After the Purge is Complete, Will CM be Better or Worse for Those Retirees Who Remain?

[Naam]

12 hours ago, Krataiboy said:

On 4/18/2019 at 7:23 PM, Naam said:

being a German i don't consider myself "white". 

Because. . . 

...white people don't exist.

[MickeyDelux]

23 hours ago, DLock said:

f the new laws to serve to rid the country of those that can't afford to be here and contribute to Thailand in a meaningful way...then thats a good thing.

This is the point that many don't want to address.

 

It is not a 'new law'.

 

Thai immigration hasn't done anything.

 

The foreign gov'ts are no longer providing a means to qualify for a loop hole in the Thai law.

 

So who's the bad guy?

 

Everyone is the bad guy, except for the person that has been knowingly and repeatedly using a loop-hole for years and years.

 

You say that since I follow the rules Thai immigration has put in place it gives me a 'high and mighty' attitude or gives me a 'since of superiority' just goes to show how delusional your thinking actually is.

 

Best Wishes

Edited April 20, 2019 by MickeyDelux

[GeorgeCross]

29 minutes ago, MickeyDelux said:

This is the point that many don't want to address.

 

It is not a 'new law'.

 

Thai immigration hasn't done anything.

 

The foreign gov'ts are no longer providing a means to qualify for a loop hole in the Thai law.

 

So who's the bad guy?

 

Everyone is the bad guy, except for the person that has been knowingly and repeatedly using a loop-hole for years and years.

 

You say that since I follow the rules Thai immigration has put in place it gives me a 'high and mighty' attitude or gives me a 'since of superiority' just goes to show how delusional your thinking actually is.

 

Best Wishes

 

seems to me they came up with a solution that was win win for everyone - easy for us (show bank statements) and easy for them to verify (thai bank)

 

i mean, we can't really expect them to know the statement format of every bank in the world!! many countries like thailand don't use roman numerals nevermind thai ones!

 

(and for the record getting 12 statements sent over from abroad through the post is MUCH harder than you think - ask anyone trying to get their tilak over to the UK to confirm that, its been a pain in the ass for me i'm like 3 months behind already and 1 has gone missing!!)

 

they could have just thrown us all under a bus and said 'not my problem' and demanded we all put 800K in the bank

 

under the circumstances the solution is far from perfect but its certainly could have been worse

 

 

 

[luckyluke]

22 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

they could have just thrown us all under a bus 

I remember hours/days after 3 embassies decided to not issue Letter of Income/Affidavit anymore, I read here "Immigration have to do something". 

 

They indeed did, leaving the Letter of Incomes/Affidavit a possibility for all countries,

making special rules for 3 countries in particular. 

 

As mention here above, not perfect, at least not for everyone. 

 

I still can obtain a Letter of Income, but also transfer monthly 2000 Euros to Thailand and this since 2000.

 

Will there be further adjustments? 

 

Probably, soon or later, maybe no Letter of Income anymore for no-one , and maybe more than 2000 Euro monthly. 

 

Will see. 

 

[symiotic]

13 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

price inflation which puts a financial squeeze on those further down the food chain.

 

The second thing I think you fail to recognize is that having 'x' amount of money in the bank or showing 'x' amount of money coming into a bank account doesn't necessarily mean that someone who meets those requirements is actually spending any more than the next guy. 

Finally someone who gets it the greatest threat to this country...   inflation!  I've got motorcycle drives around here getting paid 10 baht per ride & my wife who has relatively ok job offers a 5% salary increase once every 5 years - this is the normal people.  Their Prime Minister is only consistent on one thing: keep foreign investors happy.  If you have inequality, growth = inflation & Thailand is one of the most heavily skewed societies.  They know full well it is a trick saying "higher wages" when inflation will strip them of this difference and beyond.

The Second paragraph yes it's 'Velocity of money'.  I do not have so much money but what I do, it flys around.  Do they not know what the Economic studies say whether it is 400,000,000 stuck in an offshore account or 400-800,000 stuck in a Thai bank account, it is not moving into community so it achieves nothing, literally 'it goes nowhere'. 

It is the Foreign Real Estate Developers buying up Thai-land that puts pressure on this country.  If you are not someone who profits off 10 lots of 20 Rai of leased land to hide in a bank account so you can abuse the purchasing power, then you are not the problem, Immigration!

