most countries don't allow residence using tourist visas. All have special arrangements (visas) for long term stays.

Thailand has such systems in place, but, because of many factors, corruption the most obvious, hasn't always enforced them. The result has been wide open borders and problems with overstayers, illegal workers, scammers and criminals.

They now seem to be enforcing these rules more stringently and people who have previously taken advantage of the system are whining. As someone who put up the 800k and jumped through the hoops, I have no sympathy.

The OP has stated he has lived here for 11 years on temporary visas or visa free entry. He used education visas or 7 years before stopping because the rules had become ridiculous! Possibly the need to prove attendance at the institution?

He considers (and many here seem to agree) that the existence of easy entry facilities for genuine tourists means he should be allowed to use such systems to enter and live in the country at will. Many still think that a visa granted at an embassy gives automatic right of entry and can't be overruled at the point of entry!! 

And there's this - "I contort my face cause i havn't had a job for 15 years, i don't need to work."   Congratulations, you achieved what I always aspired to.  Why not simply buy the cheap, for you, Elite Visa?

 

The only surprise for me was that you were allowed to live in the country for so long in this way.  Yes, the IO staff at the border can be rude, are badly trained and react angrily when confronted by loud arrogant passengers, but the decision was correct. Perhaps your attitude led the way - "A short annoying tomboy officer raises her voice and says "why you in out so many times?"

They should, however,  learn to explain their reasons more clearly.

[dbrenn]

ไม่มีปัจจัยยังชีพ translates more directly to 'doesn't have a current occupation'

 

It seems like they're expecting tourists to be doing something for a living somewhere else, unless of course you pony up the cash for an Elite visa. Times have changed. 

[Old Croc]

1 minute ago, dbrenn said:

ไม่มีปัจจัยยังชีพ translates more directly to 'doesn't have a current occupation'

 

It seems like they're expecting tourists to be doing something for a living somewhere else, unless of course you pony up the cash for an Elite visa. Times have changed. 

By his own admission he's not a tourist.

[Old Croc]

1 hour ago, mngmn said:

Find it interesting (but not surprising) that TV members attack the OP but say nothing about the appalling behaviour of the IOs.  Thai IOs should be made to watch the Australian Border Security show for some pointers on how to interact with passengers politely (even when the passenger is breaking the law).I

Do you think they're always so professional when the cameras aren't running? ????

[steve187]

they seem to be cracking down on frequent flyers at dmk, but 7 yaers on ed visa, only to stop when the 90 day rule was enforced, so not really at school, to be living here almost permanently under 50 the only visa is an elite visa, as i have always said get the correct visa for what you are doing, all the visa abuse is what causes all the visa changes, affects the good guys

[balo]

10 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

By his own admission he's not a tourist.

Maybe his old aunt was rich and he inherited some money to live on ? 

 

There are many reasons why people don't have to work.  

Thailand should not deny people who are not stealing jobs from Thais. 

 

[mokwit]

23 minutes ago, dbrenn said:

ไม่มีปัจจัยยังชีพ translates more directly to 'doesn't have a current occupation'

 

It seems like they're expecting tourists to be doing something for a living somewhere else, unless of course you pony up the cash for an Elite visa. Times have changed. 

You could very loosely interpret that as 'seems not to have permanent residence elsewhere'

 

My prediction is that in the future evidence of permanent residence elsewhere will be required for Elite V - this will not bother the original perceived market - someone flying in from HK/wherever to stay at their Phuket villa a few times a year.

[Old Croc]

10 minutes ago, balo said:

Maybe his old aunt was rich and he inherited some money to live on ? 

 

There are many reasons why people don't have to work.  

Thailand should not deny people who are not stealing jobs from Thais. 

 

When you take up residence in another country you are not a tourist, no matter how rich you are! 

I repeat, there are special visas to allow such residence and good reasons for people to be properly identified as a resident, not a temporary entrant.

[kevin612]

They denied the entry because you are here too long after reading your story. It’s not about the money.