[MickeyDelux]

39 minutes ago, symiotic said:

Do they not know what the Economic studies say whether it is 400,000,000 stuck in an offshore account or 400-800,000 stuck in a Thai bank account, it is not moving into community so it achieves nothing, literally 'it goes nowhere'. 

You've missed the point. The purpose is to show the individual, in this case the visa applicant, has demonstrated they have the financial wherewithal to live in the Kingdom. 

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, MickeyDelux said:

This is the point that many don't want to address.

 

It is not a 'new law'.

 

Thai immigration hasn't done anything.

 

The foreign gov'ts are no longer providing a means to qualify for a loop hole in the Thai law.

 

So who's the bad guy?

 

Everyone is the bad guy, except for the person that has been knowingly and repeatedly using a loop-hole for years and years.

 

You say that since I follow the rules Thai immigration has put in place it gives me a 'high and mighty' attitude or gives me a 'since of superiority' just goes to show how delusional your thinking actually is.

 

Best Wishes

Being able to bank in the US vs being forced to bank in Thailand is the problem.  This is what was changed at Thai Immigration.  It's not about some "loop-hole."  It's about immigrations latest plan to enhance the Thai banks at the expense of western retirees. 

 

I'm not comfortable depositing 800,000 baht in a third world banking system, and there are many more that feel the same way.  For those who don't invest in the US or Europe, and are okay with 800,000 baht in a Thai bank drawing little to no interest along with not being fully insured, then good for you.

 

Following the rules Thai Immigration has put in place has always been over the top, with nonsensical 90 day reporting, TM forms, and of course having to apply for a one year visa extension year after year.  

 

When immigration came up with not allowing westerns to keep ($25,000) in a western bank, and instead depositing this amount in a Thai bank is where they went too far with many people.  So this is why so many westerners are leaving Thailand.  It's not about "out with the bad and in with the good."  It's more about common sense Mickey. ????

 

   

 

 

[MickeyDelux]

15 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

I'm grateful for the opportunity to engage in a more tempered dialogue with you.

 

The first thing I'd like to address is the idea that how much you consume somehow correlates with your social value or contribution. That is a very Western and archaic mindset. It certainly doesn't square well with Buddhist values. When you consider the environment alone, the exact opposite argument can be made: the less you consume, the greater your value. You're not driving around in a V-8 SUV spewing carbon emissions into the air, you're not dining on filet mignon steaks which are environmentally inefficient and wasteful, you're generating less plastic and toxic waste which pollutes the environment, you're home wasn't built with old growth teakwood, etc., etc. A heavy consumer also contributes to demand for goods and services and price inflation which puts a financial squeeze on those further down the food chain.

 

The second thing I think you fail to recognize is that having 'x' amount of money in the bank or showing 'x' amount of money coming into a bank account doesn't necessarily mean that someone who meets those requirements is actually spending any more than the next guy. It's entirely possible that someone who has 800K in the bank is spending less than someone who might be struggling to comply with the new immigration requirements. For example, someone might have bought a condo (worth more than your house) several years ago. They were fully and honestly able to comply with the once a year 800K financial requirement that was in place at the time they bought the condo. With a modest degree of frugality they were able to replenish the 800K each year, and in the near future they planned to start collecting a pension which would completely resolve this problem. So it's misguided to assume that those who meet these requirements are necessarily "contributing" or spending more than others.

 

A third thing which I would like to take you to task for is your insensitivity to the fact that sometimes life throws people unexpected curve balls, and your seeming lack of awareness that life might throw you a curve ball in the future as well. One divorce, medical problem, casualty loss, business failure, job loss, currency devaluation, stock market plunge, or slashing of entitlement program and you could easily find yourself in the same boat as the people you deem aren't worthy of being here. I'm not British, but I have a lot of sympathy for those who were hit with a 30% devaluation of the Pound. So showing a little empathy might be a smart hedge in the karma dept.

 

I'm not hanging on by my fingernails to stay here nor has my future ability to stay here been imperiled by anything immigration has done. Before moving here, I tried to consider every possible contingency I could think of that might effect my income: possible stock market, currency and interest rate change scenarios were endlessly evaluated in order to make sure I would be comfortable here. But when Thailand said it would let people over 50 or who had a family connection live here they induced people to put down roots, and implicity (if not explicitly) caused people to believe that that could stay here for the rest of their lives if they met those requirements. People made emotional and financial investments in Thailand which benefited the country enormously, and now, when many of those people who made those investments are older and more vulnerable, Thailand appears to be changing the criteria for living here in an abrupt, high-handed, and callous manner, effectively playing with people's lives.

 

It's one thing to say from now on everyone who is allowed to stay here has to meet such and such a criteria. No one would dispute Thailand's right to do that. But when criteria is imposed retroactively it can cause genuine dislocation in people's lives.

 

Adding insult to injury are this small gaggle of forum trolls who applaud immigration's actions, which is part of the reason why there was such a strong negative reaction to your post. My resentment is directed at immigration for their insensitivity to the retirement community, as well as directed at the handful of posters who amuse themselves by braying all day about how they are as yet unfazed by these changes. The operative words being 'as yet,' as who knows what changes await down the pike.

 

Just to circle back to my earlier point about how being a good consumer doesn't make you a good person, I'd like to just share the following and ask that you just consider exploring this perspective. I've lived here since 2003, and I have a very ample financial cushion. Nevertheless, there have been several periods of time (sometimes stretching into years) where I have practiced frugality. Sometimes it was done because the global economy looked like it was melting down, sometimes it was done because it looked like I might have to unexpectedly repatriate, and on at least one occasion it was done just to see what living on a tight budget similar to my neighbors would feel like. What I just want to share with you is that during those periods of frugality I often experienced a heightened sense of spirituality and humbleness which I feel was a blessing to have been able to experience.

Edited 14 hours ago by Gecko123

you wrote a lot without making any valid points.

 

The economy is based on people earning and spending money.

 

The Buddhist ceremonies and temples I've been to have always cheerfully accepted my cash gifts and occasionally a cash donation was required from me when visiting a Buddhist temple.

 

I only spoke of how I spent my money. How you spend your money is your business. If someone chooses to make an investment in Thailand, say in real estate, they should also perform due diligence and evaluate their risks. The only sure things in life are death and taxes.

 

Anything and many things happen in a persons lifetime. I'm at retirement age, I've experienced ups and downs. I choose to follow the rules Thai Immigration has put in place. Those people who knowingly and repeatedly have violated the law are experiencing 'karma' from their choices. How much empathy should be given to someone that repeatedly broke the law for years and years, and during that time did nothing to mitigate their situation? The only change is that they no longer have access to an affidavit showing they meet the Thai Immigration requirement. There is no new requirement.

 

Finally, what I said is that I contribute to the economy and help others by using the money I have.

 

Best Wishes.

[moe666]

As usual a thread has turned into mudslinging and name calling.

[Krataiboy]

10 hours ago, Naam said:

...white people don't exist.

Yes they do. Just ask the non-whites about them and their privilege.

[MickeyDelux]

3 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Being able to bank in the US vs being forced to bank in Thailand is the problem.  This is what was changed at Thai Immigration.  It's not about some "loop-hole."  It's about immigrations latest plan to enhance the Thai banks at the expense of western retirees. 

You're not forced to do anything by Thai Immigration. These are the requirements to live here. If you're not comfortable putting the ฿800k in a Thai bank don't do it. Just prove you meet the income requirement.  You have the freedom of choice. No one ever complained about the laws when they were able to circumvent the requirements. What's sad is that so many western's from 1st world economies have found themselves without the financial where-with-all in their 'retirement' to meet the requirements of, as you've said, 3rd world Thailand. 

[Trujillo]

Um, but there is no purge happening, so this entire thread is total nonsense. 

 

After the aliens invade earth, will the humans still alive after the slaughter be better off moving to Chiang Mai? 

 

 

 

"...during those periods of frugality I often experienced a heightened sense of spirituality and humbleness which I feel was a blessing to have been able to experience."

 

Oh, classic! A heightened sense of spirituality because you pretend you can't afford to eat good food? Wear crappy, second-hand clothes? Did you move into a hostel?

 

Haha...I believe the technical term for this is "slumming." 