[BritTim]

First, the 180-day rule they quoted you is not a real rule. That said, the have been given discretion to decide whether to grant visa exempt entry, as explained in earlier posts. This is actually logical as the Immigration Bureau applies the rules around visa exemptions. That said, even if you had a tourist visa, there is a real chance you could be denied at Don Muang, even though officially immigration is not empowered to decide on conditions for granting tourist visas.

 

I have fantasised over what might happen if you had a tourist visas, a prefilled TM11 form, informed them you intended to appeal, and asked them to sign a statement saying that you were being denied entry for being in Thailand too long as a tourist. I am not recommending that course of action, but it is fun to think about.

[BobBKK]

I am very sorry for your experience but a tourist visa?  after 11 years?  surely you expect it to end one day? you are not a tourist? I do understand that you are under 50 and that is why I waited many years before I retired here @50 coming in once or twice a year for a couple of weeks as a TOURIST. Lose your passport get an O visa and put 800k in the bank.

[ThaiBunny]

20 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

When you take up residence in another country you are not a tourist, no matter how rich you are! 

I repeat, there are special visas to allow such residence and good reasons for people to be properly identified as a resident, not a temporary entrant.

Almost no Westerner is a resident here as that word is commonly understood; we are all guests, temporarily permitted to stay a year at a time, even if we're married to someone who is a resident

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, KCM said:

Last year I arrived at BKK from Japan on Thai Air in business class and was denied entry. I was not asked to show money and was told I was being denied entry because the IO thought I was working in Thailand which was not true.

 

I also chose to fly to Cambodia even though at first the Thai Air staff said I had to fly back to Japan or to the U.S. I refused those options and booked a Thai Air roundtrip ticket online to Phnom Penh. The Thai Air staff who had my passport told me the stamp in my passport said I was denied for not having enough money with me.

 

The next morning in Phnom Penh I took my passport to Luck Motorcycle Rental and had them handle getting my Thai tourist visa for me. The next day I had my passport with the tourist visa and a few days later I flew back on Thai Air to BKK and was admitted without any questions.

 

So based on my personal experience, you don't need to get a new passport before getting your visa. Not only did I come back a few days later with a tourist visa, I'm in Thailand now with that same passport with an OA visa.

So they could not have stamped your passport 'denied entry'?  if they had how could anyone get you a new visa?

[Kelsall]

Time for all of us to wake up and smell the coffee.  We go by their rules, both written and unwritten, and they are changing and enforcement is changing. 

 

We are no longer God's gift to the Thai economy or to Thai women.

[edwardandtubs]

OP, thanks for the tip about not signing but I am curious how someone with your knowledge was not aware that flying in to Don Muang with a long stay history and no tourist visa was inevitably going to lead to refusal of entry.

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

She explains that last year 2018 i spent more than 180 days in the country as a tourist and that's against the law. 

I ask her what act i'm actually in violation of as I can't find that in the immigration act.

She says "because you need to look deeper"

Ok, but you are enforcing it you can't tell me what's the number so i can look it up.

Just more silence refuses to answer.

Because she is lying, and is the one taking part in a criminal-conspiracy which victimizes many visitors. 

 

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

I open my passport and there's a stamp in there. It says the reason i was denied was "ไม่มีปัจจัยยังชีพ" i think the exact term means no subsistence or no way of supporting oneself, basically no money. 

They denied you for an unlawful reason, and to avoid putting their criminal-behavior down on paper, they put a "real reason" which doesn't apply to you, instead.

 

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

Only reason i'm writing this is that i hope if someone reads this don't sign the damn paper, tell them you don't want to go in you'll buy a ticket out right now, i was lucky i flew with air asia as they have flights all the time and it was their responsibility to get me outta their.

Remember, Don't sign it! If you go to detention you have to pay for that privilege and your airline no longer has to help you out. 

Good call.  Not signing is no guarantee they won't put you in detention (has happened to others), but why "admit guilt" to their crime, and give them an out?

 

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

I'm also curious to know how many other people are being denied and getting stamped as having no money when you actually do.