[CMNightRider]

55 minutes ago, MickeyDelux said:

You're not forced to do anything by Thai Immigration. These are the requirements to live here. If you're not comfortable putting the ฿800k in a Thai bank don't do it. Just prove you meet the income requirement.  You have the freedom of choice. No one ever complained about the laws when they were able to circumvent the requirements. What's sad is that so many western's from 1st world economies have found themselves without the financial where-with-all in their 'retirement' to meet the requirements of, as you've said, 3rd world Thailand. 

Just prove I meet the income requirement you say, lol.  Well, Mickey there seems to be the problem because immigration won't allow me to show my monthly income going into a western bank.  They want to see it deposited into a third world Thai bank.  

 

That is where they are attempting to force westerners to either deposit 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht monthly into a Thai bank or they won't renew the one year visa extension.  

 

  

 

 

[Trujillo]

"Third world Thai bank,".... If you say, but then again, if you actually have the money, this is how the game is played here. 

 

Sure, I'd rather be spending my 800K a year on high class whores and fine wines, but that's the price you pay for a visa. 

 

I don't see the rub. 

[Sparkles]

There is no purge as such just the constant moving of the goal posts which if you have been here a while is nothing new.

 

Another example is the TM 30 nonsense .A law dragged out of the 70's which caused a few of us to have to cough up 1,600 baht.I got pinged even though I had been at the same address for 9 years,the fellow in front of me ,a man from Holland 27 years at the same address and had only been back to his home country once a decade ago.

 

I put it on the officer exactly what is was a scam to collect money to which she mumbled "Orders from Bangkok" hardly a denial.

 

Its their game we just have to play it or move on

[mikey88]

My experience is that about 3 or maybe 4 people in my network are making other plans...only one because of the money...the others because of pollution.

[Trujillo]

That statement is meaningless unless we know at least the population of your "network."

[mngmn]

7 hours ago, MickeyDelux said:

The Buddhist ceremonies and temples I've been to have always cheerfully accepted my cash gifts and occasionally a cash donation was required from me when visiting a Buddhist temple

Are you sure the temples were Buddhist? They sound more like branches of 'Enlightenment R Us' to me.

[mania]

10 hours ago, CMNightRider said:

Just prove I meet the income requirement you say, lol.  Well, Mickey there seems to be the problem because immigration won't allow me to show my monthly income going into a western bank.  They want to see it deposited into a third world Thai bank.  

 

That is where they are attempting to force westerners to either deposit 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht monthly into a Thai bank or they won't renew the one year visa extension.  

 

  

 

 

I think the simple explanation is to not say income requirement alone but income "in" Thailand to pay for your stay requirement

Otherwise your like the guy saying I have lots of money but... I left it in my other pants....in my other country ????

 

Yes I am sure many will say they can exist on less than 65k so could I but...65K/800k for retired or 40k/400k for married is what it is.

 

Remember it might have been partly the change in rules due to the Embassies realizing many were swearing to a lie....aka: "I have lots of money ...just not here" ????

 

But it was also the FACT that too many falangs end up with go fund me pages after they need Thai health care etc. Must be because they don't have any money in a

" third world Thai bank"  yet where do they live?

Edited April 20, 2019 by mania

[bkk6060]

On 4/17/2019 at 5:45 PM, Kelsall said:

people 50+ yo are leaving CM due to the changes in the Immigration laws.

Bogus with no evidence or substance.

In fact, I bet there has been an increase.

[rott]

On 4/19/2019 at 1:29 PM, tlandtday said:

That is one of the most arrogant misguided original posts I have seen on Thai Visa.  I think those leaving will likely be happier to get away from these attitudes.

Which post was that?

[5633572526]

On 4/18/2019 at 8:58 AM, Kelsall said:

Sorry, gang I know several and I don't know that many people overall.  People are leaving.

I think the air quality would be the motivation for me to leave CM

[CMNightRider]

7 hours ago, mania said:

I think the simple explanation is to not say income requirement alone but income "in" Thailand to pay for your stay requirement

Otherwise your like the guy saying I have lots of money but... I left it in my other pants....in my other country ????

 

Yes I am sure many will say they can exist on less than 65k so could I but...65K/800k for retired or 40k/400k for married is what it is.

 

Remember it might have been partly the change in rules due to the Embassies realizing many were swearing to a lie....aka: "I have lots of money ...just not here" ????

 

But it was also the FACT that too many falangs end up with go fund me pages after they need Thai health care etc. Must be because they don't have any money in a

" third world Thai bank"  yet where do they live?

I wonder why Thai Immigration in the US doesn't require to deposit 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht monthly in a Thai bank to qualify for a one year retirement visa?  They just want to see the money in a US bank or your monthly income such as in monthly pensions and social security.  

 

Well, the reason Thai Immigration doesn't have this financial scheme when applying for a visa from the states, is no one in their right mind would deposit $25,000 in a Thai bank for a one year visa, lol.  

 

It always surprises me to see another western expat defending the idiotic rules and regulations of Thai Immigration.  What is even worst, is when they post smug comments about how smart they are to follow all the rules immigration can think up, and amuse themselves at the thought why everyone doesn't just go along to get along with these fools.

 

To all you feather merchants that seem to live in a bubble, yes there is a lot of western expats pulling out of Thailand every month.  I'm sure immigration is not concerned with this because the ones who choose to stay will contribute a windfall for the Thai banks.  Not exactly what I would call a good investment choice but evidently some think it is, lol.    

[CharlieH]

Flame comment removed.

[mania]

1 hour ago, CMNightRider said:

I wonder why Thai Immigration in the US doesn't require to deposit 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht monthly in a Thai bank to qualify for a one year retirement visa?  They just want to see the money in a US bank or your monthly income such as in monthly pensions and social security.  

 

Well, the reason Thai Immigration doesn't have this financial scheme when applying for a visa from the states, is no one in their right mind would deposit $25,000 in a Thai bank for a one year visa, lol.  

 

It always surprises me to see another western expat defending the idiotic rules and regulations of Thai Immigration.  What is even worst, is when they post smug comments about how smart they are to follow all the rules immigration can think up, and amuse themselves at the thought why everyone doesn't just go along to get along with these fools.

 

To all you feather merchants that seem to live in a bubble, yes there is a lot of western expats pulling out of Thailand every month.  I'm sure immigration is not concerned with this because the ones who choose to stay will contribute a windfall for the Thai banks.  Not exactly what I would call a good investment choice but evidently some think it is, lol.    

Well for myself I am not defending Thai Immigration but I do realize it is their country to do as they choose.

 

Why Thai Consulates in the USA allow initial visa without money in Thai bank?

Maybe because you are not in Thailand?

https://thaiembdc.org/consular-services/non-immigrant-visas/non-immigrant-category-oa/

But See #6? They still want it in some form &  later when you extend you know what form they want then

 

 

Bottom line? Thailand? Their ball ...their court...You want to live/play there? You guessed it ....their rules

 

Lastly I will say again while you may be a perfect upstanding guy...many who came before you may not have been & Thailand for whatever reason

has toughened up the financial requirements for long term expats. Again...Their game

 

For my wife & I we had enough back in 2016 & sold our Chiang Mai condo, business, Truck, Bikes etc. the works...moved back to USA & just visit as we have our country home there by her family & a few months a year now is good enough ????

Glad we left when we did as we thought the whole Junta thing was going too long at 2 years back then. Now look? 4 years+ who knows whats next eh?

Edited April 21, 2019 by mania

[Sparkles]

8 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Bogus with no evidence or substance.

In fact, I bet there has been an increase.

People from the UK,Europe and the US still moving into our village in inceasing numbers .When you look at the mess the UK is in over Brexit and the cess pit the White House has become is I'm not at all surprised

[soalbundy]

purge?

[Kelsall]

post deleted

Edited April 21, 2019 by Kelsall

[stament]

Our of interest what rules have changed that has caused such panic?

[bkk6060]

20 hours ago, Sparkles said:

People from the UK,Europe and the US still moving into our village in inceasing numbers .When you look at the mess the UK is in over Brexit and the cess pit the White House has become is I'm not at all surprised

Yes, good observation.

I now know 10 families from Singapore who have moved to Thailand in the past year.

I do not know the details, but I guess Singapore has become very unfriendly and restrictive now.

 

For every person/family who cannot qualify for the Visa requirements, there are many more who actually can easily qualify and are coming.

 

If it is a "purge", may ultimately be a good thing for this country....