Many reports - one after the other.  Only at the criminal-run entry points, though.  All land-borders except Aranya/Poipet are fine.  No bad reports out of CM Airport either, if one has a Tourist Visa. 

[cleopatra2]

21 minutes ago, BritTim said:

First, the 180-day rule they quoted you is not a real rule. That said, the have been given discretion to decide whether to grant visa exempt entry, as explained in earlier posts. This is actually logical as the Immigration Bureau applies the rules around visa exemptions. That said, even if you had a tourist visa, there is a real chance you could be denied at Don Muang, even though officially immigration is not empowered to decide on conditions for granting tourist visas.

 

I have fantasised over what might happen if you had a tourist visas, a prefilled TM11 form, informed them you intended to appeal, and asked them to sign a statement saying that you were being denied entry for being in Thailand too long as a tourist. I am not recommending that course of action, but it is fun to think about.

I am under the impression that TM11 is for persons who fall under section 22 of the immigration act. Persons who have actually entered the Kingdom , and does not cover persons denied entry.

[NCC1701A]

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

i'm no English teacher nor do i look like I have no money, as if that has anything to do with anything.

it has everything to do with everything in Thailand. Class and status. You are being judged 24/7.

 

6 hours ago, chrisc38 said:

A short annoying tomboy officer raises her voice and says "why you in out so many times?"

don't ask me this question.

4 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Happy and a bit stupid is the way to go

that's me. I pay 100% more for everything.

[Olmate]

18 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Because she is lying, and is the one taking part in a criminal-conspiracy which victimizes many visitors. 

 

They denied you for an unlawful reason, and to avoid putting their criminal-behavior down on paper, they put a "real reason" which doesn't apply to you, instead.

 

Good call.  Not signing is no guarantee they won't put you in detention (has happened to others), but why "admit guilt" to their crime, and give them an out?

 

Many reports - one after the other.  Only at the criminal-run entry points, though.  All land-borders except Aranya/Poipet are fine.  No bad reports out of CM Airport either, if one has a Tourist Visa. 

Any similar bad reports at Phuket, I’ve not heard of any?

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, brokenbone said:

guessing income not verified by embassy or money transfer to thai bank, but even then your shit out of luck since your not 50+

They don't have any evidence or reason to suspect you don't have the "appropriate" income to stay.  They don't provide a way to demonstrate it, either - refuse to look at bank-statements, etc (which would be accepted at any Thai consulate). 

 

One fellow with 200K Baht worth of cash was denied recently - so even enough money for his full visit was deemed "not appropriate"?  No.  Its just criminal behavior by thugs hiding behind uniforms, running their own agenda - because they were paid-off to do it, and/or just hateful xenophobes.

 

4 hours ago, JimmyTheMook said:

Bottom line is you were living in Thailand under the pretense of being a tourist - 

those days are long over.

What "non tourist" activity, not permitted to Tourists by Thai law, are you claiming to know he was doing?  You are aware there are no legal restrictions on "time as a tourist" in Thai law, correct?  And "those days" are not over, because there are still many entry-points not run by criminals - where actual Thai law is followed.  Years of reports from those with no issues.

 

2 hours ago, Misty said:

OP says he's been living in Thailand for 11 years, so if he was earning money, he would be earning it here in Thailand - not abroad.  Or did I miss something.

Also said he spends months elsewhere at a time, and doesn't need to work.

 

1 hour ago, nightfox said:

Another OP who thinks because he can read and wright Thai is above the law thinking he can live in Thailand with a tourist visa and visa exempt..When will people learn

No, he can actually read the law, and knows it is the IOs who are breaking it - not him.  When will those sucking-up law-breaking IOs ever bother to read the Immigration Act? 

 

To deny on "not having appropriate means of living" requires immigration either have evidence this is the case, or specify what the applicant needs to carry to show to contradict the assertion.  Otherwise, every visitor arriving visa-exempt or with a  tourist, ed, or non-O visa should be denied-entry for this reason. 

 

They cannot have it both ways.  Either the rule is "there is no way to meet this requirement, so no one gets in" - OR - "we have evidence you don't meet the requirement ..." (cite evidence here), followed by, "...  please provide the following to the IO to show otherwise ..."

[BritManToo]

51 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

When you take up residence in another country you are not a tourist, no matter how rich you are! 

I repeat, there are special visas to allow such residence and good reasons for people to be properly identified as a resident, not a temporary entrant.

If that's the case, why don't immigration stamp 'wrong VISA/improper reason for entry' on the refused person's passport?

Why are they stamping 'no means of supporting themselves in Thailand' when the guy arrives with a wallet full of money?

[BritTim]

14 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

I am under the impression that TM11 is for persons who fall under section 22 of the immigration act. Persons who have actually entered the Kingdom , and does not cover persons denied entry.

Read Section 22 again carefully. It specifically outlines the procedure for appealing denied entry according to reasons specified in Section 12 of the Immigration Act. Although the appeal would almost certainly be denied (but perhaps not if sufficiently publicised before the decision was made) I do not think use of Section 12 (2) for people who are financially secure really stands up to scrutiny for those with visas. The argument that immigration on entry cannot judge someone's financial situation falls down on several grounds. First, it is not immigration's job to make that determination. That is the job of the consulate that issued the visa. Secondly, the immigration official is making clear to denied arrivals that the denial has nothing to do with their financial status, except that it is being used as a pretext to enforce non existent rules.

[BritTim]

2 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

If that's the case, why don't immigration stamp 'wrong VISA/improper reason for entry' on the refused person's passport?

Why are they stamping 'no means of supporting themselves in Thailand' when the guy arrives with a wallet full of money?

I am actually surprised they are not trying Section 12 (1) as the reason for denied entry. First, that cannot be appealed. Secondly, an argument (even if bogus) for saying a tourist visa is not a valid visa for their extended stay in Thailand can at least logically be argued, rather than claiming someone independently wealthy cannot afford their stay.

[cerox]

For me it seems if you do not use visa-exempt or tourists visas too often, you are fine. Also DMK should be avoided.

For below 50y of age like you and me that means ED visa or elite card.

Both is around the same cost per year, the ED visa is more hassle to organize each year, less flexible within the study period but you stay flexible in the long-term and do not need to buy 20years.

If you like VIetnam, I would say just do not go to Thailand that often - or if you want to, you have to buy elite card. ED visa will result in problems if you go away too often.

 

Interesting "prediction" that someone mentioned about proving residence elsewhere. But if that ever happened I would just go to Vietnam / Philippines. That is why I would advice people not to get too attached here - not having too much stuff, condo, cars etc. You should be able to leave within a few months if another place becomes much more favorable.

[freedomnow]

No matter what on the db8 about long-stay on tourista/ed...he got a great run for his money !!

11 years, try doing that anywhere in the world and that is exactly why so many choose LoS to stay long-term if they can.

However, it looks to be ending from June with many hot topic threads coming....

 

Now if I can just pull the trigger and marry my g/f or do a midnight run...'flip of the coin'

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, Mansell said:

The issue here wasn't the Aussie guy, it is the nasty twisted attitude of the Immigration and some in particular who others on here have run into these same people. Most of you cannot speak Thai, and very few can read Thai. This guy is in his thirties and is way ahead of most of us here who have been living here for decades. Cut him some slack and crawl back into your holes.

I actually started a thread about this, why do so many posters on this forum wish other people (they don't know) harm?

It's certainly a strange phenomenon. 

[cerox]

What happens in June?

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, cerox said:

Interesting "prediction" that someone mentioned about proving residence elsewhere. But if that ever happened I would just go to Vietnam / Philippines. That is why I would advice people not to get too attached here - not having too much stuff, condo, cars etc. You should be able to leave within a few months if another place becomes much more favorable.

Sadly your advice is 9 years too late for me.

I already have 2 Thai kids and a house, but at least the house has 22 years left on the home loan, the bank will be out of pocket more than me.

[4675636b596f75]

3 hours ago, mstevens said:

Good on you for refusing to sign the document and making a stand on that

He made a stand based on his own reading of written Thai.  Why would anyone sign something in a language they do not understand?